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New Graduate Veterinarians Wanted

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by NStarz, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    Are you:

    -a veterinarian that has graduated from an AVMA accredited school in the last 5 years?
    -being crushed by your student loan payments?
    -frustrated with the sprouting up of new veterinary schools with a seeming lack of high standards?
    -concerned about the future of the profession?
    -willing to make an awesome video?

    PM me :)
     
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  3. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    maybe....I would need to know more...
     
  4. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    The AVMA COE's position as accrediting body for veterinary schools has come up for review. A group of veterinarians is looking to inspire others to write letters to NACIQI (the governing body that grants accrediting rights to organizations) during the open comment period. Obviously there are a lot of concerns surrounding the profession at present time, and there is concern that the AMVA serving as accrediting body for veterinary schools is a conflict of interest and is not in the best interest of veterinarians. So they are thinking something similar to the ice bucket challenge in terms of a short viral video explaining your story and why these issues are important to you.

    Even if you are not interested in making a video, it's important that everyone gets their opinion out there. If you are in support of the AVMA COE, write a letter. If are not in support of the AVMA COE, write a letter. This is our profession and we deserve a voice in it.
     
    #3 NStarz, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  5. MooVet

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    Just wanted to add that both veterinarians AND veterinary students get a say during the open comment period! There's a form here: http://www.vetuscope.com/ to submit your comments directly to NACIQI.
     
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  6. bbeventer

    bbeventer Illinois 2016
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    Interesting though... "
    If the COE does a good job, the Department of Education recognizes that by letting students at accredited schools take out unlimited federal student loans.

    But the COE is unable to do a good job of holding schools accountable, so it should lose recognition."

    So say COE loses its ability to accredit schools, does that mean all the current students in the system lose their financial aid, because that would present a major issue.
     
  7. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    I'm sure something would be worked out. That is definitely not ideal for anyone.
     
  8. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    To me this brings up more questions than answers. The link above does not give much information at all, just asks people to submit their opinion on whether or not COE should keep the ability to accredit vet schools. Well, right now, based on what they have posted on that website, yes COE should keep that ability.

    Why? Because there are zero answers or thoughts put into what happens if COE does not keep that power. Who will accredit vet schools? Is that agency qualified to accredit vet schools? Does the new accreditation body know what a vet school needs? What the curriculum should be like? What is important in veterinary education?

    Also, what happens with financial aid as someone mentioned above?

    What happens to schools' current accreditation? Do schools keep accreditation? Do they immediately have to go through a new accreditation process? How will that impact the vet students currently enrolled at the schools?

    I am hesitant to send in anything without knowing who exactly is behind this... there is no information on that webpage about who is supporting this, why they are doing this or even their own opinions behind it.

    I clicked around and all I get to is a facebook page called "Under the Microscope: Professional Issues in Veterinary Medicine" that only says it was created to "intent of this page is to post timely information about current veterinary professional events". The page is brand new and the only thing so far is this thing about how vet schools are accredited with no information about their own thoughts/opinions/intents/etc. There isn't even any information as to who they are. Are they veterinarians? I am assuming yes but they sure don't say who they are or what makes them qualified to discuss issues within the veterinary community. I am sure their heart is in the right place, but I think they are putting the horse in front of the cart.
     
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  9. bbeventer

    bbeventer Illinois 2016
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    Very well summed up.
    Am I happy with how the AVMA is handling the current state of the profession? No. But do I think the government can handle it any better? Hell no. I think this problem needs to be solved from the inside and not the outside.
     
  10. MooVet

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    Sorry, I should have been more specific. I just popped the link in because Nstarz mentioned submitting comments. It wasn't really meant to be an educational resource.

    As for who is behind it, I know Dr. Eden Myers of www.justvetdata.com is one of several vets working on this project. The issue as I understand it is that COE is: 1) heavily dependent on the AVMA for funding/staffing/operational support, and therefore biased, and 2) becoming quite loose with its own accreditation policies and accrediting these new veterinary schools left and right without giving enough attention to the quality of the education being provided and the impact of new schools on the profession. Basically, it boils down to the fact that the veterinary school accreditation system is becoming too focused on money and politics, at the expense of what is best for the profession.

    I should add that this isn't something that Dr. Myers and her colleagues cooked up out of the blue. The National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity (NACIQI), part of the US Department of Education, reviews accreditory bodies like COE every five years to ensure compliance. When the COE had its regular review in 2012, it failed to meet some of the necessary criteria, so NACIQI is now performing a more in-depth investigation to determine whether COE should continue to be the recognized council for accreditation of veterinary schools. They are accepting any and all comments from veterinarians and veterinary students until September 20, and the VetUScope project was created to encourage veterinary professionals to share their opinions so that NACIQI can make a decision based on what is best for our profession.

    I haven't been able to find much information on what will happen after COE loses its recognition, if it does. I suspect this is because this whole issue is relatively unprecedented and no one is really sure of what happens next. What everyone does agree on is that COE losing its recognition will give the veterinary profession a golden opportunity to establish a new accreditation committee that will work for the good of the profession and be completely autonomous - no AVMA or other outside influence whatsoever. If I had to guess, I would think that the currently accredited schools would be grandfathered in and maintain their accreditation until a new council was established to evaluate them. If schools were to lose accreditation in the future, I think the current students would be grandfathered in and would still graduate with accredited degrees - this was discussed earlier this year when a couple of schools were put on probation for failing to meet certain accreditation standards (can't find the link to the thread, unfortunately. maybe someone else can?). Those are just my guesses though, so take that with a grain of salt.

    Here's a basic rundown on the subject that I found useful: http://www.justvetdata.com/veterinary_accreditation Dr. Myers' website (www.justvetdata.com) has a lot of good info on current issues in vet med, including why the current accreditation process is a problem.

    I am pretty sure that the form I linked (www.vetuscope.com) can be used whether you're for or against the COE losing its recognition. Since it submits directly to NACIQI, I think you can just fill in your own comments - whatever they may be - and they will be received. If I find another route for contacting NACIQI I will post it, but I haven't seen one yet.
     
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  11. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    My problem is not that I disagree with COE not being the best source to accredit veterinary schools. My issue lies in that fact that there needs to be something already planned out and in place ready to go before the axe is brought down on the COE. Even worse than the COE accrediting schools would be to remove them, not have some of the issues I stated above already figured out and NOT have these schools grandfathered in. There is a lot of assumptions being made here as to what might happen instead of a straightforward plan of action as to what will happen. Having current vet students lose their financial aid or having veterinary schools suddenly losing accreditation completely and not having a plan of action is worse than having the COE remain in that position. In my personal opinion, assumptions as to what would happen if the COE is removed are not good enough. We need actual answers. I would hate to attempt to make a change for good (which I think removing COE might eventually be a good thing) and instead end up shooting ourselves in the foot.
     
  12. MooVet

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    I agree with this too. I'm really torn on the issue - on the one hand, it is an incredibly drastic and risky change and we have little to no understanding of what will come next. On the other hand, I'm sick and tired of looking at the elephant in the room. Everyone in vet med has known for at least a decade now that the profession is in trouble, but not a single thing has been done to address it. Maybe a drastic change is what is needed right now, and who knows when this opportunity will come around again. I'm holding out until the end of the comment period before I submit my thoughts one way or another. Hopefully VetUScope or some other organization will come up with more information in the meantime.
     
  13. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    I have been thinking about this for a while. I don't think it is right to make a drastic change with no understanding of what will come of it, there are too many risks and too many people that can be significantly hurt by attempting to make a change without a plan of action. The last thing you, me and I am sure anyone in the veterinary community wants to do is to damage the profession any more by jumping the gun, so to say.

    Now, this doesn't have to be an "oh no we lost our opportunity" if we don't do this right now immediately. As you said, these agencies are reviewed every 5 years, this gives us the opportunity to get a plan of action going so that we have a strong, well-thought, and concrete plan heading into this next time. We will have everything reviewed, we can research where to go next, what to do, who will become the accrediting agency, be sure students will be financially supported, etc.

    I honestly think this is a bad idea right now. A really bad idea. It is like seeing a train wreck before it even happens.
     
  14. Rwwilliams

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    I agree with you completely. It's ridiculous and very drastic to just begin the process of doing away with the COE without developing a backup method and organization first. Accreditation, as it is, is extremely difficult and any kind of decision from the COE has critics on both sides at the moment. A new organization will go through the same struggles, and we don't want them to blunder through mistake after mistake as a learning process and have our profession suffer as a result.
     
  15. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    I dunno, I'm not sure I like the idea of just letting this steam for another 5 years. It feels a bit too much like "not in my backyard" and passing the buck until another generation of vet students/vets has to deal with it. Honestly, who knows how many more veterinary schools will pop up in that time? We already had two this past year, looks like Alaska and Arizona are trying to start up something. I totally get that this is scary (it is for me, too). But I don't like that 1) the standards seem to be applied willy-nilly with no rhyme or reason and 2) the AVMA seems to have political influence over the COE. I don't think a restructuring of the COE (in which NACIQI mandates that the AVMA can have no part in its decision making process and that the COE must apply its standards for accreditation uniformly) would negatively benefit anyone (including current students). I think it would just lead to a stronger accreditation process. And I don't think the government would allow the entirety of the nation's current veterinary students to just not graduate into the profession--that would have severe impacts. NYVMS has a great summary and a proposition on how the accreditation process should be handled. They propose doing away with foreign accreditation, which is another topic in and of itself, but I definitely agree with their belief that current students at all AVMA accredited schools should be grandfathered into until such a time that a new accreditation process has been vetted. http://www.nysvms.org/general/custom.asp?page=accreditation#.VAi1Bv65pQ8.facebook


    I'm going to submit comments to NACIQI with a definite caveat that I feel a grandfathering clause should be included and students need to be ensured they maintain their federal loan eligibility.

    Honestly, if those two things were a non-issue, what would everyone's opinions be?
     
  16. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    I mean, it definitely needs to be addressed. I'm less upset its tied to the AVMA and more upset that schools can sue and win for the privilege of accreditation. If you have a group solely doing this, we should abide by their standards. While I think schools without clinics certainly turn out excellent vets, there is an inherent advantage in being able to walk down to clinics and watch experts in their field at work. I also think they should be cognizant of the issues currently facing vet med and make efforts to restrain schools from doing things solely for monetary gain at the cost of education.
     
  17. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    Absolutely. It's also really not fair to me that schools with a teaching hospital can get put on probation for not keeping their million dollar facility up to date while schools that use the distributive model don't have to worry about that--AND charge the same tuition to their students! Not fair at all.
     
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  18. bbeventer

    bbeventer Illinois 2016
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    Kinda on/ off topic. He brings up some really interesting points about the for profit schools popping up.
     
  19. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    I never said do nothing about it and shove it onto the next generations of vets to figure out. I do however disagree with pushing for something and just basing what will happen on a "hope" or "guess" or "prediction".... it is dangerous. And considering the impact it could have, it is simply too dangerous to risk. I am not saying sit back and go "meh, oh well"... I am saying take the time to create a rock solid, well thought out, constructed and concrete plan instead of risking destroying/ruining the profession even more than it already is. You don't put a horse in front of the cart for a reason.
     
  20. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    The bolded above is what bothers me. I don't think the COE's problem has anything to do with AVMA influence, I think it has much more to do with the threat of being sued again. Schools should not be allowed to sue for accreditation, the COE should be the final word/say, OR there should be an appeal process that the school can try to go through.
     
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  21. Escalla

    Escalla treading water
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    I don't see foreign accreditation being the problem per se. It's more the COA loans enabling the schools to take boatloads of people imo.

    But like you said, a different discussion.
     
  22. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    Absolutely. I think if accreditation wasn't attached to federal loan money, no one would want it (from a foreign veterinary school perspective, anyway).
     
  23. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    Rather certain people would still want the accreditation so they don't have to take the extra tests that foreign school graduates have to take. So anyone in a UK, EU, or Caribbean school that is currently accredited is going to still want accreditation... the loan money is definitely part of it, but being able to take the NAVLE and none of the other exams is another big thing.
     
  24. Escalla

    Escalla treading water
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    Yes and no. But I'm part of very much the exception with an accredited foreign school that doesn't accept Americans, not the rule, so I get where you're coming from. Loan money doesn't completely encompass the reasons behind accreditation in Canada -- it's more of a collaboration effort from what I understand.

    For-profit foreign schools that rely on that loan money though are obviously a bit different.
     
  25. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    I'm not really considering Canadian schools as part of this discussion--since the American Vet Med Assoc. definitely encompasses Canada! (though you may disagree). I'm speaking more about European, Caribbean, and others.

    Absolutely a perk, but not the reason the *schools* want the accreditation, ya know? I can see it being a deterrent to students wanting to attend a foreign institution but not for schools wanting tuition money.
     
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  26. Escalla

    Escalla treading water
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    The accreditation would help the schools attract students that want to write the NAVLE, but if most don't have the money to get there....

    Accreditation would become more of a showing of the quality of education and allow the graduates to practice in the USA/Canada.
     
  27. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    I still don't think foreign schools are the issue. After all, it was not a foreign school that sued to get their accreditation. I think you are attempting to solve a very much internal problem (the problem is with the schools in the US: increasing class sizes and demanding accreditation) by attacking schools that aren't even part of the issue. The foreign schools aren't suing for accreditation... All you do by eliminating the foreign institutions is further drive up tuition in the US (because they can, because more competition) and further drive the desire to increase class size within the US vet schools AND further increase the drive to open new schools in the US because we don't accredit foreign schools, so there will be more demand for more seats than there already is. Not only that, you really put a hamper on collaboration and work with foreign institutions that can have and do have good research and good information.

    You need to tackle the problem where the problem lies.... set a class size limit (this might even vary by school), set tuition limits, etc... for all schools that want to be accredited. You don't solve a problem by getting rid of something that isn't causing an issue.
     
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  28. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    Just as a funny note, because I noticed this (in blue below) in the above link:

    :eek:

    :laugh: Someone didn't edit too well over at NYSVMS...
     
  29. justavet

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    Hey. Great discussion.

    I don't know why our names disappeared off the page. I tagged Ryan to see about putting them back on- we tweaked the code to optimize for mobile and that block may not have gotten put back.
    There are 8 of us spearheading this particular effort, all midcareer DVMs. Bonnie Bragdon, Bob Nix, Don Woodman, Deb Taranik, Carl Darby, Ryan Gates, Ralph Pope and me, Eden Myers.

    For those concerned there isn't much info on the vetuscope website, check the resources page http://www.vetuscope.com/resources.html
    Those FAQ's however, do not address the good questions DVMDream brought up.

    No action by NACIQI will take effect immediately. Should NACIQI recommend withdrawal of recognition, there are procedures for appeal; there are also procedures to protect existing students and faculty at schools that lose accreditation should the COE lose their appeal.

    A new accrediting agency has to have been accrediting programs for two years before it's eligible for USDE recognition so that will also not happen immediately. So that would be an opportunity to help establish an agency that does answer to - and speak for- a broader group of stakeholders than just AVMA and AAVMC. Yes, the people who have been raising your tuition and crowding your classrooms for the past decade are now in charge of accrediting those same programs. I'm sorry but does that seem like a step in the right direction? Is it just me?

    If the decision is to hand COE a list of non-compliance items and another time period in which to address them, then there is opportunity to help COE come into compliance.

    We need to be informed, involved and organized so we're ready to take advantage of these opportunities. Dr. Robert Marshak has been raising awareness among the state veterinary associations and allied organizations. In addition to the set of FAQs on vetuscope.com there's this FAQ page by the New York State Vet Med Society, which emailed all it's members asking them to submit comments to NACIQI. The Ohio Vet med assn has sent its members a writeup, and California VMA is "considering its options, given that it has close ties with" NYSVMS. The American Association of Bovine Practitioners- the group that broke with the party line to point out that there was NOT in fact a shortage of veterinarians especially food animal veterinarians, and claiming such a shortage as a reason for starting new schools was wrong- is discussing it at their board meeting next week, after prolonged and significant discussion among the members on their listserv.

    This isn't just us as a small group of malcontents; we started a facebook group about a month ago, which now has over 30o members and has hosted a broad range of threads discussing many aspects of this. You can check it out here.
     
  30. NStarz

    NStarz Ohio State c/o 2016
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    I did not mean to attack foreign schools at all. I brought it up because Escalla brought it up. I agree that the problem lies in domestic schools. Just thought it added an interesting point to the discussion.
     
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