New guy needs a path forward

[Big Army]

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Sorry this is so long, if you want to skip my life story (not kidding) start reading at first break (I tend to be a little long winded at times)...


Non traditional student, yes that's me. I quit high school when I was 16 to sell Christmas Trees (true story) because at 16 I knew everything. At 17 I got the wild idea that I wanted to join the Navy so I stopped by a recruiters office but because I didn't have a High School diploma or a GED they wouldn't take me. I didn't let this minor set back deter me though, for three weeks later I took the GED test and pasted it with flying colors. I went back to the recruiters, GED in hand, took the ASVAB and 2 weeks later I was in boot camp. I found out later that I made the local paper because everyone thought it was so cool that I got my GED and joined the Navy before my High School class graduated; a fact that never even dawned on me. I served in the Navy for 5 years doing mainly Aviation Electronics and got out in 1995. Shortly after getting out I saw an add for a local school that was offering an Associated degree in Medical Laboratory Technology which sounded like fun and seven days later I was in class. That semester I took 17 credits and got a 4.0. I immediately fell in love with science and the medical field and knew I had to become a Doctor. I crammed as much schooling as I possibly could into those 2 years and actually completed 96 credits with a 3.73 GPA. I was accepted to Thomas Jefferson University to study what was then called Biotechnology now referred to Molecular Genetics. Unfortunately right before I was to start school my marriage fell apart and I was unable to attend the school (probably one of my biggest regrets in life). Due to my divorce I was forced to move back to my home state of Georgia and start fresh. My priorities were to get a job and find a place to live, school was to be put on the back burner for some time.
After September 11, 2001 I felt it was my duty to return to the service, so I joined the Georgia Army National Guard. I took some classes at a school in North Georgia (mostly Physics, and advanced Biology classes) but due to my new status as a Guard member I was forced to quit school when I was scheduled to deploy to Kuwait. Inevitably I was taken off of the deployment at the last second (something that has happened to me twice). From there I took some time off from school and started a business. In 2006 I became a Commissioned Officer, but I still didn't have my Bachelors Degree. I deployed to Iraq from 2007 to 2008 and upon returning to the states I enrolled myself at Excelsior College Online. In 2010 I finally graduated and earned my Bachelors of Science. Shooooo (it only took 15 years....) 3.56 Cumulative GPA



This just about brings me to the present. About six months ago I started getting the medical bug again but because of my age (now 39) I was just considering Physicians Assistant. I was speaking with one of our Army Docs, a crusty old Colonel, telling him my dreams and aspirations when he bestowed upon me some of his wisdom; he said to me "If you want to be a Doctor then don't become a PA be a Doctor". He then went on to say that even if I didn't finish my residency till I was 50 that, in todays age, most Doctors are working till they are 70 so I could get a good 20 years of practicing in. I was sold unfortunately two weeks later I was where I am now, in Afghanistan.

Now for the help in deciding my path forward. In all my research I have found one commonality between almost all Medical Schools is that they are require Organic 1 and Organic 2 (classes I never took). Obviously I need to take these classes but because of my current situation I can't do it right now. I have searched online for Organic classes but as far as I can tell non are offered (at least non with a lab... how wold you do a lab online?). The other issue is that I will not be getting home until October so the Fall semester at any "regular" colleges are out as well. What should I do?

Is there anyway for me to get these classes, prep for the MCAT, do my applications and still be able to make matriculate in 2013? Heck is it even possible for 2014?

What is the best path forward?

Thanks,

Shane

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Haha, this is funny to me because there is a thread right under yours with the same question, you're new, so it will slide...

I think it really comes down to, do you want to be a PA? I thought it would be a good compromise as well, less school, better job faster, etc... Here's why I decided what I did (I'm starting school at 35):

1. I worked in biotech for close to 15 yrs. Everyday I go in and get told what to do by a PhD. I never make any important decisions on my own, ever. I will never be my own boss, ever. I will never get to think for myself. I hated my job. To me, being in a decently paying clinical field looked pretty good, and the sooner the better. Until my friend was hospitalized at 33 with a sudden MI (he was 'dead'). I was in the room when the cardiologist, his PA, and his nurse came in, and it dawned on me that I would have a higher-paying, clinical job, but it WOULD BE THE SAME. I would still not be the boss, ever. I would still have to run my decisions past the boss, and if the boss didn't like my reasoning, etc, toooooo bad, because the boss holds the license not me.

2. I did not want to be relegated to sutures, runny noses, etc with very few complicated cases the rest of my life (this varies from place to place, but some hospital systems are very strict on what a PA is allowed to do)

3. I wanted more knowledge, I wanted to be "the cardiologist" not the people following him around. (I don't actually want to be a cardiologist, but that was part of my reasoning)

4. Lastly, I had a talk with my friend, who is an MD. She told me her starting salary, which is 20% higher than what I posted. So, she is making, as a starting salary ~3x what a PA will make in their first year out of school. While picking one over the other for money wasn't really the main thing, it was the nail in the coffin for me.

I am not trying to persuade you either way, I am just sharing why I did what I did. PAs are great, they are intelligent, play a huge roll in our health system that is increasing dramatically, can switch fields whenever they feel like it, etc... But you have to decide if you want to be the Doc or the PA...

You have to decide which is right for you, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do it because of a time issue. An extra 4yrs of work to actually be happy is so much more important than being unhappy for 30yrs of work! I want to look back at my life when I'm 70 and feel like I DID something, not look back and say "yeah, I hated my job for 30 years and was miserable"...

it kind of reminds me of the line from Transformers "Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car"

Some basic math here:
Average salary over 30 yrs as a doc: 180k, after taxes, that's 3.5mil
Average salary of a PA over 35 yrs, 100k, after taxes 2.45mil
Difference of 1.1 million dollars, even if you had 250k in debt and took 30yrs to pay it, and had no debt as a PA, you'd still make more as a physician.

 

[DrMidlife]

I think you're in great shape for MD apps. Start collecting faculty letters of recommendation. When you get back stateside, do some classroom upper div science (online coursework is stigmatized) and kill the MCAT. Do some volunteering at a US clinic or hospital. Then apply.

Here's a rough schedule for applying:
- April 201n: study the new MSAR, study med school websites, study SDN, and select target schools
- no later than May 201n: take the MCAT and order transcripts for AMCAS
- no later than July 201n: get your MCAT score & submit AMCAS app
- no later than August 201n: get your letters and secondaries submitted
- August 201n through March 201n+1: interviews
- August 201n+1: start med school

I'm starting at 46 this coming August. That Colonel is a smart guy.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Big Army]

Haha, this is funny to me because there is a thread right under yours with the same question, you're new, so it will slide...

I think it really comes down to, do you want to be a PA? I thought it would be a good compromise as well, less school, better job faster, etc... Here's why I decided what I did (I'm starting school at 35):

1. I worked in biotech for close to 15 yrs. Everyday I go in and get told what to do by a PhD. I never make any important decisions on my own, ever. I will never be my own boss, ever. I will never get to think for myself. I hated my job. To me, being in a decently paying clinical field looked pretty good, and the sooner the better. Until my friend was hospitalized at 33 with a sudden MI (he was 'dead'). I was in the room when the cardiologist, his PA, and his nurse came in, and it dawned on me that I would have a higher-paying, clinical job, but it WOULD BE THE SAME. I would still not be the boss, ever. I would still have to run my decisions past the boss, and if the boss didn't like my reasoning, etc, toooooo bad, because the boss holds the license not me.

2. I did not want to be relegated to sutures, runny noses, etc with very few complicated cases the rest of my life (this varies from place to place, but some hospital systems are very strict on what a PA is allowed to do)

3. I wanted more knowledge, I wanted to be "the cardiologist" not the people following him around. (I don't actually want to be a cardiologist, but that was part of my reasoning)

4. Lastly, I had a talk with my friend, who is an MD. She told me her starting salary, which is 20% higher than what I posted. So, she is making, as a starting salary ~3x what a PA will make in their first year out of school. While picking one over the other for money wasn't really the main thing, it was the nail in the coffin for me.

I am not trying to persuade you either way, I am just sharing why I did what I did. PAs are great, they are intelligent, play a huge roll in our health system that is increasing dramatically, can switch fields whenever they feel like it, etc... But you have to decide if you want to be the Doc or the PA...

You have to decide which is right for you, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do it because of a time issue. An extra 4yrs of work to actually be happy is so much more important than being unhappy for 30yrs of work! I want to look back at my life when I'm 70 and feel like I DID something, not look back and say "yeah, I hated my job for 30 years and was miserable"...

it kind of reminds me of the line from Transformers "Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car"

Some basic math here:
Average salary over 30 yrs as a doc: 180k, after taxes, that's 3.5mil
Average salary of a PA over 35 yrs, 100k, after taxes 2.45mil
Difference of 1.1 million dollars, even if you had 250k in debt and took 30yrs to pay it, and had no debt as a PA, you'd still make more as a physician.

I think I was completely settling for PA because I felt at the time that my age was a real roadblock but now I don't feel the same way. I am going to go to Medical School and I am going to be a Doctor!!! 😀

As for the money, that's cool and all but honestly, I'm going to let the US Army pay for my school and I'm going to serve as a Military Physician as long as they let me.

Thanks,

Shane

 

[Big Army]

I think you're in great shape for MD apps. Start collecting faculty letters of recommendation. When you get back stateside, do some classroom upper div science (online coursework is stigmatized) and kill the MCAT. Do some volunteering at a US clinic or hospital. Then apply.

Here's a rough schedule for applying:
- April 201n: study the new MSAR, study med school websites, study SDN, and select target schools
- no later than May 201n: take the MCAT and order transcripts for AMCAS
- no later than July 201n: get your MCAT score & submit AMCAS app
- no later than August 201n: get your letters and secondaries submitted
- August 201n through March 201n+1: interviews
- August 201n+1: start med school

I'm starting at 46 this coming August. That Colonel is a smart guy.

Best of luck to you.

This is what I was afraid of. I won't be able to start classes will January 2013 so there is no way I can take both my Organics before the application submission in Jul 2013. It looks like I will have to push everything back another year. So if I start take the MCAT in 2014 I won't be in school till 2015 (age = 43 😱). I just wish there was she way to do it by 2014.

On a side note, is it going to hurt me that my BS is from an Online College; only 15 credits came from that college? Also, how do you get facility letters from Professors that you haven't seen in as many as 15 years?

Thanks,

Shane

 

[DrMidlife]

This is what I was afraid of. I won't be able to start classes will January 2013 so there is no way I can take both my Organics before the application submission in Jul 2013. It looks like I will have to push everything back another year. So if I start take the MCAT in 2014 I won't be in school till 2015 (age = 43 😱). I just wish there was she way to do it by 2014.

You might be able to double up ochem, and gamble on doing the MCAT without having completed all of ochem. The 2nd half of ochem is light on the MCAT. Based on your GPA this doesn't sound completely ridiculous. (Usually it's ridiculous.)

If you want to get a preview of the MCAT, take a practice test, free, at www.e-mcat.com. Good MCAT prep courses are almost entirely worth the cost.

On a side note, is it going to hurt me that my BS is from an Online College; only 15 credits came from that college?

Nope. Nobody's going to question online coursework with Iraq on your app. Certainly not just a small amount. Note: order transcripts early.

Also, how do you get facility letters from Professors that you haven't seen in as many as 15 years?

Ask. And you have to get letters from your future ochem profs to show that you've still got it.

Best of luck to you.

 

[ljpm8224]

I think you're in great shape for MD apps. Start collecting faculty letters of recommendation. When you get back stateside, do some classroom upper div science (online coursework is stigmatized) and kill the MCAT. Do some volunteering at a US clinic or hospital. Then apply.

Here's a rough schedule for applying:
- April 201n: study the new MSAR, study med school websites, study SDN, and select target schools
- no later than May 201n: take the MCAT and order transcripts for AMCAS
- no later than July 201n: get your MCAT score & submit AMCAS app
- no later than August 201n: get your letters and secondaries submitted
- August 201n through March 201n+1: interviews
- August 201n+1: start med school

I'm starting at 46 this coming August. That Colonel is a smart guy.

Best of luck to you.

^^ just wanted to say that this is a really helpful post and a nice breakdown.

Good luck, Shane. Thanks for serving!
-31 y/o stateside medic 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

This is what I was afraid of. I won't be able to start classes will January 2013 so there is no way I can take both my Organics before the application submission in Jul 2013. It looks like I will have to push everything back another year. So if I start take the MCAT in 2014 I won't be in school till 2015 (age = 43 😱). I just wish there was she way to do it by 2014.

There's no sure way to do anything in this life, but there are plenty of sure ways *not* to do things. One sure way not to get into medical school is to try to do the app process fast instead of doing it right. Even though you feel like you're itching to start school ASAP because of your age, in the whole scheme of your career, starting medical school one year later will mean nothing. However, bombing organic chemistry and having to reapply a year later anyway while you do GPA repair will hurt your competitiveness tremendously. So don't be in such a hurry to start applying that you screw yourself over. With a 3.5+ GPA, you're already in a lot stronger of a starting position than many of your fellow nontrads are, and you'd be wise to keep it that way.

On a side note, is it going to hurt me that my BS is from an Online College; only 15 credits came from that college? Also, how do you get facility letters from Professors that you haven't seen in as many as 15 years?

As others have said, 15 credits from an online college will not sink your app. You should do as Dr. M suggested and take your organic classes stateside, and maybe a couple of upper level bio courses as well if you can fit them into your schedule. If you only can take one upper level science class, take biochemistry, but not until *after* you take organic chemistry.

For letters, you will ask one or more of your postbac profs. You will ask your colonel friend. You will ask other supervisors or recent professors who can attest to your work ethic, character, determination, and aptitude for a career in medicine. If you are not able to obtain a specific type of letter required by a specific medical school, you will email the admissions office of that medical school, and you will request, in writing, that you be permitted to submit a substitute letter. If it is a reasonable substitute (say, from a work supervisor instead of from a humanities prof), odds are good that the school will agree to accept the substitute letter.

There's no secret way to maximize your chances for medical school admissions; nontrads are subject to all of the same requirements and expectations as college kids. So do all of the necessary preparations in the proper order, and don't try to cut corners on things that are important, like your GPA and MCAT score, just to "save" a little time.

Hope this helps, and best of luck. 🙂

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Shane, there are others on here that started med school in their 40s. It isn't common, but it happens. I'll be finishing my residency just before I turn 43, oh how I wish I was younger... but I'm not, I am taking the cards I'm dealt and running with it...

You may not need to take both o-chems. I was looking at requirements for some random schools, and several have one semester of o-chem, and one of biochem... The big thing is the MCAT, (take this with a grain of salt), I took a bunch of MCAT practice tests on the AAMC website (35$/ea, well worth it), I haven't studied ochem for 15yrs... I got a 26Q, 10BS, 9VR, 7PS... my 10 in biological sciences (biology, ochem) was ALLLLL my bio knowledge, if I scored anything correctly in Ochem it was luck... I am not telling you to take the MCAT without Ochem, but maybe try a practice test and see where you land. Just a thought of mine... If you could take the MCAT sooner, and take Ochem before you matriculate, you *might* be able to move the time up... FWIW, my two state MD schools rejected me because of my 7 in physical sciences (physics, gen chem)... Sorry for the rambling...

Oh, and always listen to Q...

 

[Big Army]

Shane, there are others on here that started med school in their 40s. It isn't common, but it happens. I'll be finishing my residency just before I turn 43, oh how I wish I was younger... but I'm not, I am taking the cards I'm dealt and running with it...

You may not need to take both o-chems. I was looking at requirements for some random schools, and several have one semester of o-chem, and one of biochem... The big thing is the MCAT, (take this with a grain of salt), I took a bunch of MCAT practice tests on the AAMC website (35$/ea, well worth it), I haven't studied ochem for 15yrs... I got a 26Q, 10BS, 9VR, 7PS... my 10 in biological sciences (biology, ochem) was ALLLLL my bio knowledge, if I scored anything correctly in Ochem it was luck... I am not telling you to take the MCAT without Ochem, but maybe try a practice test and see where you land. Just a thought of mine... If you could take the MCAT sooner, and take Ochem before you matriculate, you *might* be able to move the time up... FWIW, my two state MD schools rejected me because of my 7 in physical sciences (physics, gen chem)... Sorry for the rambling...

Oh, and always listen to Q...

One cool thing is that I have had Biochem (crazy right?) because it was a requirement for my Medical Lab Tech degree. I "was" strong in school at Gen Chem and Bio and I also did well in Physics (although I can't say I remember much). I ordered the Kaplan 5 book review series a couple of days ago... Should be here this month, so I'll start brushing up and I'll take a couple of the practice tests to see where I stand. Like everyone says, I don't want to rush and risk not getting in, but if I think I'm prepared and can get the requirements I need done then I'll try. I spoke with my wife and she shares the same feelings as most of you do, in that, if it takes an extra year then so be it.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I know all of the practice tests I took, and my real test, were 75% bio, 25% o-chem, it could swing 70/30, but not much more than that... On my tests I scored 35% right on my o-chem, 85% correct on bio... a 26 isn't a great score, but I'm terrible with physics, and if I had a 9 or a 28, it would have been a much better score... either way, competitive for DO...

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

If you can start taking classes stateside in January 2013, then you could take the first semester of organic that spring, take the MCAT and then take the second semester over the summer. With the knowledge from the biochem class you've already taken you should be all right on the MCAT with just one semester of organic. If not, you could go to a college with fairly early summer sessions, take the second semester of organic there, take the MCAT and still be able to apply, although that would be later than ideal and might put your application at a disadvantage.

Some medical schools, like UW, will accept either a semester of organic and a semester of biochem or two semesters of organic. UW is tough to get into if you're not from the region, though.

 

[DrMidlife]

Some medical schools, like UW, will accept either a semester of organic and a semester of biochem or two semesters of organic. UW is tough to get into if you're not from the region, though.

W in this case means Washington state, I assume. UW also means Wisconsin.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

W in this case means Washington state, I assume. UW also means Wisconsin.

Right. I forgot about the other W state.

 

[Veritas86]

You have to decide which is right for you, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do it because of a time issue. An extra 4yrs of work to actually be happy is so much more important than being unhappy for 30yrs of work! I want to look back at my life when I'm 70 and feel like I DID something, not look back and say "yeah, I hated my job for 30 years and was miserable"...

it kind of reminds me of the line from Transformers "Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car"

This. This was my reasoning as well.