New MD school vs. more established DO school

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123GO

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Hello, just wondering about thoughts on this. I was accepted to Netter and also UNECOM. I really like both schools but I was wondering if one would give me better opportunity to specialize over the other/ more opportunity. I know both schools are somewhat focused on primary care. Thanks for any input.
 
:diebanana::bang::bang::annoyed::boom:


:help:

Honestly the first billion threads of this nature wasn't enough. Thanks op really needed this tread.

And go to freaking netter.
 
Whatever your heart desires.
 
I'd just check the match lists.
One MD school that I'm particularly interested (that has only had two graduating classes so far) sort-of mentions that their focus is primary care/internists, yet by their matchlist, plenty of students go on to do other stuff, so I think that is best to see what is possible or tends to happen.
 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...TSchaqaIaIQ9dUU5w&sig2=NZj8zeGEqh_H53CnLujNBA

Here's the charted outcomes of individuals that ranked programs in the ACGME match (the residency match that all US MDs go through, as well as most DOs). You might not completely understand it, but it is probably the most important thing to assess when choosing DO vs MD. MDs have a 90%+ match rate and independent applicants (DOs, IMGs, and reapplicants) have a 50%+ match rate (DOs are generally slightly higher, but still have similar numbers). There are many programs, especially in more competitive specialties, that wont even interview DOs.

Also, the reality is that the respect of the institution has a very minimal effect on matching, despite what med students will tell you. What really matters is MD vs DO/IMG, your scores, your deans letter, and for some specialties, your letters of rec.

IMO, it would be incredibly dumb to attend a DO school when you were accepted at an MD school unless you had a significant reason for doing so (wanting to do primary care is not a significant reason).
 
If you were my child, I'd say "flip a coin".

Where do you think you'll be the most comfortable over the next four years?

And who has the lower tuition?


123GO said:
Hello, just wondering about thoughts on this. I was accepted to Netter and also UNECOM. I really like both schools but I was wondering if one would give me better opportunity to specialize over the other/ more opportunity. I know both schools are somewhat focused on primary care. Thanks for any input.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
If you were my child, I'd say "flip a coin".

Where do you think you'll be the most comfortable over the next four years?

And who has the lower tuition?
Click to expand...


I love it. The goro kid standard! Im going to use it to pick my school.
 
Thank
Goro said:
If you were my child, I'd say "flip a coin".

Where do you think you'll be the most comfortable over the next four years?

And who has the lower tuition?
Click to expand...
I have to completely disagree with this recommendation for the specific argument of DO vs MD. If you were talking about MD school vs MD school I would absolutely be on board, but there are just way too many factors you are not taking into account.
 
Zebra Hunter said:
MDs have a 90%+ match rate and independent applicants (DOs, IMGs, and reapplicants) have a 50%+ match rate (DOs are generally slightly higher, but still have similar numbers). There are many programs, especially in more competitive specialties, that wont even interview DOs.
Click to expand...

This is pretty misleading - since DOs can also participate in the AOA match, most reputable osteopathic schools achieve overall match rates at or near 100%. Of course, the effects of the upcoming ACGME/AOA merger remain to be seen.
 
wh2k13 said:
This is pretty misleading - since DOs can also participate in the AOA match, most reputable osteopathic schools achieve overall match rates at or near 100%. Of course, the effects of the upcoming ACGME/AOA merger remain to be seen.
Click to expand...
Not really, the majority will not participate in the AOA match.
 
I do research with an MS2. The curriculum seems great, as do the projects. He says it is an innovative school that is still reminiscent of UConn or Yale. If you look at its faculty, those two schools are where they come from. Netter doesn't have any affiliated hospitals yet, does it? I really like the campus.
 
.
 
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Zebra Hunter said:
Here's the charted outcomes of individuals that ranked programs in the ACGME match (the residency match that all US MDs go through, as well as most DOs). You might not completely understand it, but it is probably the most important thing to assess when choosing DO vs MD. MDs have a 90%+ match rate and independent applicants (DOs, IMGs, and reapplicants) have a 50%+ match rate (DOs are generally slightly higher, but still have similar numbers).
Click to expand...

Zebra Hunter said:
Not really, the majority will not participate in the AOA match.
Click to expand...

Zebra Hunter said:
Yep, just making stuff up.
Click to expand...

I'm confused as to what you are confused about. You're either not understanding the AOA match or aren't articulating things clearly.

As was said already, most DO schools have analogous match rates as MD schools (high 90s to 100%) when considered both matches. The ACGME match rate for DOs is around 80% (not 50%), however it is lower than MD students. You may not realize that many of the most competitive DOs are shooting for the AOA match in the surgical subspecialties, derm, etc so this actually isn't the best metric to compare the two (often the top applicants are going AOA or lower tier applicants apply ACGME after failing to match AOA which occurs first). Quality of program and opportunity for fellowships makes more sense for comparison, but there isn't even an argument to be made there. There's also a difference in what you're seeing on the NRMP site - those numbers are for students that matched first time around. The US MD match rate is ~94% for that and then students, whether MD or DO, go through other means (SOAP) to end up around high 90s, which schools report. The difference between the two is more like ~14% match rate, not the 50% your implying.

I don't disagree with your main point of choosing Netter and that US MDs obviously have a better chance at matching to ACGME programs, I think you just don't fully understand the match for DOs.
 
He was claiming I made up that fact that the majority of DOs don't do the AOA match. However, fair assessment, and I stand corrected on the 50% figure, but my point is still valid. Why reduce your odds of matching in the ACGME match? And also, why reduce the options that are available to you.
 
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Zebra Hunter said:
He was claiming I made up that fact that the majority of DOs don't do the AOA match. However, fair assessment, and I stand corrected on the 50% figure, but my point is still valid. Why reduce your odds of matching in the ACGME match? And also, why reduce the options that are available to you.
Click to expand...

No one is arguing about which school to attend.

Just because you gave a good suggestion the premise on which you did so is false. You made up stuff. Kinda like solving a problem wrong on a test and accidentally coming up with the right answer.


You said DOs match at slightly higher then 50 percent which isn't true. I already showed you that CCOM for example matches 100%. You are making stuff up. You can't seem to grasp the concept that DOs match into acgme and AOA.

It doesn't matter where the majority goes acgme or AOA. The overall match rate is in the 90s which is fine and is the only relevant figure.
 
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Zebra Hunter said:
He was claiming I made up that fact that the majority of DOs don't do the AOA match. However, fair assessment, and I stand corrected on the 50% figure, but my point is still valid. Why reduce your odds of matching in the ACGME match? And also, why reduce the options that are available to you.
Click to expand...

By 2019 things are most likely going to be closer, if not equal as IMG's get phased out. ACGME would not have merged otherwise.
 
"It doesn't matter where the majority goes acgme or AOA. The overall match rate is in the 90s which is fine and is the only relevant figure."

Yes. Yes it does. ACGME residencies are by and large superior to AOA programs and its usually not even close. Fellowship opportunites, research opportunities, tertiary care and referral hospitals, etc

A match list with a couple AOA matches in podunk community hospital =/= ACGME community hospital and CERTAINLY not university hospital.

Yes i know there are exceptions to every rule but in this case they are few and far in between.
 
qwerty89 said:
"It doesn't matter where the majority goes acgme or AOA. The overall match rate is in the 90s which is fine and is the only relevant figure."

Yes. Yes it does. ACGME residencies are by and large superior to AOA programs and its usually not even close. Fellowship opportunites, research opportunities, tertiary care and referral hospitals, etc

A match list with a couple AOA matches in podunk community hospital =/= ACGME community hospital and CERTAINLY not university hospital.

Yes i know there are exceptions to every rule but in this case they are few and far in between.
Click to expand...

I guess I should have been more clear. It doesn't matter in terms of overall match percentages which I clearly was referring to. You can't just say 50 percent match acgme and that hardly any participate in AOA to try and make it look like half of DOs don't get a residency. Almost all DOs get residencies.

But generalizing and saying Acgme residency= good and AOA = bad isn't helpful either. Most AOA residencies exist to train primary care osteopathic physicians that practice in underserved areas and do a good job of that. If you used that metric to judge residencies AOA is far superior to acgme and that is what we need in this country.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
No one is arguing about which school to attend.

Just because you gave a good suggestion the premise on which you did so is false. You made up stuff. Kinda like solving a problem wrong on a test and accidentally coming up with the right answer.


You said DOs match at slightly higher then 50 percent which isn't true. I already showed you that CCOM for example matches 100%. You are making stuff up. You can't seem to grasp the concept that DOs match into acgme and AOA.

It doesn't matter where the majority goes acgme or AOA. The overall match rate is in the 90s which is fine and is the only relevant figure.
Click to expand...
Did you even read my quoted post? I am acknowledging my 50% figure is incorrect. Everything else about the premise of my argument is valid. I am not talking about the AOA match, I am talking about the ACGME match which more DOs are currently entering compared to the AOA match. And I highly doubt AOA programs are "far superior" at training individuals to practice primary care in rural settings. You realize there are several well regarded ACGME FM residencies that do just that thing?

I also never said no one was going to the AOA programs. No need to put words in my mouth to help justify your righteous indignation.
 
Zebra Hunter said:
Did you even read my quoted post? I am acknowledging my 50% figure is incorrect. Everything else about the premise of my argument is valid. I am not talking about the AOA match, I am talking about the ACGME match which more DOs are currently entering compared to the AOA match. And I highly doubt AOA programs are "far superior" at training individuals to practice primary care in rural settings. You realize there are several well regarded ACGME FM residencies that do just that thing?

I also never said no one was going to the AOA programs. No need to put words in my mouth to help justify your righteous indignation.
Click to expand...

You're main argument is centered around a false premise. You can't just ignore the AOA match to make an argument against DOs because you feel AOA match is inferior. Facts are AOA resendencies do a far better job of meeting DOs mission then acgme does. By the metric that matters to DO schools AOA residencies do a far better job.


And yes there are some acgme residencies that do primary care in underserved areas however that is a much smaller proportion then what AOA offers. The disparity of the resendecies explains the core difference between DO and MD. The mission of DO (primary care in underserved areas) is reflected in residencies.
 
My main argument is DOs do poorly in the ACGME match. There was no false premise, only a misinterpretation of the statistics. And there is really no debating that ACGME programs provide better training compared to AOA. I'm not sure how you can claim AOA programs are superior at training physicians to work in underserved areas when there are a ton of ACGME FM programs that do exactly that.
 
Zebra Hunter said:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...TSchaqaIaIQ9dUU5w&sig2=NZj8zeGEqh_H53CnLujNBA

Here's the charted outcomes of individuals that ranked programs in the ACGME match (the residency match that all US MDs go through, as well as most DOs). You might not completely understand it, but it is probably the most important thing to assess when choosing DO vs MD. MDs have a 90%+ match rate and independent applicants (DOs, IMGs, and reapplicants) have a 50%+ match rate (DOs are generally slightly higher, but still have similar numbers). There are many programs, especially in more competitive specialties, that wont even interview DOs.

.
Click to expand...

It's even worse. DOs + Carib + FMG + Reapplicants + people convicted of being serial killers have a 45% match rate.
 
ChiTownBHawks said:
False. DO's in the ACGME match alone last year were at 78%. That is NOT including the AOA match.

Eligible grads for 2014 = 5645 (via AOA data)
Number that matched AOA = 2341 (via AOA match)
Number that matched ACGME = 2738 (via NRMP match)
So, overall DO match rate is at a minimum of = 5079/5645 = 90%

Lol, absolutely nothing "similar" about a 78% match rate compared to a 53% match rate.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf
Click to expand...

The above numbers are wrong. They double count advanced positions and count people who applied again after some GME (ie not DO seniors) which is going to jack up the statistics.

So based on the data from the AOA itself: https://natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2014prgstats.html
there were 2064 filled position after the match. However this is double counting positions for derm, ophtho, and other advanced positions that require an internship prior to an advanced position. So, really it is 1961 filled through the AOA match per their data.

ACGME match data: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf
Shows that 2127 osteo grads matched into ACGME positions. Again, the PGY2 positions and the previous graduates with previous GME shouldn't be counted.

Since the numbers from the previous poster were wrong, I also doubt there were 5645 osto grads. There is a graph on the AOA site that looks awfully close to 5000 students. Anyone have an exact number of grads?

I also don't have the results of the military match. Anyone have this?

Real numbers for Osteopathic seniors in 2014:
2127 matched into ACGME positions
1961 matched into AOA positions
?? military positions
?? DO Graduates in 2014
 
Zebra Hunter said:
My main argument is DOs do poorly in the ACGME match. There was no false premise, only a misinterpretation of the statistics. And there is really no debating that ACGME programs provide better training compared to AOA. I'm not sure how you can claim AOA programs are superior at training physicians to work in underserved areas when there are a ton of ACGME FM programs that do exactly that.
Click to expand...

The proportion of acgme programs meeting the mission of DOs isn't as high. DOs are helping to fill the primary care gap. If it weren't for DOs the primary care physician shortage would be insane. It would drastically reduce the amount of prevantitive medicine being practiced and the costs of our healthcare system would be even higher.

But once again you're argument is still stupid. You are ignoring a huge portion of DOs residencies and evaluating them. You can't just evaluate half of the pool of the resendicies DOs go in. It would be like looking at a football team's offense and not their defense and then judging them. You got to look at the whole picture.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
The proportion of acgme programs meeting the mission of DOs isn't as high. DOs are helping to fill the primary care gap. If it weren't for DOs the primary care physician shortage would be insane. It would drastically reduce the amount of prevantitive medicine being practiced and the costs of our healthcare system would be even higher.

But once again you're argument is still stupid. You are ignoring a huge portion of DOs residencies and evaluating them. You can't just evaluate half of the pool of the resendicies DOs go in. It would be like looking at a football team's offense and not their defense and then judging them. You got to look at the whole picture.
Click to expand...
That is a terrible analogy. I am only looking at ACGME because the quality of AOA residencies comparably is inferior, and because DOs are now more likely to apply for an ACGME residency position than not. Sure if you like taking less desirable positions in less desirable locations and like limiting your options before even starting med school, then have right at it. And please define this "mission" that ACGME FM residencies are lacking. I could make up nebulous criteria for you to tackle, as well.

Also, I seriously doubt that if all DO schools and residency programs turned into MD tomorrow we would see this cataclysmic event you are proposing would happen. Residency positions are limited.
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
The proportion of acgme programs meeting the mission of DOs isn't as high. DOs are helping to fill the primary care gap. If it weren't for DOs the primary care physician shortage would be insane. It would drastically reduce the amount of prevantitive medicine being practiced and the costs of our healthcare system would be even higher.

But once again you're argument is still stupid. You are ignoring a huge portion of DOs residencies and evaluating them. You can't just evaluate half of the pool of the resendicies DOs go in. It would be like looking at a football team's offense and not their defense and then judging them. You got to look at the whole picture.
Click to expand...

I'm all for DO = MD, but not many DO students share your enthusiasm for filling the primary care shortage and shoot for competitive residencies their first day (same thing for MD schools with a primary care focus). Also if DO schools didn't exist then it would just be filled by IMGs like it was decades ago when there weren't many DO students. I am happy though that the DO option exists, but there wouldn't be a cataclysmic effect if DO schools just suddenly vanished; Carrib/Foreign schools would just become a much more attractive option.
 
darklabel said:
I'm all for DO = MD, but not many DO students share your enthusiasm for filling the primary care shortage and shoot for competitive residencies their first day (same thing for MD schools with a primary care focus). Also if DO schools didn't exist then it would just be filled by IMGs like it was decades ago when there weren't many DO students. I am happy though that the DO option exists, but there wouldn't be a cataclysmic effect if DO schools just suddenly vanished; Carrib/Foreign schools would just become a much more attractive option.
Click to expand...

Then we would have a bunch of our students being trained overseas and wouldnt nearly receive as good of an education. The thing is the existence of these AOA resendicies is important. We would also see more NPs and PAs filling that gap. We already see that.

Zebra Hunter said:
That is a terrible analogy. I am only looking at ACGME because the quality of AOA residencies comparably is inferior, and because DOs are now more likely to apply for an ACGME residency position than not. Sure if you like taking less desirable positions in less desirable locations and like limiting your options before even starting med school, then have right at it. And please define this "mission" that ACGME FM residencies are lacking. I could make up nebulous criteria for you to tackle, as well.

Also, I seriously doubt that if all DO schools and residency programs turned into MD tomorrow we would see this cataclysmic event you are proposing would happen. Residency positions are limited.
Click to expand...

You aren't limiting yourself as there is still a good portion of DOs who still practice in acgme as well. Just because a lot of DOs are in primary care doesn't mean all are. But AOA resendicies aren't inferior. They for the most part serve a different purpose.
 
Bea5T said:
By 2019 things are most likely going to be closer, if not equal as IMG's get phased out. ACGME would not have merged otherwise.
Click to expand...

How do we know that IMGs will be phased out and not DOs? Just curious.
 
Bea5T said:
By 2019 things are most likely going to be closer, if not equal as IMG's get phased out. ACGME would not have merged otherwise.
Click to expand...

I looked over a lot of applications pre-interview offers this year. I had 4 DO applications and a ton of IMG applications. We are interviewing several IMGs and zero DOs. Single program, yes, but non-Caribbean FMGs can be very VERY strong applicants.
 
Both LCME and AOA are pissed off that off shore diploma mills with absolutely no standards can mint MDs by the ton, and then come back here to compete for rotation and residency slots.



JimmyB123 said:
How do we know that IMGs will be phased out and not DOs? Just curious.
Click to expand...
 
mimelim said:
I looked over a lot of applications pre-interview offers this year. I had 4 DO applications and a ton of IMG applications. We are interviewing several IMGs and zero DOs. Single program, yes, but non-Caribbean FMGs can be very VERY strong applicants.
Click to expand...
Makes perfect sense. non-Carribean FMGs are the students who jumped thru hoops, and got into their med schools and worked their way up to best schools in their country, much different in comparison to the US applicant who wasn't able to get into med school in this country and thus went thru the back route in the Caribbean.
 
DermViser said:
Makes perfect sense. non-Carribean FMGs are the students who jumped thru hoops, and got into their med schools and worked their way up to best schools in their country, much different in comparison to the US applicant who wasn't able to get into med school in this country and thus went thru the back route in the Caribbean.
Click to expand...

Yup, they tend to be the best of the best coming out of a particular country. There will always be spots for good students/future doctors.
 
Zebra Hunter said:
Not really, the majority will not participate in the AOA match.
Click to expand...
More than half participated in the AOA match at my school, many of which were applying to the more competitive AOA specialties. This gave them a first shot at competitive fields, with the ACGME match as a second shot if they failed to match AOA.
 
mimelim said:
I looked over a lot of applications pre-interview offers this year. I had 4 DO applications and a ton of IMG applications. We are interviewing several IMGs and zero DOs. Single program, yes, but non-Caribbean FMGs can be very VERY strong applicants.
Click to expand...
A lot of non-Carib FMGs are world-class researchers that went to top schools in their given country. They're precisely why, even as a future DO, I am completely against a "US grads first" match policy, as we'd be losing a lot of world class talent by doing so.
 
JimmyB123 said:
How do we know that IMGs will be phased out and not DOs? Just curious.
Click to expand...
DOs have traditionally been considered far stronger applicants than Carib grads and most (but not all) FMGs. There are certain FMGs that have astounding achievements under their belt that can outcompete DOs and many MDs, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
 
mimelim said:
I looked over a lot of applications pre-interview offers this year. I had 4 DO applications and a ton of IMG applications. We are interviewing several IMGs and zero DOs. Single program, yes, but non-Caribbean FMGs can be very VERY strong applicants.
Click to expand...

I was referring to mostly Caribbean graduates, sorry for the confusion
 
Zebra Hunter said:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...TSchaqaIaIQ9dUU5w&sig2=NZj8zeGEqh_H53CnLujNBA

Here's the charted outcomes of individuals that ranked programs in the ACGME match (the residency match that all US MDs go through, as well as most DOs). You might not completely understand it, but it is probably the most important thing to assess when choosing DO vs MD. MDs have a 90%+ match rate and independent applicants (DOs, IMGs, and reapplicants) have a 50%+ match rate (DOs are generally slightly higher, but still have similar numbers). There are many programs, especially in more competitive specialties, that wont even interview DOs.

Also, the reality is that the respect of the institution has a very minimal effect on matching, despite what med students will tell you. What really matters is MD vs DO/IMG, your scores, your deans letter, and for some specialties, your letters of rec.

IMO, it would be incredibly dumb to attend a DO school when you were accepted at an MD school unless you had a significant reason for doing so (wanting to do primary care is not a significant reason).
Click to expand...
I agree, but it's worth noting DOs have their own residency programs. Don't come away with the idea that DOs have a coin's flip chance of becoming a licensed physician.
 
mimelim said:
I looked over a lot of applications pre-interview offers this year. I had 4 DO applications and a ton of IMG applications. We are interviewing several IMGs and zero DOs. Single program, yes, but non-Caribbean FMGs can be very VERY strong applicants.
Click to expand...

Is this because the applications of the IMG's were essentially stronger than those 4 DO applicants or because your program just doesn't consider DO applications all together?
 
AlteredScale said:
Is this because the applications of the IMG's were essentially stronger than those 4 DO applicants or because your program just doesn't consider DO applications all together?
Click to expand...

The application was on my desk, so they were being considered for interview.
 
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