New Mid-Level Pilot Program in Michigan

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

DMDWANNABEE

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
141
Reaction score
24
Points
4,606
  1. Dental Student
  2. Dentist
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
In case anyone finds this interesting, the University of Detroit Mercy has announced its intention to carry out a pilot program in which it will train dental hygienists to carry out some irreversible procedures such as amalgam and composite restorations. This trial program will apparently be testing a model which aims to maintain a single tier of dental care by having the mid-level provider work under the direct supervision of a licensed dentist.

It appears, though not confirmed, that this pilot program will differ from those that the ADHA helped design in California and Minnesota in that the new practitioner will not be expressly separate from dental hygiene.
 
Interesting. Thanks for posting. I feel like if there is going to be a midlevel they should be at the masters level with alot of prior experience. One thing that baffles me about these programs though, is the entities that have put alot of money forward. Kellogs & the Gov. to name a few... I'm not sure what their angle is.


In case anyone finds this interesting, the University of Detroit Mercy has announced its intention to carry out a pilot program in which it will train dental hygienists to carry out some irreversible procedures such as amalgam and composite restorations. This trial program will apparently be testing a model which aims to maintain a single tier of dental care by having the mid-level provider work under the direct supervision of a licensed dentist.

It appears, though not confirmed, that this pilot program will differ from those that the ADHA helped design in California and Minnesota in that the new practitioner will not be expressly separate from dental hygiene.
 
Interesting. Thanks for posting. I feel like if there is going to be a midlevel they should be at the masters level with alot of prior experience. One thing that baffles me about these programs though, is the entities that have put alot of money forward. Kellogs & the Gov. to name a few... I'm not sure what their angle is.

I never assumed that they had an agenda other than to try to address a public health problem in a cost-effective manner. It makes since to create additional provides, and use increased competition to promote lower fees, rather than provide continual additional funding for incentive programs. With that in mind, mid-levels would simply be more cheaply and quickly trained than new dentists.
 
I never assumed that they had an agenda other than to try to address a public health problem in a cost-effective manner. It makes since to create additional provides, and use increased competition to promote lower fees, rather than provide continual additional funding for incentive programs. With that in mind, mid-levels would simply be more cheaply and quickly trained than new dentists.

But can a mid-level DELIVER care less expensively than a dentist? If they're working on a medicaid patient, will they receive lower fees than a dentist? Will the supplies that a midlevel uses cost less than what a dentist uses? Will the midlevel expect that they should be compensated less than a dentist for that exact same class 2 amalgam? Will a midlevel have to repay their likely 6 figure student loan debt they accumulate back any less than a dentist?

These are the questions that those at organizations such as Kellog and Pew basically refuse to take into account, and they're questions that most certainly need to be addressed BEFORE millions are spent on the development of these programs
 
But can a mid-level DELIVER care less expensively than a dentist? If they're working on a medicaid patient, will they receive lower fees than a dentist? Will the supplies that a midlevel uses cost less than what a dentist uses? Will the midlevel expect that they should be compensated less than a dentist for that exact same class 2 amalgam? Will a midlevel have to repay their likely 6 figure student loan debt they accumulate back any less than a dentist?

These are the questions that those at organizations such as Kellog and Pew basically refuse to take into account, and they're questions that most certainly need to be addressed BEFORE millions are spent on the development of these programs

Even if they could not, or would not, offer their services more cheaply than dentists, their presence in the market would generate increased competition. This competition would theoretically drive more dentists to accept PPOs and Medicare. It may very well also drive dentists into undeserved areas.

Regardless, because the government and insurance providers (and I would assume corporate dental chains) seem to be on the same page of this issue, it is likely that we will see mid-levels in the future. So, I feel it makes more sense that we try to shape this emerging professional into something that will be safe, effective, and industry friendly.

I personally like to see pilot programs that seek to examine the potential for advanced hygienists rather than autonomous dental therapists, because I feel the patient could benefit from direct, rather than indirect, supervision by the doctor. It seems to me that this could still have the intended effect of increasing competition and forcing dentists to provide for less profitable populations, without sacrificing quality of care by eliminating the benefit of medically-oriented training from treatment planning.
 
The additional of mid-levels to medicine and even an increased number of physicians has not driven down prices in the US. It has been skyrocketing; this is because salary is not a huge cost to delivery of care. Mid-level providers dont save money.

There is always an agenda.
 
Even if they could not, or would not, offer their services more cheaply than dentists, their presence in the market would generate increased competition. This competition would theoretically drive more dentists to accept PPOs and Medicare. It may very well also drive dentists into undeserved areas.

You do realize that the main reason why there currently is, and has been such a low participation rate amongst dentsts with Medicaid and PPO's is that what they're reimbursing you under most circumstances doesn't cover your overhead for that procedure. And as a result, there's only so many patients that you can take that have those types of insurance plans and still be able to cover your operating expenses(often at the increased expense to those who have "regular insurance" and/or are self pay with more financial resources - and the "fairness" of that is an entirely different issue) and pay yourself. The bottomline is that it is economics DOES come into play with this issue, and reguardless of who is rendering the care, there is a certain minimum amount that you have to generate to enable you to sustain the operations of your business. The fees that most PPO's and medicaid plans currently reimburse at leave little/no room for reducing the reimbursement rates any more and still actually be able to provide care. And if you can't stay in business to provide care are you actually increasing access to care or are you decreasing it and/or making it less cost efficient to deliver care??

This is also the reason why you see many cases of medicaid fraud. If the insurance company is going to "squeeze" the provider by cutting back fees so much that the provider can't cover their expenses, then the provider may be more likely to try and bill for more procedures in an effort to generate more income to allow them to operate at a profitable level. Some folks, if they choose to practice that way may try and push the boundries further and further too see how much they "can get away with". This can be exacerbated by the simple fact that the billing software that many a state medicaid system uses is often quite antiquated and may not even pick up on the fact that tooth #20 had an MO restoration in January and then a DO in October of the same year (under most situations it's 1 filling per tooth every 1-2 years minimum or else if a 2nd filling is done within that time frame, that mentioned DO would only be reimbursed to the provider at the difference between what an initial MOD rembursement rate would have been and the already paid MO)

Regardless, because the government and insurance providers (and I would assume corporate dental chains) seem to be on the same page of this issue, it is likely that we will see mid-levels in the future. So, I feel it makes more sense that we try to shape this emerging professional into something that will be safe, effective, and industry friendly.

Nope, all that the chains will look at it as is a chance to hire a midlevel, at a rate lower than a dentist, that is of course until the midlevel realizes that the rate that they're getting paid may not be enough to cover their educational loans and living expenses. Also, you need to add in "cost effective" to your desired outcomes for a midlevel provider. Since the reality is that the government, who will more than likely be footing the bill for the majority of patients that a midlevel would be treating, only has a finite pool of resources, and if some of that pool is needed to offset the operational losses that a midlevel may very well incur, then that's less money available to actually render care, and again, how would that increase access??

I personally like to see pilot programs that seek to examine the potential for advanced hygienists rather than autonomous dental therapists, because I feel the patient could benefit from direct, rather than indirect, supervision by the doctor. It seems to me that this could still have the intended effect of increasing competition and forcing dentists to provide for less profitable populations, without sacrificing quality of care by eliminating the benefit of medically-oriented training from treatment planning.

There is nothing preventing any dentist currently from providing care to "less profitable populations", except the simple basic concept of how a business operates. If you bring in more money than you pay out in expenses, chances are you'll stay open. But if your not bringing in enough to meet your expenses, its not like the electric company, or the amalgam manufacturer, or the dental chair manufacturer, or the handpiece manufacturer, or even the cotton roll manufacturer, or heck, even the property tax assessor in the town you practice in, will lower the amount that you owe them, just simply because you're treating someone from a "less profitable population". That's real life. And as much as most everyone loves a story with a fairytale ending, there are times when the simple truth is that facts win out over fiction in the end.
 
Those seem like very sound points. I am certainly not in any position to argue against them.

Although I would think one of the main advantages (from a public health point of view) to increasing competition would be to drive out models that cannot control overhead as effectively. This, as you pointed out, might mean a large number of solo practices go under. Perhaps it would heavily favor corporate dentistry. It seems that corporate chains manage to remain profitable while accepting most insurances, as well as Medicaid.

Regardless of whether it is a good idea to introduce mid-levels, it would appear that it is likely to happen. So, more to the point of this thread, just know that there will be one more pilot program among the variety of slightly differing ones that already exist.
 
Dr. Jeff, you are very correct.
 
People cannot afford dentistry because they choose not to afford dentistry. Your solution to irresponsibility is to engineer a situation so dentists must operate at a loss or at a net zero? I assisted at a needy dental clinic that nearly went under this past year. It was only saved when they abandoned their (X-)executive's vision and cut some loser payers from the mix and changed their mission to get into the black.

"public health" is a red herring. Get informed and take a business class OP.

As I said in a previous post - mid levels have not decreased the % of GDP spent on medical services nor does decreasing physician compensation as it's not the primary contributor to health care costs. Some liberal-useful-idiots tried these things before and it has been a drag on the entire system and has empowered larger non health services corporations - diminishing the patient-doctor relationship . Now you're advocating the same for dentistry?




I personally like to see pilot programs that seek to examine the potential for advanced hygienists rather than autonomous dental therapists, because I feel the patient could benefit from direct, rather than indirect, supervision by the doctor. It seems to me that this could still have the intended effect of increasing competition and forcing dentists to provide for less profitable populations, without sacrificing quality of care by eliminating the benefit of medically-oriented training from treatment planning.
 
Last edited:
But if your not bringing in enough to meet your expenses, its not like the electric company, or the amalgam manufacturer, or the dental chair manufacturer, or the handpiece manufacturer, or even the cotton roll manufacturer, or heck, even the property tax assessor in the town you practice in, will lower the amount that you owe them, just simply because you're treating someone from a "less profitable population". That's real life. And as much as most everyone loves a story with a fairytale ending, there are times when the simple truth is that facts win out over fiction in the end.

I wish I could get my patients and staff to understand this. They all think I'm bringing home $1,000,000,000
 
I wish I could get my patients and staff to understand this. They all think I'm bringing home $1,000,000,000

I just flat out tell them!

Staff wise, in my office, my partner and I have a monthly bonus incentive plan where if the office collects above threshold amount $A they get a check for $100, if they collect above threshold $B they get a check for $200, and if they collect above threshold $C, they get a check for $200 and my business partner and I will either take the whole office out to dinner or have a catered cookout on a Friday PM (we only work until 1PM on Friday and it makes a nice way to kick the weekend off). My staff knows what my regular fees are, what the medicaid fees for kids are (roughly 80% of my regular fees) and what the medicaid adult fees are (52% of the kids medicaid fees, so basically 40% of my regular fees) and my staff knows that the office overhead runs somewhere between 50 and 60% (my partner and I keep that info slightly more vague to the staff on purpose). This tends to keep our schedules from being filled with too many "money loosing" patients on the same day (a morning full of 4 or 5 medicaid adults who just need 1 filling just doesn't pay the bills after all). My staff is also aware that say 1 private pay crown patient can be the equivalent of 10 to 20 adult medicaid 1 or 2 fillings patients, and that factors into how our schedules get filled.

Patient wise, if I have a medicaid adult patient, who needs a procedure that medicaid doesn't pay for, well I just flat out tell them that, or if it's a situation where for some reason I feel like doing that non covered procedure at no charge for that adult medicaid patient, I flat out tell them that I am doing this procedure, a procedure that is the "standard of care" but that their insurance doesn't cover because of legislative decisions not clinical decisions, free of charge to them and at a financial loss to myself and the employees of my practice. I strongly feel that even though to that patient receiving this "free" care, the more that you as a provider can do to try and get them to realize that there is a cost and value to the "free" care that they're receiving, the better the chance that they'll treat it like something of value
 
Patient wise, if I have a medicaid adult patient, who needs a procedure that medicaid doesn't pay for, well I just flat out tell them that, or if it's a situation where for some reason I feel like doing that non covered procedure at no charge for that adult medicaid patient, I flat out tell them that I am doing this procedure, a procedure that is the "standard of care" but that their insurance doesn't cover because of legislative decisions not clinical decisions, free of charge to them and at a financial loss to myself and the employees of my practice. I strongly feel that even though to that patient receiving this "free" care, the more that you as a provider can do to try and get them to realize that there is a cost and value to the "free" care that they're receiving, the better the chance that they'll treat it like something of value

Could you explain to me what type of situation would lead you to provide free dental services to patients? Most patients on Medicaid are low-income, so how can you determine who gets free treatment and who doesn't? Do you think some patients will come back and view your practice as a charity? Also I read somewhere that providing free medical services to patients in a business can be unethical, but I don't know too much about that yet.
 
Could you explain to me what type of situation would lead you to provide free dental services to patients? Most patients on Medicaid are low-income, so how can you determine who gets free treatment and who doesn't? Do you think some patients will come back and view your practice as a charity? Also I read somewhere that providing free medical services to patients in a business can be unethical, but I don't know too much about that yet.

100% subjective thing going on in my head when I decide to do some non covered by medicaid, free of charge work on a patient. It might be that the patient has a compelling background story/situation, it might be that the patient has a personality trait that I like, it might just be as simple as the needed treatment for that patient is something that I REALLY enjoy doing and feel that it would be a great case to do that procedure on. Basically there is no set "formula" in my head that determines when I decide to do some "free" care on a patient.

As for the ethics, well you're free to charge whatever you want for your services. Often your fees may be influenced by insurance reimbursement rates, but you can make isolated adjustments up or down as you feel free too
 
Top Bottom