New mom sues medical licensing board

[lilnoelle]

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Members don't see this ad.

problem solved.

http://www.whisperwear.com/

 

[randomedstudent]

Judging from the rest of the facts, I doubt that breastfeeding is her real issue. In fact, I tend to think that if this is a woman who has had to pay people to read to her due to her ADHD as others pointed out, (keeping in mind other people cope with ADHD just fine by exercising, yoga, medication if worse come to worse on their own. I know because I have some very good friends in real life that have admitted to having to cope with this disease for years), and if this is a woman who has also had dyslexia and failed once before, then it is reasonable to assume that there is a good possibility she's not really doing this in the name of breastfeeding mothers and possibly wants the extra time for other reasons.

Besides, she already had a child once before and she coped so how come she can't cope now?[/QUOTE]

OK, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of your post (although personally it would not bother me in the least if they granted her extra break time) I am getting a little frustrated that the point about her previous child keeps coming up. Perhaps I'm the one missing something, but someone else said that her older child is 22 months. If we assume this is step 2 she is trying to take then that child likely wasn't born when she took step 1 (at least 2 years ago, and probably more since she's MD/PhD). Remember this whole discussion is specifically pertaining to test taking conditions and the only other time she probably took a test of this length was probably before she had any kids.

 

[Miami_med]

Please say you're not serious, I'm begging you.

Of course, your idea is interesting in that it could usher in a whole new era of "welfare moms"!! Young girls getting pregnant and having 10 babies by the age of 24 so they can get a 50% MCAT score raise. Afterall, the admissions process is pretty competitive.

By the way, I work full time, go to school 15 credit hours/semester, and am raising two young children (but am male). Should I get a score increase also?

I did the same thing with one kid when I was in college.

 

[Miami_med]

I guess what rubs me the wrong way is that it has to be an EITHER/OR choice. While I don't think you can be 100% stay-at-home mother and 100% workaholic physician, I do believe that you can do both and do them well.

And some people do both, but requiring exceptions to one in order to do the other isn't doing both well. She's obviously not doing one very well, or she wouldn't need any special concesions.

 

[randomedstudent]

How is it not a choice? Unless you have an immaculate conception like Mary or have been the victim of rape etc. Regardless, there are only a tiny number of scenarios I can think of where it is not a choice. Why do I get the drift from some women that society forces them to both work and have children. In all honesty, isn't the process of becoming a doctor hard enough without trying to have a baby? Not saying that there is anything wrong with it, (many females do it and pull it off nicely) but if you do then it is your responsibility to deal with it, nobody else's. I may have my preconceived notions or shortcomings but I am willing to listen-so enlighten me.

Or, if you are as unlucky as two of my friends (one a doctor, one a nurse) who both got pregnant while on birth control at quite inconvenient times. Clearly both of these women know how to correctly use birth control, and incidently, neither of them were actually using OCP's anyway - one used Depo and the other NuvaRing. Just wanted to point out that there are responsible women who try their best to plan their pregnancies appropriately and unfortunately it doesn't always work out. Hope you are now enlightened....

 

[baylormed]

And some people do both, but requiring exceptions to one in order to do the other isn't doing both well. She's obviously not doing one very well, or she wouldn't need any special concesions.

And if you'd read my other comments, you would have noticed I disagree with her ridiculous request.

My comment about the "choice" is unrelated to that opinion.

 

[Miami_med]

Or, if you are as unlucky as two of my friends (one a doctor, one a nurse) who both got pregnant while on birth control at quite inconvenient times. Clearly both of these women know how to correctly use birth control, and incidently, neither of them were actually using OCP's anyway - one used Depo and the other NuvaRing. Just wanted to point out that there are responsible women who try their best to plan their pregnancies appropriately and unfortunately it doesn't always work out. Hope you are now enlightened....

None of those things are full-proof, and we all make calculated risks. I decided to have children with my wife, and she ended up getting pregnant with multiples. The odds were low, but not 0. It may not be irresponsible, but it is still a choice.

 

[Miami_med]

And if you'd read my other comments, you would have noticed I disagree with her ridiculous request.

My comment about the "choice" is unrelated to that opinion.

OK. No point in arguing this.👍

 

[UnderdogMD]

Or, if you are as unlucky as two of my friends (one a doctor, one a nurse) who both got pregnant while on birth control at quite inconvenient times. Clearly both of these women know how to correctly use birth control, and incidently, neither of them were actually using OCP's anyway - one used Depo and the other NuvaRing. Just wanted to point out that there are responsible women who try their best to plan their pregnancies appropriately and unfortunately it doesn't always work out. Hope you are now enlightened....

You bolded the wrong portion of my post. Regardless, there are only a tiny number of scenarios I can think of where it is not a choice That part seems more appropriate.

I should have been clearer, my main beef was with choosing to have a child, not choosing to become pregnant. Becoming pregnant does not necessarily have to result in having a child. But that delves into abortion and then religion and with the strongly held beliefs many people have here I am not touching it. So, lets assume for now that if one becomes pregnant one has a child.

Now about 'choice.' The way I see it, if you choose to have sex (even with contraceptives) then you choose to accept the responsibility of a pregnancy/child occurring (no matter how minuscule). I still see that as choice. Please don't misconstrue this as an argument against sex, that is not my intention. I am very pro-sex, in fact....well never mind, it is still a choice that has potential consequences that must be accepted.

As for the part I bolded in your post, I agree. These are 'responsible women' and like I said in my previous post it is now their (parents) responsibility to deal with it, nobody else's-Not their schools, not their employers, and definitely not the medical licensing board.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hey lookee what I found (when looking for totally unrelated information): http://www.nbme.org/about/BF-USMLE.html

News
Breastfeeding During the USMLE
September 13, 2007

Recent inquiries prompt us to offer this Q&A about policies and circumstances that may affect women who wish to express milk during Step 2 Clinical Knowledge (CK) of the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE). We have also included information about NBME's response to the lawsuit of Sophie C. Currier and her daughter, Lea M. Gallien-Currier.

If you have any additional questions, please contact Kenneth Cotton, Assistant Vice President, General Services, National Board of Medical Examiners, 215-590-9648 or [email protected].

How long is Step 2 CK?
A computerized exam, Step 2 CK consists of eight testing blocks of up to one hour each, plus 45 minutes of break time and an optional 15-minute tutorial. Examinees may use their break time throughout the day as they choose (e.g., take multiple short breaks between blocks of the test or fewer breaks of longer duration).

Is it possible to express milk during the testing day?
Yes. Women may express milk during the 45 minutes for break time. If examinees complete the tutorial or examination blocks in less than the allotted time, they can add that time to their break time.

Have applicants successfully used their break time to express milk?
Yes. To our knowledge, many women have expressed milk during the standard allotted break time.

How have you responded to Sophie Currier's request for extra time to express milk?
As the papers filed in court show, NBME offered Ms. Currier a variety of comfort measures and personal item exceptions, such as permission to bring multiple, assembled pumps to eliminate the time involved in cleaning, assembling, and disassembling them; permission to pump milk while taking the test and on break time, with privacy within the constraints of exam security, in the individual testing room that she receives on account of her ADA disability. We also provided her with a sample schedule demonstrating how an examinee can flexibly manage the time to take a 20- to 30-minute break every three hours.

Why have the requests of Ms. Currier for extra break time been denied?
This is a standardized examination and the stakes in passing it are very high for all the men and women who have been preparing so arduously for their medical careers. The stakes for the American public are even higher, as the USMLE is accepted by virtually all licensing boards as evidence of competence to practice medicine in the US. Because of the test's importance to all examinees and to the public's safety, maintaining its fairness and integrity is our priority.

Is there any chance the policies about break time will change?
The governing body of the USMLE is reviewing the amount of break time for everyone. The importance of fair, consistent standards means we cannot make ad hoc individual decisions.

How easy is it to schedule a Step 2 CK exam around personal needs?
The exam is offered at testing centers in the United States and abroad, five to six days a week year-round, except for a limited period in January. Because it is given so often, most people are able to take their exams on a schedule convenient to them.

Who can qualify for additional break time?
Test-takers who are covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) may be legally entitled to receive additional break time or other accommodations, such as a separate testing room. The Guidelines to Request Test Accommodations can be accessed at www.usmle.org.

Who sponsors the USMLE?
The National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) and the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB) cosponsor the US Medical Licensing Exam. Policies governing its administration are established by the USMLE Composite Committee comprising representatives from the cosponsors, NBME and FSMB, and the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates, which assesses the readiness of international medical graduates for medical residencies and fellowships.

And that contact information again…
Kenneth Cotton, Assistant Vice President General Services, National Board of Medical Examiners, 215-590-9648, [email protected].

 

[OB1🤙]

Bravo, NBME. They thankfully realize that this whole silly thing most definitely does not pass the sniff test.

 

[lilnoelle]

So she can pump while taking the test? Then she REALLY doesn't need extra time. Its not real easy to pump while doing other things, but I certainly managed to figure it out so she can as well.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I was interested in the info that NBME is providing her with a private room to take her exam. She doesn't even have to leave the room to pump, thereby saving her several minutes as well. She doesn't mention this in her blog. They have also given her a schedule of how to pump and fit it into the day.

Heck, I would have liked to have had a private room, all the better not to hear the incessant throat clearing of the guy next to me...which the ear plugs COULD NOT drown out.😳

 

[Winged Scapula]

So she can pump while taking the test? Then she REALLY doesn't need extra time. Its not real easy to pump while doing other things, but I certainly managed to figure it out so she can as well.

Well, I'm not sure she would want to, but yes...they've given her a private room (albeit it must somehow be video monitored for security purposes) so she doesn't have to worry about others in ther with her and said they have no restrictions on pumping while taking the exam.

I imagine it would be hard to do, but obviously do-able. Whether she wants to is another issue, apparently.

 

[lilnoelle]

Well, I'm not sure she would want to, but yes...they've given her a private room (albeit it must somehow be video monitored for security purposes) so she doesn't have to worry about others in ther with her and said they have no restrictions on pumping while taking the exam.

I imagine it would be hard to do, but obviously do-able. Whether she wants to is another issue, apparently.

Well, maybe she wouldn't want to because its another way to throw a fuss, but really, if she breastfed her first baby for a year and has breastfed this one for four months, she's probably breastfed in public before. Modesty sort of goes out the window after a little while of breastfeeding. Besides, they make clothes that make it even easier to remain somewhat modest when breastfeeding or pumping.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Well, maybe she wouldn't want to because its another way to throw a fuss, but really, if she breastfed her first baby for a year and has breastfed this one for four months, she's probably breastfed in public before. Modesty sort of goes out the window after a little while of breastfeeding. Besides, they make clothes that make it even easier to remain somewhat modest when breastfeeding or pumping.

I agree with you...I'm not sure this is really about breastfeeding at all.

If she is such a supporter of the activity, she would feel comfortable doing it most anywhere and probably has done so in public before, as you note.

I can easily see having a pashmina or some other sort of cover to conceal her while pumping...I am just not sure she wants to make any concessions but rather expects everyone else to do so for her.

 

[oxeye]

Sounds to me like NBME has responded appropriately. 45 minutes of break time PLUS the option to pump in a private room while taking the test sounds completely fine!

I have the Whisperwear pump that lilnoelle posted a link to. It worked great when I was in situations where I needed to pump but still needed my hands free. I wouldn't want to use it with other people around but she has a private room, so no problem. They even make hands-free bras for pumping with a standard double electric pump.

I took the paper (ie all day) MCAT when my daughter was 8 months old and still exclusively nursing (she didn't get interested in solids until closer to a year old). I only was able to nurse her during the lunch break and there were no opportunities to pump. It was an uncomfortable day and I'm incredibly prone to mastitis but it was a risk I decided to take so that I wouldn't have to delay starting medical school. I didn't even get mastitis after the test - go figure! I thought for sure that I would.

Being a parent is the best thing in my life - but nothing about it makes my life easier. I just saw my situation during the MCAT as another one of those things that made my life a little harder. It's still worth it, though. 😀

 

[psychophobia]

Bravo, NBME. They thankfully realize that this whole silly thing most definitely does not pass the sniff test.

This has been going on since at least June. That's when she went to the Boston Globe and ABC news. http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma.../board_wont_relent_for_breast_feeding_mother/

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3330105&page=1

Looks like she found a lawyer to take her case pro bono and is trying another media blitz. Only the public sympathy seems to be flagging. Even the lactivists appear to be distancing themselves from her. So, even though she's played the victim in the press, cried "discrimination against breast feeding women," and filed suit against NBME to force them to give her what she wants, NBME is still holding the line. Gotta love em!

 

[Winged Scapula]

... Even the lactivists appear to be distancing themselves from her.

Lactivists...

 

[Abilene85]

I know she thinks that media attention will help her, but I would personally respect her more if she turned down all the interviews and simply fought her battle as someone who wants extra time to get over this hurdle keeping her from residency. She probably thought there would be an outpouring of sympathy, but didn't consider others would have a problem with her requests. Seems like she would have enjoyed going to DC to work as an activist for people with disabilities and for nursing mothers.

 

[oxeye]

This has been going on since at least June. That's when she went to the Boston Globe and ABC news. http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma.../board_wont_relent_for_breast_feeding_mother/

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3330105&page=1

Looks like she found a lawyer to take her case pro bono and is trying another media blitz. Only the public sympathy seems to be flagging. Even the lactivists appear to be distancing themselves from her. So, even though she's played the victim in the press, cried "discrimination against breast feeding women," and filed suit against NBME to force them to give her what she wants, NBME is still holding the line. Gotta love em!

Heh, I was quoted in the ABC article. (different screenname and taken out of context)

I'm a card carrying lactivist (certified lactation counselor and 4 straight years of breastfeeding myself) and I can't get worked up over this. I think she's getting more than enough accomodation and it's just (normally) ONE DAY! You can do anything for a day. Now if this was about her needing to pump at work every day or breastfeeding in public, I would completely support her.

 

[Abilene85]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3330105&page=1

Sorry. I failed to keep it down while reading that article. Talk about biased journalism.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I found the comments from readers of the articles, especially the ABC News one, very enlightening.

Many of them were from women working in self-described "blue collar" professions who were appalled at the "elitism" Dr. Currier is showing. They were not given extra time at work to pump nor did they expect special concessions because they were pregnant. Some did not have paid leave and worked hourly shifts; if they needed extra time off to pump or spend with their baby, if allowed to have it, they weren't paid. They were offended at her expectations that she be treated any differently than anyone else and worried that she misrepresents women in the workplace.

Gives one even more perspective as to how certain segments of our population expect to be coddled and drooled over without any regard to how lucky they have it.

I rarely find myself interested in sociopolitical topics, but this one really fascinates me.

 

[Abilene85]

Many of them were from women working in self-described "blue collar" professions who were appalled at the "elitism"

Sad. These people will likely think she represents all medical professionals, or at least all female doctors. They will come to us (well...hopefully me in many many years). They will have this idea of elitism in the back of their minds and from the very beginning there is a block to open communication.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sad. These people will likely think she represents all medical professionals, or at least all female doctors. They will come to us (well...hopefully me in many many years). They will have this idea of elitism in the back of their minds and from the very beginning there is a block to open communication.

As if we already didn't have an image problem, now this.

Excuse me while I ask my maid to fetch me a diet soda and to run the Porsche over to pick up the little darlings at their violin lessons. 😉

 

[Sureshot83]

I jsut thought of another way in which Dr. Currier's antics may be doing a disservice to nursing women.

She plans to pursue a career in pathology, which is all well and good, as she will be pretty much able to break whenever she wants for the purpose of letting down some milk.

However, what about those women who want to become surgeons? Several surgeries take 8+ hours. I'm guessing that surgeons cannot routinely leave an OR in the middle of a surgery for half an hour so they can express milk. Does Dr. Currier's argument seem to imply that nursing women would be unable to perform these types of long surgeries? What do you all think?

I'm sure there have been thousands of female surgeons who have made it through long surgeries while nursing, just as there have been many who have made it through step 2. As Kimberli Cox has mentioned, surgery is already not the most female-friendly specialty, and it would be unfortunate if this particular issue caused a greater bias to form.

 

[Abilene85]

What's so wrong with taking some time off when you are a new, nursing mother? The bigger issue is maternity leave in America, but that's a whole other can'o'worms.

 

[Yehosh]

Sorry. I failed to keep it down while reading that article. Talk about biased journalism.

Totally

it is really disturbing how easy it is for journalists to distort reality

It is sad how that article and many other readers missed the whole point of the importance of licensing a physician in a proper manner.

 

[Miami_med]

I was interested in the info that NBME is providing her with a private room to take her exam. She doesn't even have to leave the room to pump, thereby saving her several minutes as well. She doesn't mention this in her blog. They have also given her a schedule of how to pump and fit it into the day.

Heck, I would have liked to have had a private room, all the better not to hear the incessant throat clearing of the guy next to me...which the ear plugs COULD NOT drown out.😳

Umm... I have an um..... disability. In all seriousness, I spent half of STEP I distracted by the incompetent test proctors who kept talking to people in the room. I think the private room is amazingly nice.

 

[Blade28]

I was distracted by those test-takers who were furiously typing away for about 2-3 hours straight - must have been taking some sort of essay exam.

It was nice getting the bigger lockers, and being checked in first, though, when it was announced that my exam time slot was 9 hours. 🙂

 

[Miami_med]

I was distracted by those test-takers who were furiously typing away for about 2-3 hours straight - must have been taking some sort of essay exam.

It was nice getting the bigger lockers, and being checked in first, though, when it was announced that my exam time slot was 9 hours. 🙂

Man,

I got the same crappy locker that everyone else did 😡

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I've got to admit that the class thing is getting to me just based on the totally peripheral facts of the story. She has a home in Brookline, so I'm guessing either her so makes tons of money or her parents have dough. Also, honestly being able to have 2 kids as a student puts you in a pretty privileged category. Add the MIT and Harvard thing in, and my class resentments are going full flare.

So yeah, I guess I can relate to the blue collar comments by the marketing assistant woman on the ABC site.

I do think it's interesting that no one has ever requested the accommodations before, and she's surely not the first breast-feeding mom to take the USMLE.

 

[BabyBop]

How have you responded to Sophie Currier’s request for extra time to express milk?
As the papers filed in court show, NBME offered Ms. Currier a variety of comfort measures and personal item exceptions, such as permission to bring multiple, assembled pumps to eliminate the time involved in cleaning, assembling, and disassembling them; permission to pump milk while taking the test and on break time, with privacy within the constraints of exam security, in the individual testing room that she receives on account of her ADA disability. We also provided her with a sample schedule demonstrating how an examinee can flexibly manage the time to take a 20- to 30-minute break every three hours.

Wow... I always thought she was pushing it, but now I don't have the slightest bit of sympathy for her anymore. Individual room AND allowed to pump during the test? I mean, it's not super-comfortable to pump but I wouldn't say it's that distracting either once letdown occurs (especially since she must have pumped dozens of time before). Not perfect conditions, but she should be used to that as a mom. We make things work... that's just what we do. She is just completely unwilling to compromise.

The only thing that is not very practical about the NBME response is the piece about bringing several pumps, since those babies (the good ones) cost a good $200-300 a piece. But even a single pump would work: if she can pump during test time, then she can clean up during break time... Also the new hands-free bras (or the Whisperwear pump) make her completely available for the test (otherwise you do need both hands to hold the bottles, or to pump if you're using a manual - and that would be very distracting).

One last thing though: I don't like that the NBME is using the fact that no one has ever requested accommodations before... I'm sure many nursing moms would have liked accomodations, but didn't push it because we either thought it wasn't worth the trouble, were too shy to "rock the boat", or because we didn't want the mention of "unusual test conditions" or something similar on our test report (that was the main factor for me when I was in her situation for Step 1). Not because it was easy and not a problem.

 

[Winged Scapula]

One last thing though: I don't like that the NBME is using the fact that no one has ever requested accommodations before... I'm sure many nursing moms would have liked accomodations, but didn't push it because we either thought it wasn't worth the trouble, were too shy to "rock the boat", or because we didn't want the mention of "unusual test conditions" or something similar on our test report (that was the main factor for me when I was in her situation for Step 1). Not because it was easy and not a problem.

You're right...that weakens their (NBME) argument. Just because no one has asked doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

 

[BabyBop]

The only thing that is not very practical about the NBME response is the piece about bringing several pumps, since those babies (the good ones) cost a good $200-300 a piece. But even a single pump would work: if she can pump during test time, then she can clean up during break time...

Actually, nevermind. She can get several sets of bottles/valves/horns/tubes (basically anything in contact with the milk) for a reasonable price, assemble them before, and plug the 2 tubes to her one pump (don't know about the Whisperwear, but you can do that with the other ones). That's a reasonable alternative that wouldn't take any time.

 

[pagemmapants]

Kimberli, I'm so glad you're around to say the things I want to say. I wish there were some way to enlighten the public as to exactly how flagrantly excessive her accomodations already are. BAH. I can't think about this anymore because it makes me tooooo angry.

 

[Oceaner]

wtf...

boo. she's embarrassing all breastfeeding moms. 👎thumbdown👎

yeah, life is full of compromises, if you have a kid, and a temporary physical dsability-- suck it up and schedule your exam for another time.

 

[psychophobia]

Looks like AOL has a poll that's running 66 to 34 against giving her extra breaks. http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mom-seeks-breast-feeding-breaks-in-test/20070912095909990001

Wonder if the MA superior court judge cares what the public thinks.🙄

 

[GreenShirt]

What's so wrong with taking some time off when you are a new, nursing mother? The bigger issue is maternity leave in America, but that's a whole other can'o'worms.

Well, as many males on this forum have pointed out there is no reason for women to get "special" considerations while experiencing the additional physical and emotional burdens of being pregnant. I mean if a man can do surgery for eights hours straight, then it's ridiculous to think a nine month pregnant woman should require "concessions". I'm mean it's just plain lazy. In fact, a female physician should pop out a baby, hand it to the nurse, and get back on rounds. Of course, women working in "men's" professions such as medicine should not even have babies, after all nobody "has" to have children. Why should you get maternity leave to provide the bonding a human baby needs in order to properly develop?

I'm not siding with Ms. Currie and I know that there are plenty of women who juggle work and family admirably but I'm peeved by some of the attitudes on this forum that women who decide to have children are being selfish and are just trying to get exceptions at work so that they can be lazy. Just because a women needs to take one or two years out of her life to have a child doesn't mean that she can't pursue a lifelong career like medicine. The comments that pregnant women should be treated the same as men for the sake of social justice get an are just plain ridiculous and callous.

 

[Tired]

I'm not siding with Ms. Currie and I know that there are plenty of women who juggle work and family admirably but I'm peeved by some of the attitudes on this forum that women who decide to have children are being shellfish and are just trying to get exceptions at work so that they can be lazy. Just because a women needs to take one or two years out of her life to have a child doesn't mean that she can't pursue a lifelong career like medicine. The comments, such as those by Dr. Cox, that pregnant women should be treated the same as men for the sake of social justice get an are just plain ridiculous and callous.

The issue isn't social justice. The issue is that we don't care about your personal life, and we don't want to do extra work to facilitate your life choices. You see, every time a resident takes maternity leave, the patients don't magically get put on hold, they get covered by the residents who aren't pregnant, breast feeding, tending to their emotional needs, finding themselves, etc.

You want a baby? Great, hold off on residency. But don't get pregnant and expect me to do your work for a while, then swoop back in and pick up where you left off. Your baby doesn't concern me, don't make your problem mine.

 

[GreenShirt]

The issue isn't social justice. The issue is that we don't care about your personal life, and we don't want to do extra work to facilitate your life choices. You see, every time a resident takes maternity leave, the patients don't magically get put on hold, they get covered by the residents who aren't pregnant, breast feeding, tending to their emotional needs, finding themselves, etc.

You want a baby? Great, hold off on residency. But don't get pregnant and expect me to do your work for a while, then swoop back in and pick up where you left off. Your baby doesn't concern me, don't make your problem mine.

Men have the luxury of always putting their career before their family, women don't. You make it sound like it's an easy thing to work around, like planning a vacation. While women have some choice in the matter, the choices aren't great: Either 1) Never have children or 2) Have children during your training or wait until you're in the age when there's a significantly high risk for birth defects. These are decisions that men will never have to make in their lives. A little sensitivity is all I ask. Should only men be allowed to work in medicine because they don't have child rearing responsibilities?

I'm sure its sucks when you have to do extra work, but is it any different than when one of your co-workers gets sick or has surgery and has to stay home?

 

[theraball]

I'm not siding with Ms. Currie and I know that there are plenty of women who juggle work and family admirably but I'm peeved by some of the attitudes on this forum that women who decide to have children are being shellfish and are just trying to get exceptions at work so that they can be lazy. Just because a women needs to take one or two years out of her life to have a child doesn't mean that she can't pursue a lifelong career like medicine. The comments, such as those by Dr. Cox, that pregnant women should be treated the same as men for the sake of social justice get an are just plain ridiculous and callous.

sorry I just have to answer this. I have never called any woman a shellfish and I am totally opposed to such cross-species insinuations! 😕

sorry for jumping in right at the end of this thread; I only read the first few postings between studying. the OP was referring to a woman who was looking for extraordinary accommodation for pumping, on top of her already generous accommodation for learning disabilities of a whole extra day to take the boards. I think she's an extreme case, just an opportunist who's taking advantage of the system, but in general moms need to be accommodated however possible because, well, moms are important. A sister-in-law had two boys while in medical school. Was that a bad thing? hell no. It set her back by a year or two, but she got her child rearing over with while still in her 20s, which is a good thing--less danger of genetic abnormalities, and in 3-4 years she'll actually have a life again after residency. Her school accommodated her needs but it was no cake walk; bearing and raising children is a full time plus overtime job and to do that plus medicine...shudder...ya gotta hand it to them.

 

[Sureshot83]

I'm sure its sucks when you have to do extra work, but is it any different than when one of your co-workers gets sick or has surgery and has to stay home?

Yes, it is different, for at least two reasons:

1) People generally don't choose to be sick or have surgery.
2) If you are sick, you miss maybe 3 days of work. If you have major surgery, you might be out for a week or two. This is far less than "taking one or two years out of her life to have a child" as you had said in a previous post.


The fact of the matter is that every year, hundreds, if not thousands, of women in the US do choose to have babies during residency and complete the requirements of their training.

 

[Tired]

You make it sound like it's an easy thing to work around, like planning a vacation. While women have some choice in the matter, the choices aren't great: Either 1) Never have children or 2) Have children during your training or wait until you're in the age when there's a significantly high risk for birth defects.

You're still not hearing me. I don't care. You want a kid, work it out. But don't expect me to get all excited about doing your work while you're off playing with the new baby. Hard or easy, choices, blah blah blah. I just don't care.

These are decisions that men will never have to make in their lives. A little sensitivity is all I ask. Should only men be allowed to work in medicine because they don't have child rearing responsibilities?

Neat, so men don't have any interest in spending time with their kids? I wonder how my program would take it if I asked for paternity leave.

I'm sure its sucks when you have to do extra work, but is it any different than when one of your co-workers gets sick or has surgery and has to stay home?

I don't support calling in sick either.

 

[UnderdogMD]

Well, as many males on this forum have pointed out there is no reason for women to get "special" considerations while experiencing the additional physical and emotional burdens of being pregnant. I mean if a man can do surgery for eights hours straight, then it's ridiculous to think a nine month pregnant woman should require "concessions". I'm mean it's just plain lazy. In fact, a female physician should pop out a baby, hand it to the nurse, and get back on rounds. Of course, women working in "men's" professions such as medicine should not even have babies, after all nobody "has" to have children. Why should you get maternity leave to provide the bonding a human baby needs in order to properly develop?

Yes, now you are finally making sense. Nobody forces women into a challenging and demanding (key part) career such as medicine. Nobody forces them to have kids. So when they want to be exceptional doctors and exceptional mothers they expect the world to bend over backwards for them. I like sarcasm too🙄.

The comments, such as those by Dr. Cox, that pregnant women should be treated the same as men for the sake of social justice get an are just plain ridiculous and callous.

What? Where? She said no such thing. Dr. Cox said she found the comments in response to articles (particularly the ABC one) enlightening. It is something I would say though. Either women are equal to men or they are not. Which is it? In fact you can pick. Yes I mean it, seriously, go ahead and choose. Either choice is fine. The thing is, you can't have it both ways, you can't be equal in some instances and not in others.

The issue isn't social justice. The issue is that we don't care about your personal life, and we don't want to do extra work to facilitate your life choices.

Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself.
QFT

 

[GreenShirt]

Yes, it is different, for at least two reasons:

1) People generally don't choose to be sick or have surgery.
2) If you are sick, you miss maybe 3 days of work. If you have major surgery, you might be out for a week or two. This is far less than "taking one or two years out of her life to have a child" as you had said in a previous post.


The fact of the matter is that every year, hundreds, if not thousands, of women in the US do choose to have babies during residency and complete the requirements of their training.

You're overestimating the level of choice in the matter. Here's another analogy: A co-worker is a car accident, shatters his legs among other injuries. Should he have paid sick leave and other concessions? After all he did choose to drive his car. Driving is one of the most dangerous activities we participate in everyday and no one has to drive a car, it's a choice we make. So should this guy be required to come to work and hobble around on his good leg? Analogies only go so far, but this is similar to what society says to women when they deny them paid maternity leave and claim that the profound physical changes they undergo during pregnancy should not effect their work life.

For the most part I think that career women do their best to balance both aspects of their lives and try not to ask for concessions unless absolutely necessary. All I ask it that our male co-workers look on it with a little bit of understanding rather than just viewing women as lazy, selfish and a nuisance in the work place.

 

[GreenShirt]

Either women are equal to men or they are not. Which is it? In fact you can pick. Yes I mean it, seriously, go ahead and choose. Either choice is fine. The thing is, you can't have it both ways, you can't be equal in some instances and not in others.

Well then, I guess that women aren't equal to men because they require maternity leave. Why is this an equality issue? It's a difference, it exists. I don't think we can just ignore it and say "Well that's equality."

 

[UnderdogMD]

Well then, I guess that women aren't equal to men because they require maternity leave. Why is this an equality issue? It's a difference, it exists. I don't think we can just ignore it and say "Well that's equality."

No, we only say "well that's equality" when women argue for the same opportunities/professions/rights as men (notions I whole heartedly support). But then issues such as pregnancies/maternity leave/child bearing/part time work come up and all of a sudden women are not equal? In terms of social justice, it seems to me that women take steps forward, and then jump right back as soon as it fits their needs.

All I ask is that our male co-workers look on it with a little bit of understanding rather than just viewing women as lazy, selfish and a nuisance in the work place.

Viewing women as 'lazy', never. Viewing them as 'selfish and a nuisance', a certain few.

 

[Abilene85]

Just because a women needs to take one or two years out of her life to have a child doesn't mean that she can't pursue a lifelong career like medicine.

👍👍👍

If you can't have a baby and keep up with the work of medical training, take a year off to raise the child and then go back to school. That's not lowering the standards so the woman can graduate on time. Though I guess this is hypocrital of me because that year of maternity leave could be considered "extra break time," right?? Even though you are raising a child. Oh well.

 

[Abilene85]

Neat, so men don't have any interest in spending time with their kids? I wonder how my program would take it if I asked for paternity leave.

Men don't like babies - what are you talking about? They plant their seed and move on to the next woman. 😛


But seriously, we don't believe in paternity leave here in America. Anyone interested in maternity/paternity leave should do a quick google search. There are some fascinating statistics out there showing where America falls with respect to the amount of time off, who can take that time off, and whether or not it is paid/unpaid leave.