New Pre-Dent! Please Help In Direction!

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Bruins2013

I want to apologize in advance for this long post. I am new to pre-dental and have no idea of any of this as it is foreign to me. Let me start by giving you some background information:

I am switching from pre-med to pre-dental. Since I was pre-med, I have a lot of volunteer and research medically oriented. Here is what I will have done when applying to dental school for extracurriculars:

1.5 years volunteering/shadowing at a surgery center
1 year volunteering at UCLA Hospital as a patient escort
4 Quarters of research in Alzheimers Research Lab
2 years of volunteer with Fresh Start Dental (offering free dental care to underpriveliged children)
I am going to also be start shadowing and volunteering in a dentists office in the next few days for the summer before I head back to UCLA.

I am a senior at UCLA majoring in neuroscience. I transferred to UCLA in Fall 2011 from a community college after being at the CC since 2006. I was there a long time, I know. My science GPA should be around 3.5 when I graduate. My cGPA should be around 3.4. The reason that the GPA's are so low is because I was at CC for 3 years not knowing what I wanted to do with my life and I trashed my GPA (i.e. getting C in high school level english course and getting D and F in government). Since I made a goal for myself (doctor), I have gotten 3.5+ on all semesters/quarters till now (except last quarter at UCLA) so my trend is upwards. I am hoping on getting straight A's my last year at UCLA in all my neuroscience courses. My first year at CC I received a D and F, but then retook the class and got B. I know all the grades count, but I just wanted to make sure that the med committees knew I was capable.

I have been studying a month for the MCAT, but since I switched to predental, I am in a bind. I am not sure how the application process works for dental as opposed to medical, and not sure how the DAT works and how to study for it. Here are my questions:

Can I use MCAT books to prepare for the DAT? Which books/materials are best?
Can I put my medical volunteering (i.e. in the surgery center and hospital) on my dental application? Would they consider it as volunteer work since it isn't in the dental field?
How long do you prepare for the DAT?
Does anyone know where I can get a study schedule for the DAT?
Do I have a chance at getting into any dental schools?

Like I said, I am sorry for the long post. If any of this info is listed anywhere else, I apologize. Any help is greatly appreciated and good luck to you all in your studies! 🙂:luck::xf:
 
Hi. No worries. First of all, you will need to take your DATs. If you plan to apply to dental school this year for Fall 2013, you will need to begin studying ASAP. Plan to study 2-3 months for your DAT. However, since you already have studied for your MCAT, some of the material will overall and you may not need to spend so much time studying. The main difference b/w the MCAT and DAT is that the DAT is not passage based. The only thing that is passage based is the reading comprehension section. My roommate (pre-med) and I (pre-dent) compared our MCAT and DAT Kaplan books. They are pretty much identical in terms of the study material. However, there is a PAT section and no physics section on the DAT. Here is my suggested study materials for the DAT.

1. PAT - Crack DAT PAT (buy the 10 practice test edition online)
2. Quantitative Reasoning (DAT Destroyer, Kaplan Blue Book aka KBB, Math Destroyer) The destroyers are purchased online by Orgoman. These are top-notch. Majority of pre-dental students use the DAT Destroyer b/c it is super good material. It's expensive, but no one regrets buying it.
3. Gchem - KBB & Kaplan online material if you take an online course (I also read the Princeton MCAT version which was super helpful for me, but not a lot of people used Princeton), Chad's videos (purchase online & everyone recommends this)
4. Ochem - It's up to you. I used my ochem book from school. No mechanisms on DAT.
5. Reading Comprehension - Search & Destroy method, but it can get risky if you get stuck.
6. Bio - AP Cliffs Bio. Know this book in and out. KBB is too general. The bio questions on the DAT are very random.

Search the ADA.org website to sign up for your DAT. I recommend signing up ~1-2 months in advanced to get the DAT date that you want. You can pretty much sign up to take the test almost any day that you want.

You have a good chance of getting into dental school given your stats and your volunteering. You can also put medical volunteering in the AADSAS application. They might even ask you why not medical school given all of your experience in medicine. Plan on getting 3-4 letters of recommendations depending on the schools you are applying to (2 science or 1 science and 1 non-science, 1 of your choice, 1 dentist).

Say you take your DAT in October, schools will receive your application in November. This a late application. So, you might get invited for a late interview in March-April or it might be just for the waitlist since all schools are rolling admission. You can submit your AADSAS application w/o your DAT scores and LORs. However, schools will not look at your application until it is complete.

I hope this helps. You can personally message me if you have any questions. 🙂
 
Thank you so much. With my low gpa, (I would have to get straight A my senior year of ucla to get the 3.4, 3.5 i mentioned, should i take a year off?
 
Thank you so much. With my low gpa, (I would have to get straight A my senior year of ucla to get the 3.4, 3.5 i mentioned, should i take a year off?

Does that mean you are now at 3.2/3.3?

Either way, I would suggest taking a year off before you spend 250k+ on a dental education to make sure you want to be a dentist and won't change your mind. Nothing about your app thus far (except your dental volunteering) says you know you want to be a dentist or answers the question why you want to be a dentist. Work on that and apply for fall 2014 in my opinon.
 
Also, do the dental schools care about where you went to undergrad?
 
Everyone above has given fantastic advice.

The only thing I would have to say is what are your motivations for wanting to be a dentist, how recently did you switch, and in that time have you shadowed/volunteered at any dental offices or clinics? If the answer is no, then I would definitely do that before spending several thousand in applications this year. I'm going to type this all out, with hopes that it may help out another d-school hopeful in a similar situation.

Now, to answer your questions:

Can I use MCAT books to prepare for the DAT? Which books/materials are best? Already answered
Can I put my medical volunteering (i.e. in the surgery center and hospital) on my dental application? Would they consider it as volunteer work since it isn't in the dental field? Yes, you can put medical volunteering for dental, volunteering is volunteering. See below for more.
How long do you prepare for the DAT? Depends. Avg 6-8 wks, but with your prep for the MCAT it may be a lower number.
Does anyone know where I can get a study schedule for the DAT? I think you found dentalWorks' sample study schedule. And to answer your question there, most people do practice exams the last week or two. You can easily condense his sample schedule into fewer weeks, leaving more time for practice exams at the end of the schedule.
Do I have a chance at getting into any dental schools? Absolutely. Where there's a will there's a way.
Also, do the dental schools care about where you went to undergrad? In a word, no. Ivy helps you maybe get into other ivies, but in general they care about academic performance overall. Debate rages on this topic, but a person from a po-dunk school with great grades, DAT scores, and a ton of altruistic volunteer work in their local community will usually be looked upon more favorably than someone with a sub-par GPA, average DAT scores, and little to no experience from an Ivy. That is why you should beef up where you can. Your GPA will only get raised so much in one year, try your best to get all A's (adcoms love to see an upward trend) and get at least the minimum shadowing experience down.

Let's talk about the different sections of the d-school application as they apply to your portfolio:

GPA- Your GPA is right there with the avg of a lot of other d-students. If you were still applying to med school I would have some reservations and say you should wait a year to boost that uGPA up a little bit. But for d-school, 3.2-3.3 is in the ballpark and would grant a lot of people interviews assuming the rest of the app is up to par. I'm not actually concerned about your GPA, but rather with how many courses you took at CC? Did you take any prereqs, and if so, how many? A lot of d-schools frown upon CC courses and will not accept any CC credits (some schools do accept, and there are limits to the number of credits they take). I would suggest buying the ADEA Official Guide to Dental Schools book, it has a ton of information, most notably about dental schools, their stats (avg entering GPA, DAT, age, gender, race), avg cost, preference for in/out state, whether any CC credits are accepted... the list goes on. It's only about $30-40 bucks and is a HUGE investment; it will probably save you several hundred just by virtue of helping you narrow down schools.

Research- Research isn't mandatory for d-schools, it's great that you have it but it doesn't detract if you don't have it (hence most dental students don't do research. I have one semester myself, but that was as a "hard sciences" major and I really thought I wanted to do research at the time.). So it's great that you have it, but you need to beef up the other areas d-schools really care about... such as shadowing dentists and/or getting some hands-on experiences (volunteering at low income clinics is a great way to do this, and can also count as volunteering. If you're in LA I'm assuming there will plenty of opportunities for you here).

Shadowing- This is an absolute must, not only because the adcoms want to see it, but because you need to determine whether this is something you can see yourself doing. It is a good idea to shadow a couple different general dentists (most d-schools prefer general over specialty b/c they see a variety of cases) because each dentist will have a different office flow. Basically the more exposure the better. I have heard around 50-80 hrs of shadowing is good. I know people have gotten in doing 30, but if you're switching from pre-med and want to convince them this is what you want to do, you might want to up it to ~50 hrs. Some schools will list this requirement on their website, check around and you can start to get an idea for how many hours they want. Volunteering can count as shadowing (see below).

Volunteering- This is where you can double-dip. Some people might disagree, but you are in a crunch for time (assuming you are still interested in applying this cycle), so the more shortcuts you can take to fill out the app, the better. If you volunteered at a low-income clinic, you could use this as volunteering AND shadowing. I know you already have 2 yrs of volunteering, how many hours though? (Just curious here). Yes, volunteering is volunteering so you can DEF put medical volunteerism on your app. But, you have a lot of med stuff so that may raise an eyebrow. A lot of people switch back and forth so don't worry too much about it. Just try to get some actual clinical volunteer work, which can also count as shadowing (if it's done in an office). What was the Fresh Start Dental venue like? How often was that? Once a year? Or once a month? What were your roles? Were you a chairside assistant or did you simply help the lines move and/or do paperwork? (Basically I'm trying to see whether it was an outside informal area with tents set-up, or in an office where you would be more likely to see procedures).

Work- I know med schools are really keen to see scribing or work in doctor's offices, but d-schools are more chill than that. Again, as long as you get hands-on experiences (aka volunteering), you'll be fine. Not really necessary to have received $$ in return for work. Again, med schools are different in this respect, they want to see actual clinical experience. With d-schools in general it will suffice to just have the volunteering and as long as you were chairside, you will be okay. Did you do any other work? Anything else while taking classes? Did you work at the local sandwich shop or at the mall (both things I did in undergrad), or even work on campus? All of these count towards "work", it'd be nice to be able to throw on that you worked at a dental office but it's not mandatory. Now. One could hypothetically work at a dentist's office and count that as shadowing. It's quite common. Yes, you can absolutely double-dip there. But, you are in a time crunch, and as you have stated your #1 priority is your GPA, so if you are taking classes and expecting to get A's I would say hold off on working at a dentist's office (because you won't be able to move around your schedule as easily as if you were volunteering and had no binding commitments. You show up when you want, and you leave when you want). So basically- don't worry about this. Do you have any other work experience though (non-dental related)? This might also help explain a lower GPA in addition to bombing a couple CC classes. Not looking for excuses just maybe another area which will help explain your GPA. Loads of people have to work in undergrad, taking time away from studying. Just wondering.

LORs- This can get tricky for you, especially if your contacts are all MD's. Who are you going to get letters from? This is one area that can really convince the adcoms that you want to be a dentist (aside from P.S.) because this area will have several other people (adults, professionals in the field, and people who presumably went to d-school) convincing the adcoms directly that you will be the best dental student, this is what you really want to do, and that you're a great student/employee/volunteer etc, etc. So again, who is writing your LORs? Most schools request they come from 2 science professors (some even go so far as to say 1 biology, 1 chemistry, but I would check each website, again), and some schools request 3 science prof LORs (I think Pitt has this requirement?). They also require an LOR from a dentist you've worked with (this is where it gets dicey. Some ban the "shadow" idea and require you to have actually worked with them in some capacity. This is where volunteering once again saves the day. You can def use a dentist you've volunteered with at a low-income clinic who can attest to your manual skills, patient interaction, and altruism). Now, you said you're volunteering in a dentist's office starting next week. Do they know you will probably need a letter from them? How cool are they? If they're pretty chill and you know them, I would let them know upfront you will need a letter and that you will need it by ____ (insert a date). Honestly, mid-August latest, end of July if possible. Depends on how many hours you will have with them (aim for 50 so it looks like they know that they're talking about). This is one area that you do not need to have sent it along with your AADSAS app. It can get sent in later and will not delay AADSAS from processing your GPA. (Note: I would have mentioned committee letters but since you are later in the process I didn't bother. Most committee letters start their process the fall or winter prior to application, ie December 2011) so assuming your school is the same way you'd have missed the boat. It's all good, individuals letters will suffice. Just make sure you get the appropriate numbers and types.).

DAT- Not going to add too much here because everything was pretty much already said, but I just wanted to add a piece of advice. It will take AADSAS at least 2-3 weeks to process your app, so you can use this time to study for the DAT. If you take your DAT a couple of weeks after you submit your app, you'll be in great shape, schools will receive everything at around the same time. ADEA says it takes 2 weeks to process the DAT scores but it really depends, it could be shorter. If you plan to take your DAT at the end of August (6 wks from now, totally doable, esp if you've already prepped for the MCAT) then schools will receive your completed app by mid-September. Most schools interview starting in Sept/Oct so you should be okay for a couple pre-Dec invites, but most likely post-Dec. It's worth a try if you're this close, and you could save a year of your life by applying now and possibly getting in! You never know. Oh, and see which schools accept faxed copies of the unofficial transcripts. Some do, some don't. The sooner you get this info to them, the sooner they start processing your app. Some schools only look at official ADEA copies so you're out of luck there. That's why it's important not to delay taking the DAT too long.

Personal Statement (PS): You really need to convince the adcoms of why you want to make the switch. Maybe in the process you'll do a little soul-searching. I'm assuming you had drafts of PS for med school- don't scrap them, I'm sure you can use parts of it, but it definitely has to be catered to dental schools (in general, don't specify to one). Do you have a funny anecdote which can connect the medicine-dental thing and explain why you made the transition to dentistry? Perfect! Just don't get too heart-wrenching or overly-emotional. It's a fine line to walk, explain yourself, be true and honest, but don't come off as sappy or over dramatic. You can imagine you're writing your PS as a letter to a professor to whom you're close with and so you'll still be professional in your writing and hopefully won't come off as rigid or uptight. Hopefully that mindset helps. Again- pack a punch. You are limited to 4500 characters INCLUDING spaces, and not one space more so be ready to write the most succinct, pack-a-punch essay you've ever written! I would try to get this done ASAP. You will need it for the submission of your app and often it is the one area that holds applicants up (aside from transcripts, more on that next).

AADSAS APP: As soon as humanly possible, create an AADSAS account, login in, print off the transcript matching form, and attach it to your requests for official transcripts from each school you attended. (Yes, each school. Did you take a course for credit there? Then you must request a transcript. Even if it was one course. For you I'm assuming it will be at least two schools/transcripts, the CC and UCLA). Send it to AADSAS asap because they will need to verify your GPA and at this point it's taking them ~2 to 2.5 wks to do that. That means that from the date you click "submit" it will take a minimum of 2 to 2.5 weeks for your application to get mailed out (maybe longer). So let's say you submit your app mid-August... it won't get sent to the dental schools until mid-late September. Don't despair. You'll be studying for the DAT in the meantime.

Projected timeline:
Today's date- July 19
Request transcripts- July 19
Transcripts get to AADSAS- July 26
GPA Verification Starts- July 30
Volunteer- July 23-August 17
PS done- August 17
Application- Submitted by August 17
Get LOR by August 24 (7 days is a quick turnaround that's why I suggest letting the dentist know sooner so they can start writing it)
DAT exam- August 31
GPA Verified/Sent to schools- September 15 (latest)
DAT Verified/Sent to schools- September 15 (latest)

Things you need for your application to be submitted:
-Transcripts/Transcript matching forms
-PS (have several ppl read over this!!)
-Volunteer work completed, so you can include the hours on your app

Things that can come afterwards:
-DAT scores
-LORs

I have a couple years experience guiding pre-health students (primarily pre-med) so I know the med school ropes really well, and I'm a d-school hopeful myself so I know the d-school ropes really well too. I've seen a bunch of straddlers (people who don't know which field they want to pursue) and a bunch of people who have (successfully) made the transition between the two fields, usually med to dental. If you have any further questions just ask! But of course, do your due diligence and search the websites of the various d-schools. It is tedious but you will learn so much better that way, trust me! Each school has its quirk and each school has a "thing" they are looking for, whether it be research, GPA, DAT, volunteering, or some combination of the above. Your stats are pretty decent assuming you get 19/20's on the DAT across the board, which, with your preparation for the MCAT, I'm assuming will not be difficult to manage.

Good luck! :luck:
 
Holy cow! Thank you so much for your post! I have a few more questions. 🙂 Since I was at community college for like 3-4 years, I took enough classes there and units to graduate (hypothetically). I took calculus, statistics, general chemistry, physics, and biology at CC. Pretty much all my prereqs 🙁 When I went to UCLA, I took three lower division biology courses getting A, A, and C+ (genetics). I took two quarters of organic chemistry at UCLA as well getting B- and C+, however I took one quarter at CC getting an A-. I know that they look down upon classes taken at CC, but I have no choice now because this isn't the case with medical schools. Med schools don't care as much about if you took them at CC or a 4 year.

As for volunteering, Fresh Start just contacted me this morning saying that they didn't need any help in the dental area, so I won't be able to get THAT volunteer experience. However, I do have a dentist that called me today that said I can come in whenever I wanted for however long I wanted and shadow him. He said he would "put me to work" so I hope that means hands on work.

The other questions I had were about debt. Once you are a dentist, how hard is it to get out of debt? The dentist that I am going to be shadowing told me that he will be retiring in about 10 years and that he will be selling his practice. Would it be a good idea to buy his or start my own? What is the maximum amount of debt that I should take on? To me it seems like anything greater than 250k will just be a burden on my life and I won't have any money to live haha. My girlfriend (we will be getting married soon), is going to be starting nursing school soon, so by the time I graduate, she should be an RN. With her income and my starting dental income, do you think it is possible to live a good life with 250k debt?

As far as my passion, I love ANYTHING that has to do with the human body. Medical I love, dental, physical therapy...etc. As long as whatever I am doing and am interested in is bringing in enough money to raise a family and support us to a level that we are comfortable at, I am happy with that.

LOR- My research PI said that he would write me a LOR. I know that the dentist I am going to shadow will write me one, so that is two. As for the science and non-science letters, I haven't gotten any nor do I have any professors that I would feel comfortable asking at this time. I have one year left at UCLA, but pretty much all my classes are neuroscience courses. (Plus, I may throw in physiology and microbiology.)

Since I have a sub par GPA and took a lot of pre reqs at CC, I want to apply very broadly to maximize my chances.
 
Wow, I'm so glad I found this post. I'm in the same boat as you are, in the fact that I was pre-health/med but just recently switched to dental. I studied for the MCAT for about a month or two as well, but I really wasn't 100% positive that I wanted to do medicine..so that's when I started to shadow around and I found out that I absolutely love what dentistry entails! Studying for the MCAT helped out a bit with studying for the DAT (I had the Princeton Review books), but I suggest additional material for sure. I highly suggest Kaplan's blue book, Cliffnotes for AP Biology, Crack the PAT, and Chad's videos for the both chemistry's! I wished that I got Destroyer for more practice though. I did end up making the decision to apply in this cycle. ><' I still feel completely new to all of this. Best of luck to you!



I would like some opinions too if that's okay~

So my situation is that I graduated as a biology major last December (2011).
BCP 3.88, sGPA 3.81, oGPA 3.87

I just took my DAT on the 18th with scores of:

PAT 20 / QR 19 / RC 20 / Bio 21 / GChem 21 / OChem 21 / TS 21 / AA 20

I worked as a certified nursing aide for dementia patients for almost a year. This summer, I shadowed and volunteered at my orthodontist's office for about 90 hrs. At the same time, I got additional shadowing experiences with general dentists, a pediatric dentist, a prosthodontist, and two dental labs (total of around 20-30 hrs).

I sent my AADSAS application in mid-June and it was mailed out to my schools on June 14th..but they're all waiting on my scores now, which probably won't be until the beginning of August.

Right now, I'm working on secondary applications. I am worried about two of them because they both said to send them in at the same time as the AADSAS application..but I was so worried about my DAT (I was getting 14-16's in my chemistry sections 🙁 ). I rather possibly get a better score, ya know? But I'm hoping to mail them out by tomorrow or Monday. Do you think I'm at a disadvantage because of that? 'Cause I hear that it's pretty important to send out secondary applications early.

I'd just really like to know how my chances are looking right now.

Any input would be awesome! 🙂
 
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Hey Bruins2013 glad to help!

I'm going to give you the typical SDN answer: "Focus on getting into d-school first then worry about loans." -> (haha sorry someone was bound to say this so I just did preemptively).

Now my response. Being a dentist in debt is akin to being any other professional with massive loans. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, all assume a ton of debt. And these professionals seem to be able to pay back their loans without too much difficulty. A lot of how quickly one can get out of debt has to do with 1. How much debt is assumed (less for in-state schools, more for OOS/private), 2. and how much you net once in private practice. That can vary quite a bit. Honestly, I feel that dentists on average, have an easier time of getting out of debt because the net income (for the average dentist) is pretty decent, esp after several years of building up a practice. Again, it has to do with your loan repayment program (how many years/interest/total loan amt), and how much you net in income. But, it seems pretty doable because- well, it's been done before! I worry about the same thing from time to time, and then I remember my fine arts friends who have assumed the same type of debt and net about 50K-80K (max) a year and they're able to do it. You may get a more informed response by asking someone who has been through this before- I haven't assumed debt in any amount close to what d-schools cost, so I can't say for sure. But based on what I've seen from other d-school grads and using my fine arts friends as a litmus, I think we'll be okay. 🙂
 
Hey xyourstruli,

Great stats! I think with your stats and applying early you'll be in a lot better shape than most people.

With regards to your secondaries, I would mail them out asap (of course, make sure your responses are well-thought out and well-written, there's no point in sending out secondaries asap if there are typos, ya know). I know schools recommend completing the secondaries soon after receiving them (ie UCLA suggests a 3-wk turnaround time with their secondary) but I think mid-July is still pretty early and as long as you get them out this week, you should be fine. The earlier the better, including all supplemental materials. I don't think it will be a huge detriment. I'm not sure, but I don't think many d-schools have even begun reviewing applications. I know some schools start early, but even they haven't gotten to all the applicants. Which means, they won't notice your lack of supplementals. But reviews start soon (if they haven't already), so submit this week, and you should be fine. 🙂
 
Toofly, you're absolutely awesome 😀 Thank you so much for your reply. I submitted the secondaries and they both should get to the schools by tomorrow. Hopefully it all goes well. Best of luck to you! 🙂
 
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