New schools vs Established schools

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Onstarr

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Hello everyone
I have a question regarding new schools vs established schools.
As you guys are aware there have been new osteo. schools on the rise..
As an applicant, i am curious to know if there are major pros and cons I should consider.

I am asking this forum not the pre-ost. forum only because I am sure there are more here with experience and knowledge of being at a new school.

Sure there may be new facilities and equipment but how about rotations & residencies in the future?
 
pros to established schools - established residency positions

MANY new schools have NO interest in making sure you have a residency spot, at least at a school with a residency program you're much more likely to have a spot (too early to forecast inability to match from these new schools but it certainly is a concern with the large increase in student docs and zero increase in residency positions).
 
As a member of the second class through LECOM Bradenton... I have no complaints... nothing serious anyway... Of course we have big brother up in Erie to look out for us... LECOM is one of the largest medical schools out there with their combined classes... I say do your homework and apply everywhere that interests you...

Good luck
 
No probs here at GA-PCOM but we are a branch of a very well respected school in Philly (ever heard of it?). State of the Art technology and good rotations coming.

In response to DOctor Jay,

There are PLENTY of residencies available to us. Its just not in the areas you want to see. When people on this forum say that the new schools are being created without residencies they mean not enough Derm, Rads, Surg, or Ortho residencies. There are PLENTY of IM, FP etc don't go filled.

BMW-

pros to established schools - established residency positions

MANY new schools have NO interest in making sure you have a residency spot, at least at a school with a residency program you're much more likely to have a spot (too early to forecast inability to match from these new schools but it certainly is a concern with the large increase in student docs and zero increase in residency positions).
 
No probs here at GA-PCOM but we are a branch of a very well respected school in Philly (ever heard of it?). State of the Art technology and good rotations coming.

In response to DOctor Jay,

There are PLENTY of residencies available to us. Its just not in the areas you want to see. When people on this forum say that the new schools are being created without residencies they mean not enough Derm, Rads, Surg, or Ortho residencies. There are PLENTY of IM, FP etc don't go filled.

BMW-


One the trend of med students is for specialization so the IM and FP slots go unfilled for a reason. That being said PCOM is of the school of thought that there needs to be residencies created with these new schools. I would be shocked if they didn't start working to this once the shcool is up and running.
 
I'm interested as well since I'll be part of the first class at DCOM.

I've been pretty impressed with the rotations they have set up...but I'm sure there will be some bumps in the road.

Those of you that have been part of a brand new school, can you give some examples of problems that we might face?
 
One the trend of med students is for specialization so the IM and FP slots go unfilled for a reason. That being said PCOM is of the school of thought that there needs to be residencies created with these new schools. I would be shocked if they didn't start working to this once the shcool is up and running.

I just don't understand what the AOA is thinking, don't combine the match and let slots go unfilled. They curse those who do an allo residency even though a good percentage of the graduates go that route. They are shooting themselves in the foot in my opinion. If they had options other than FP or IM in other places besides the cold north, I would be game. I don't want to have to move North or stay in FL, so guess that I will be the one they curse.
 
I just don't understand what the AOA is thinking, don't combine the match and let slots go unfilled. They curse those who do an allo residency even though a good percentage of the graduates go that route. They are shooting themselves in the foot in my opinion. If they had options other than FP or IM in other places besides the cold north, I would be game. I don't want to have to move North or stay in FL, so guess that I will be the one they curse.

If you are refering to the opening of new schools, the AOA is against it without first making sure there are osteopathic residencys in place for every student who wants one. This has been expressed in several speeches by the leaders. Unfortunately the AOA does not license new schools. There is an independent body that does this. The leaders of the AOA can express their opinion but they cannot make this body listen.
 
I stick with all the ESTABLISHED schools...some residency program director in the DO residencies and competitive ones like Radiology, Derm, Ophth look at that...I rotate at places where more pull was given to students from established older schools. They could only be in the middle of the class with decent board scores from CCOM, DMU, PCOM, KCOM, KCUMB, OSU, UMDNJ, MSUCOM, TCOM and if they were from the newer schools, those applicants had to be at the top of the class with superb board scores. I know this isn't right, but in the older program directors minds, its whatever goes since they make the decision. I think most of the newer DO schools will prepare you...but just be aware when choosing and applying.

Note: I just heard this when I was rotating and applying to all the different residency and internship programs in the DO world. I didn't apply MD.
 
I stick with all the ESTABLISHED schools...some residency program director in the DO residencies and competitive ones like Radiology, Derm, Ophth look at that...I rotate at places where more pull was given to students from established older schools. They could only be in the middle of the class with decent board scores from CCOM, DMU, PCOM, KCOM, KCUMB, OSU, UMDNJ, MSUCOM, TCOM and if they were from the newer schools, those applicants had to be at the top of the class with superb board scores. I know this isn't right, but in the older program directors minds, its whatever goes since they make the decision. I think most of the newer DO schools will prepare you...but just be aware when choosing and applying.

Note: I just heard this when I was rotating and applying to all the different residency and internship programs in the DO world. I didn't apply MD.

i see... I am also getting the vibe that it wouldnt be too bad going to a new school either - only bc there wont be much variations in the first two years. Rotations doesnt seem too bad.. But i guess the residency placement is a big one.
 
Hello everyone
I have a question regarding new schools vs established schools.
As you guys are aware there have been new osteo. schools on the rise..
As an applicant, i am curious to know if there are major pros and cons I should consider.

I am asking this forum not the pre-ost. forum only because I am sure there are more here with experience and knowledge of being at a new school.

Sure there may be new facilities and equipment but how about rotations & residencies in the future?

Your last sentence gets to the meat.
You are paying for rotations. Most of these new places can recruit faculty and educate for the first two years. PhDs are cheap and get paid for lecturing. Rotations are where your education begins. You are the cash cow for the school during years 3 & 4. They inflict students on community docs and trust that a medical education will take place. In these days of piss-poor reimbursement and high productivity, a student does nothing for a practice. You are a burden on these physicians. Yes, there may be the occasional educator on a rotation, but even at established schools we are little more than tolerated.

Keep in mind also that these new places are mostly placed where there is already a surfeit of medical students. Tenn. has 4 medical schools prior to the new program. Ga. has a massive med student glut. Try squeezing in to a slot beside Emory.

Mine is the only medical school in our state. We are still second or third in line behind allo. kidz from out of state. I had a few decent rotations partially funded by my program, but then I paid extra to rotate at a few big allo. programs. The difference in the quality of didactic teaching, the enthusiasm of the clinicians, and the superior facilities made me realize what a sham most DO "clinicals" have become.

The osteo hospitals are basically dead. Where do you think the schools will try to place you? That's right. Glomming on to the large allo. houses is the only game left for the DO student. You are second choice for these places everytime.

If you must go DO, go somewhere established. We are <10 years away from a new Flexner report. When this review comes out, revealing the inadequate education sold at the new/branch campuses, the metastatic growth of these weak medical programs will be another nail in the osteo. coffin.

Think hard about this decision. I sat where you are about five years ago and now very much regret my choice.
 
fuegorama hit it on the head in my opinion. While new schools don't have the advantage of curriculum that is already tried and true, some might be hard pressed to look at the struggle that some schools (even established) have had in the past 5 years with board passing rates (NYCOM comes to mind but I know UMDNJ had an issue a few years ago of restructure and are doing fine now, rumors of UNECOM board issues have surfaced now and again and LECOM - those are just the ones I'm familiar with). I would suggest that you really look at WHO is at some of these new schools (administration-wise) and how they are going about to set up the school. Some schools chief complaints are that the admins don't respond to student concerns (LECOM and NYCOM are the two biggest I've heard of recently) which can be for new and older schools as well.

I personally would prefer an established school only b/c you know what to expect if they've been around and are consistently performing over the past 20 years (well for the most part). Rotations are set up and you don't have issues that you might with newer schools who have "guinea pigs" with changing curriculum issues. Just my opinion 😀
 
First of all people need to realize that it is no mystery that DO schools and the AOA want you to go Primary Care!! Don't go DO and then curse them that they want this. It is not a hidden agenda. If you want Ortho or Rads GO MD!! I love the people that go to DO schools and then curse the osteopathic profession because they can't get Neurosurg! Who are we kidding here.

As far as the doomsday predictions by fuegorama don't believe it. Are you kidding? A huge med student glut in GA? There is a HUGE PHYSICIAN SHORTAGE in GA. And the Southeast for that matter. How do you think the school was so welcomed? I can see where some of these fledgling schools might have probs., but the ones such as ours have strong backing- PCOM ever heard of it? Just be selective and do your research. There is a coming Doc shortage in this country despite all the doomsday predictions.





Your last sentence gets to the meat.
You are paying for rotations. Most of these new places can recruit faculty and educate for the first two years. PhDs are cheap and get paid for lecturing. Rotations are where your education begins. You are the cash cow for the school during years 3 & 4. They inflict students on community docs and trust that a medical education will take place. In these days of piss-poor reimbursement and high productivity, a student does nothing for a practice. You are a burden on these physicians. Yes, there may be the occasional educator on a rotation, but even at established schools we are little more than tolerated.

Keep in mind also that these new places are mostly placed where there is already a surfeit of medical students. Tenn. has 4 medical schools prior to the new program. Ga. has a massive med student glut. Try squeezing in to a slot beside Emory.

Mine is the only medical school in our state. We are still second or third in line behind allo. kidz from out of state. I had a few decent rotations partially funded by my program, but then I paid extra to rotate at a few big allo. programs. The difference in the quality of didactic teaching, the enthusiasm of the clinicians, and the superior facilities made me realize what a sham most DO "clinicals" have become.

The osteo hospitals are basically dead. Where do you think the schools will try to place you? That's right. Glomming on to the large allo. houses is the only game left for the DO student. You are second choice for these places everytime.

If you must go DO, go somewhere established. We are <10 years away from a new Flexner report. When this review comes out, revealing the inadequate education sold at the new/branch campuses, the metastatic growth of these weak medical programs will be another nail in the osteo. coffin.

Think hard about this decision. I sat where you are about five years ago and now very much regret my choice.
 
fuegorama hit it on the head in my opinion. While new schools don't have the advantage of curriculum that is already tried and true, some might be hard pressed to look at the struggle that some schools (even established) have had in the past 5 years with board passing rates (NYCOM comes to mind but I know UMDNJ had an issue a few years ago of restructure and are doing fine now, rumors of UNECOM board issues have surfaced now and again and LECOM - those are just the ones I'm familiar with). I would suggest that you really look at WHO is at some of these new schools (administration-wise) and how they are going about to set up the school. Some schools chief complaints are that the admins don't respond to student concerns (LECOM and NYCOM are the two biggest I've heard of recently) which can be for new and older schools as well.

I personally would prefer an established school only b/c you know what to expect if they've been around and are consistently performing over the past 20 years (well for the most part). Rotations are set up and you don't have issues that you might with newer schools who have "guinea pigs" with changing curriculum issues. Just my opinion 😀

Thank you msheaddoc & fuegorama.
This was the kind of information I was trying to consider before making a decision.

i didnt even think about the flexnor report until you mentioned it.
 
Just to summarize, do your homework on the school. I'm sure some of these new schools will become great but we don't know, so you have to consider that into your decision. There is a risk in going to a newer school. That said, you become a doctor none-the-less (well hopefully if you pass boards 😉 )

As for the glut of med students in areas, this DOES happen. In areas where there are alot of med students it can be hard to set up rotations at times b/c not all doctors work with med students. This has nothing to do with the shortage of PHYSICIANS. I can't speak for Georgia but I can speak for other major cities where you might need to set up rotations well in advance (especially if your school doesn't do it all for you!). Quality of rotations is extremely important in my opinion and not every community hospital might be the right setting for a good clinical experience.
 
I have been encouraged by the research I've done on the faculty that DCOM will have.

I've also been encouraged by the perceived strength of the rotations they have set up already. Can someone comment on the pitfalls/advantages of having some of the rotations they do?

I also like the fact that there has been so much invested in the school already.

As for rotations, it's nice that you don't have to move halfway across the country for 3rd and 4th years like I might have to if I went to some of the established schools near me.
 
Does the fed govt pay for DO residency slots?

Because thats the limiting factor here. The fed has already stated that they will not pay for new MD residency positions, which means the DOs will still have to slug it out with the MDs and FMGs for these positions.

Bush has proposed a budget which takes away alot of the GME funding used for resident slots.

These new DO schools are selling you a lie. Do not be suprised that you have trouble getting a residency slot. We have a larger pool of people competiting for the same limited slots.
 
There is a HUGE PHYSICIAN SHORTAGE in GA. And the Southeast for that matter. How do you think the school was so welcomed?


Uhh, creation of new schools has absolutely NOTHING to do with doctor supply. Lets not be naive. The reason new schools are being created is because of $$$$

1) Schools want that med student tuition
2) Communities want med schools because the politicians say it will bring NIH dollars to the area.

New schools are being justified based PURELY on economic impact reasons that have NOTHING to do with doctor supply or doctor/patient ratios.
 
Go to an established school.

Or, if you don't, you better learn how to be a star in this universe or else those that guide you into your career (ie residency programs/PD's) will think one thing about you and the new school you went to: weak.
 
If you must go DO, go somewhere established. We are <10 years away from a new Flexner report. When this review comes out, revealing the inadequate education sold at the new/branch campuses, the metastatic growth of these weak medical programs will be another nail in the osteo. coffin.

This is going to happen one way or another.

If I remember correctly, the only DO school in 1911 that was said to have adequate training according to the Flexner report was the California school. But even that school had rotational problems. But we lost that school in the 1960s, (it got taken over and is now UC Irvine)

I wonder what would Flexner say about some of these new DO schools today. I'm sort of under the impression that he wouldn't be to impressed with the OPTI list/programs.

If you want to see how much political weight and finance your school can muster, look at the OPTI list. Michigan State, Ohio Univeristy, and Philadelphia have a lot of programs - a lot of lucrative programs too. I just kept scrolling my mouse down and down on their pages. They have monster OPTI programs.

As for the rest of the established osteopathic schools, well Nova has a good decent list. Oklahoma's list is fairly decent. A lot variety there. But I wish that Texas's list was a little bigger. Kirksville's has a lot of variety and fairly extensive too.

But the newer schools are a little more scarce in their programs, that is, they have few to none. Keep in mind that they are new and hopefully this will change over time - but that will all depend on what happens in Washington DC. Pay attention to the Democrats and Republicans.

I know this may sound off tangent, but after becoming a student and seeing how many of our osteopathic programs are underfunded, I am ever so more tempted abandon the Republicans and vote Democrat.:meanie:
 
Please don't discourage pre-meds from going to DO schools just because you guys are disgruntled about not being able to go Derm/ortho/rads! As I stated before if you want these specialties go MD. If pre-meds are interested in FP, IM, Peds or even EM they will do just fine at a DO school even a NEW one. There are so many slots available for these areas. The prob is actually the reverse. So many DO students want to do ortho and derm that they won't even consider DO programs this is what is leading to the AOA's probs with residency funding etc.

As far as the argument that $$ is the reason schools open, this may be somewhat true but considering that most schools operate in the red I don't think they are cash cows like you think. No matter what your argument is, there IS A physician shortage that will need to be filled somehow. We have great rotation sites set up despite EMORY believe it or not. I can't emphasize enough if you want the top 5 specialties: Rads, Derm, Ortho, spec. surgeries, etc. GO MD and do us all a favor so we don't have to hear the complaining

BMW-


Go to an established school.

Or, if you don't, you better learn how to be a star in this universe or else those that guide you into your career (ie residency programs/PD's) will think one thing about you and the new school you went to: weak.
 
As far as the argument that $$ is the reason schools open, this may be somewhat true but considering that most schools operate in the red I don't think they are cash cows like you think.

BMW-

Red ink?

Well, I think there's a strictly "for profit" school opening up in Colorado. There's plenty of money to be made. And look at some of the recent expansions by schools that have existed for less than 10 years.

So there is plenty of money to be made. And I wouldn't be suprised if some of that money is going to a Swiss bank account.
 
Well that is ridiculous they should stop any school from opening "for profit"


Red ink?

Well, I think there's a strictly "for profit" school opening up in Colorado. There's plenty of money to be made. And look at some of the recent expansions by schools that have existed for less than 10 years.

So there is plenty of money to be made. And I wouldn't be suprised if some of that money is going to a Swiss bank account.
 
Opening up a pure medical school does not generate alot of revenue, but when you start to add in other programs it starts to add up. Pharmacy schools, pa programs, post bac programs. The school is allowed to use the same infrastructure for more students. In the end they generate alot of money, but they still may operate in the red because they are supporting things like hospitals or healthcare centers.

There really isn't much distinction between for profit and non-profit medical schools. Both need ot generate revenue to grow and both will cut costs. The for profit institution may be better equipt to do this becaus eof less red tape that a non profit has to deal with. I am not wild about the idea of the for profit medical school because it is counter to every other medical school in the country, but it really isn't much different then any other school
 
Please don't discourage pre-meds from going to DO schools just because you guys are disgruntled about not being able to go Derm/ortho/rads! As I stated before if you want these specialties go MD. If pre-meds are interested in FP, IM, Peds or even EM they will do just fine at a DO school even a NEW one. There are so many slots available for these areas. The prob is actually the reverse. So many DO students want to do ortho and derm that they won't even consider DO programs this is what is leading to the AOA's probs with residency funding etc.

As far as the argument that $$ is the reason schools open, this may be somewhat true but considering that most schools operate in the red I don't think they are cash cows like you think. No matter what your argument is, there IS A physician shortage that will need to be filled somehow. We have great rotation sites set up despite EMORY believe it or not. I can't emphasize enough if you want the top 5 specialties: Rads, Derm, Ortho, spec. surgeries, etc. GO MD and do us all a favor so we don't have to hear the complaining

BMW-

Hey B-
I am currently going for ACGME EM. I was incredibly fortunate in getting >25 interviews. I went on twelve. My chances of scrambling are statistically small, but if I do it will likely be due to my degree.

My top two pre med school places would not interview me. They are very honest and justified in their US LCME grad only position.

We are the 'also rans'. We are accepted based on whim and applicant pool strength for a given year. That said, unlike the AOA, the ACGME programs for the most part are looking for the best candidates. Luckily in my case, I have a proven track record as a good soldier and pretty good stats at a 'known' DO program.

Weak rotations at a school with no track record does not make a tasty candidate. The new MD schools will out comptete us every time given their heritage, endowments and pre-first class ground work. They lay the foundation solidly so their kids are guaranteed a good education. The paltry start up money and begging nature of the clinical paradigm set up by new DO schools puts you on a much weaker footing when you get to that starting line in a year or two.

Reality has very pointy teeth.
 
Fuego,

You are forgetting one thing.....There are about 30 OR MORE DO EM RESIDENCIES! Did you even look into them or just assumed that since they were DO they were crap. Personally I am intersted in EM as well, but def. plan to apply to DO EM residencies and may not even apply ACGME. Just because a program is all AOA does not mean it is subpar. I have heard good things about a lot of DO programs and dually accredited programs as well. In fact if you do a DO accredited program you don't even have to compete with the MD's . What is stopping a lot of DO students from applying to DO resiencies is not the lack of quality but the REQUIRED INTERNSHIP! That is a whole other debate for another time and another forum.

But in a nutshell you are pretty much telling pre-meds that if they go to a branch school they will not get a good residency which has no sound basis for argument because most of these students HAVE NOT REACHED RESIDENCY YET. So don't just assume because you know what it does to you.....!!!!


Hey B-
I am currently going for ACGME EM. I was incredibly fortunate in getting >25 interviews. I went on twelve. My chances of scrambling are statistically small, but if I do it will likely be due to my degree.

My top two pre med school places would not interview me. They are very honest and justified in their US LCME grad only position.

We are the 'also rans'. We are accepted based on whim and applicant pool strength for a given year. That said, unlike the AOA, the ACGME programs for the most part are looking for the best candidates. Luckily in my case, I have a proven track record as a good soldier and pretty good stats at a 'known' DO program.

Weak rotations at a school with no track record does not make a tasty candidate. The new MD schools will out comptete us every time given their heritage, endowments and pre-first class ground work. They lay the foundation solidly so their kids are guaranteed a good education. The paltry start up money and begging nature of the clinical paradigm set up by new DO schools puts you on a much weaker footing when you get to that starting line in a year or two.

Reality has very pointy teeth.
 
There are many fine DO EM GME positions. You will likely get the training you need to become a great EP if you come out of them.

That said, I did not apply DO EM b/c of my particular geographic needs. I did in fact look at two places that would fit my requirements, but in my opinion the training was 'sub-par'. The shaky accreditation status of many of these places is another reason I just couldn't afford to throw my precious chips their way. The extra year is just another car on a train I didn't want to ride.

The RRC for EM on the ACGME side is strict enough, that basically any MD EM residency is guaranteed to train me as well as I feel I need and they have the stability that I require.

I have friends and classmates that are going the DO route and have no regrets. I am sure they know what they are doing. They will all make great docs if their med school careers are a fair set of predictors.
 
Back to the topic at hand-
As one of the DO students that has been forced to be on the outside looking in at the clinical rotations of my allo. counterparts, I know we get shafted when we pay our exhorbitant tuitions.

I attend a very well established school that gets great matches every year. We still are the beggars at the big MD houses in which our allo. counterparts train. They come not only from out of town. These guys come from other states and get slots that are reserved for them. We get the occasional leftover, but the admin. and secretaries know we are last chairs at the table.

There are a finite number of clerkship spots dictated by the finite number of clinician-educators. The number of those spots is stagnant and possibly shrinking as reimbursements continue to tumble. DO schools rarely have practicing clinical faculty. We are trained by community docs out of the kindness of their hearts. When teaching time cuts into productivity guess what goes.

New schools without a history, and with no real foundation (including a tertiary care center) are at a distinct disadvantage. I cannot imagine staking my $$ much less my training on such a weak system.

That was the OP's question and that is my answer.
 
While working on the AACOMAS, I wasn't sure how strong of an applicant I would be so I applied broadly to all of the solid DO programs and a few of the newer programs as backups. But after interviewing at the older more reputable schools, I must say that if given the choice always go with the more established school. I realize that for some people due to their circumstances only have one choice if they want to become a physician, I say go with it. But if you have options, you really need to consider everything. I went to a small private liberal arts college and every where I have been (job interviews, med school interviews, just talking to people) I have always had to explain where my school is since no one has ever heard of it. I mean that is no big deal for undergrad, but when you are applying for a residency (especially if you want to go the allopathic route) you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot more than you already have. To have to explain where you went to med school and where your school is located won't look so hot. In the end, whether we like it or not, the school's reputation for producing good students means more than we might believe.
 
I still think it's wrong for a group to develop a school to provide half of your training. It's like once you get your degree you're not our problem anymore attitude. Of course many of us will leave our home programs but it certainly is comforting to know that there is some place that almost certainly will have some type of spot for you.
 
The Neurosurgeon/emergency physician (dually boarded) that teaches at our "fledgling, weak, subpar" branch school wrote three chapters in the best emergency medicine clinical procedures book on the market. Perhaps you've heard of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-Med...ef=sr_1_1/104-5624415-9115913?ie=UTF8&s=books

I guess that pretty much shoots holes in your theory of "charity" teaching at a weak school system. We have all of the tools necessary to be great physicians, it is usually up to the student to take that path however.

BMW-


Back to the topic at hand-
As one of the DO students that has been forced to be on the outside looking in at the clinical rotations of my allo. counterparts, I know we get shafted when we pay our exhorbitant tuitions.

I attend a very well established school that gets great matches every year. We still are the beggars at the big MD houses in which our allo. counterparts train. They come not only from out of town. These guys come from other states and get slots that are reserved for them. We get the occasional leftover, but the admin. and secretaries know we are last chairs at the table.

There are a finite number of clerkship spots dictated by the finite number of clinician-educators. The number of those spots is stagnant and possibly shrinking as reimbursements continue to tumble. DO schools rarely have practicing clinical faculty. We are trained by community docs out of the kindness of their hearts. When teaching time cuts into productivity guess what goes.

New schools without a history, and with no real foundation
(including a tertiary care center) are at a distinct disadvantage. I cannot imagine staking my $$ much less my training on such a weak system.

That was the OP's question and that is my answer.
 
The Neurosurgeon/emergency physician (dually boarded) that teaches at our "fledgling, weak, subpar" branch school wrote three chapters in the best emergency medicine clinical procedures book on the market. Perhaps you've heard of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-Med...ef=sr_1_1/104-5624415-9115913?ie=UTF8&s=books

I guess that pretty much shoots holes in your theory of "charity" teaching at a weak school system. We have all of the tools necessary to be great physicians, it is usually up to the student to take that path however.

BMW-
It's a good text, but not "the best". We also all have rectums.

My facts regarding DO clinical education stand. The vast majority of DO clinician educators are paid little if at all by the schools. Without dedicated academic faculty teaching students in the SCHOOL's hospital, the clinical experience of osteo. students is predicated on the charity of our instructors in the region.
With less developed networks of clinical faculty, new programs are at a distinct disadvantage.
Please ponder this for a bit before coming back with the defensive bit. We DOs are well represented in EM. The example you gave in addition to the 2003 prez. of ACEP etc. Our success is a testament to those folks that paid heavy dues to prove they were worthy of practicing in the real world. The explosive growth of new programs does nothing for EM and frankly hurts my career as an osteopathic physician.
 
A couple observations/questions:

1)Fuego's comments on the quality of DO clinical education seem like they would be somewhat true of most, if not all, DO programs. While he makes a compelling argument that DO clinical education needs to improve in general, I don't see the evidence that proves these problems will necessarily be worse at a new school. Plenty of people have complained on SDN about rotations at established schools.

2)While some of the comments on this thread would lead one to conclude that there are dramatic differences in rotations/residencies between DO schools, after a brief look at the match lists I don't see much of a difference (with the possible exception of PCOM). At each school, a handful of people match into more competitive specialties, while many more enter primary care or TRIs. Perhaps this is more a reflection of student interests than opportunities; however, if attending a well-established school made a huge difference in the match, seems like it would be more evident on the match lists. It will be interesting to see as the new schools come of age if such a pattern appears.
 
As it is likely that I will only be able to attend one of the newer branch DO programs, some of this information is giving me second thoughts.

Is it better to attend a very reputable caribbean school, such as St Georges, over a newer DO school???
 
A couple observations/questions:

1)Fuego's comments on the quality of DO clinical education seem like they would be somewhat true of most, if not all, DO programs. While he makes a compelling argument that DO clinical education needs to improve in general, I don't see the evidence that proves these problems will necessarily be worse at a new school. Plenty of people have complained on SDN about rotations at established schools.

2)While some of the comments on this thread would lead one to conclude that there are dramatic differences in rotations/residencies between DO schools, after a brief look at the match lists I don't see much of a difference (with the possible exception of PCOM). At each school, a handful of people match into more competitive specialties, while many more enter primary care or TRIs. Perhaps this is more a reflection of student interests than opportunities; however, if attending a well-established school made a huge difference in the match, seems like it would be more evident on the match lists. It will be interesting to see as the new schools come of age if such a pattern appears.

Hmm, I'm not a full-fledged DO student quite yet, but I did want to chime in here to say that there are new DO schools and then there are *new DO schools.* By that, I mean, it seems logical to me that in terms of securing a residency spot, attending a branch school (i.e. Touro) is not quite the same as attending a totally new school. If I attend Touro in NYC and want to complete my residency at a hospital in CA where Touro-CA has established itself in the last 10 years, I think all that matters is that they've heard the word "Touro" and not whether I attended the newer school in NYC or the more established one in CA. Am I totally wrong?
On the other hand, especially with regard to rotations, this is very circumstantial....Take, again, for example Touro in Harlem. Yes, they're a new school, but the sheer concentration of hospitals in NYC versus the need for more comprehensive urban health care, pretty much makes the argument moot. I have a cousin finishing up his EM residency via Cornell's program in the city, and he swears to me that many hospitals in the city (especially ones located in predominantly underserved areas) actually rely heavily on having rotating students and residents around...Anyone?
 
I'm at a new "branch" campus in Florida, and I wonder the same thing. The town the school is in is not that large and there are 5 hospitals here! Not to mention many more within an hour's drive. We just had a hospital day and all were very receptive to having students rotate. Granted, not too many were teaching hospitals...
 
As it is likely that I will only be able to attend one of the newer branch DO programs, some of this information is giving me second thoughts.

Is it better to attend a very reputable caribbean school, such as St Georges, over a newer DO school???

actually, after reading all this, i was considering just simply redoing the process, retake mcat, apply early and go US MD ... however, easier said than done, esp. on the MCAT.

Either way, im not totally sure ...
 
yea clement thats why im having such a hard time deciding between unecom vs tourony.

the location and the # of hospitals in the ny is amazing.
 
First of all people need to realize that it is no mystery that DO schools and the AOA want you to go Primary Care!! Don't go DO and then curse them that they want this. It is not a hidden agenda. If you want Ortho or Rads GO MD!! I love the people that go to DO schools and then curse the osteopathic profession because they can't get Neurosurg! Who are we kidding here.

🙄
 
Is it better to attend a very reputable caribbean school, such as St Georges, over a newer DO school???

You would get a better tan.
 
Hmmmm, let me see. Mosquitos the size of birds, electricity outages, hurricanes, professors that don't care VS. in the US comfortable, all the technology and your own residencies. Yeah I would def. go carribean.

And not to mention trouble with residencies which is what you guys are referencing when talking about "new branch DO schools"!! What do you think you are going to get neurosurg coming out of the carribean! And good luck setting up your rotation sites on your own. Yep forget those "weak" new branch schools, i'd rather take the MCAT 3 times so I can go to a 3rd world country and end up in the same rotations as the guy who went to the crappy new branch school! Just my opinion...At least you'll have the precious MD!:meanie:

BMW-



You would get a better tan.
 
pros to established schools - established residency positions

MANY new schools have NO interest in making sure you have a residency spot, at least at a school with a residency program you're much more likely to have a spot (too early to forecast inability to match from these new schools but it certainly is a concern with the large increase in student docs and zero increase in residency positions).

I am a 1st year at Touro University Nevada and they have already established around 50 residency spots that are preffered to Touro Graduates. They are going to be opening up more in Orthopedics, EM, and Opthalmology. This school is great, you would never guess they were a new school.

-TUNVMS1
 
haha ok "BMW"

first of all....i said "newer DO school" -not "weak" branch campus (that is they way you yourself referred to it).......

Im not sure why you would get so defensive over a simple question......

And, yea--I am obviously planning on going to the caribbean and match neurosurgery......??? Haha ok
 
I've read this thread with great interest, as I go to one of the older "new" schools (AZCOM, 1st class entered 1996). Thru the thread I think a lot of important issues have been touched on that pertain to osteopathic education as a whole. I don't have many answers, but I do have opinion, based on my experience.

For those who don't know, AZCOM is one of these schools that doesn't have a university owned hospital for rotations. They have affiliations/agreements with several area hospitals for residency based rotations, although they have many, many preceptor based rotations that are the backbone behind the clinical years. They also have a fairly liberal rotation policy, in that you can set up whatever you want if the preceptor thing doesn't appeal to you. The first two years at AZCOM are stellar. You will be on an equal footing with any osteopathic school in the country from an didactic standpoint. (Notice I'm not saying "better than anyone else", just equal to).

As I see it, residency based rotations are the gold standard for medical student education. Not to say tht all residency rotations are great (they aren't) or that preceptor based rotations are bad (I've had some very good experieinces with them). However, I think that the big problem with osteopathy in general (OMM, stigma, etc) and DO education in paticular is that we lack credibility because we fail to standardization our education. With a preceptor, who honestly evaluates the effective teaching by the preceptor? Preceptor based rotations and the schools who use them rely on a crapshoot method education. I think that the number of students who take it upon themselves to persevere despite this system speak more to the quality of the students rather than the system. We succeed in spite of the system, not because of it. And it all leads back to a failure of quality control.

It applies to residencies too. I love primary care physicians, the true foot soldiers of medicine. But the AOA's emphasis on primary care hurts us because we focus too much on outpatient medicine. Our allo colleagues are rightly critical of DO education if it relies solely on the preceptor/outpatient model. If DOs really applied DO "philosophy" to education, we'd embrace the whole gamut of specialties. However, I think it's probably easier and less painful for the powers that be to ignore this aspect of education, because it implies weakness in our schools and graduate training. In other words: we DOs emphasize primary care because it's the easiest and most available avenue we have to establish ourselves. (Let me add a disclaimer: there are many motivated, intelligent people in the AOA who see these problems. And they have spoken out about them, but for whatever reason change is very slow in coming.)

So what's the solution? I wish the AOA would mandate that all DO schools financially support a wide range of residency program IN THE CITIES/VICINITIES in which they reside. (It's sort of laughable that AZCOM students are told that we have "our own Midwestern residency programs.... in Chicago.") This means no more stand alone FP or IM residencies, we need Peds, OB, Surgery, Psych, etc, and subspecialties too as appropriate. If this happens, we not only make available the gold standard rotations for DO students, but we create opportunity for existing DOs who love to teach a more supported/funded setting to do so.

The pathway to practicing as a physician does not end at med school graduation, and school that don't make a good faith effort to provide a complete pathway are on shaky moral ground. The pathway should lead straight thru residency, with the ultimate goal being board certification. If we can promote this, we not only strengthen the students and residents, but we add numbers and vitality to osteopathic board socities. This results in more stability, better research, more organization, better support of the political arms of the AOA on state and national levels. In short, by supporting the complete educational pathway we can earn some of the respect that osteopaths deserve.

So back to new schools: I have no problem with them so long as they provide reasonable measures for complete education. If they are just interested in making $$$ while their students languish with preceptors, I say this is wrong. To both they and their enablers in the AOA, a pox on both their houses.

Lastly it was a great experience for me to leave AZ and rotate within established osteopathic education programs. We can do these things, because they are being done well in Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania right now. Interviewing around the country actually restored some of my faith in osteopathic education. There are great residency programs out there. We need leaders with the vision and foresight to apply these principles over the next generation of DO education. There are no quick fixes by any stretch, but these new schools are a good place to start making changes.
 
Don't leave OSU out. I guess I didn't realize how lucky I was to go to a DO school that has it's own teaching hospital a mile away from the medical school...
 
Dr. 14220,

Actually 14220 is was neither I nor you that referred to it as a "weak systemt". It was Fuegorama as quoted below from one of his posts...

"New schools without a history, and with no real foundation (including a tertiary care center) are at a distinct disadvantage. I cannot imagine staking my $$ much less my training on such a weak system."

Therefore it was not directed toward you. As far as the Carribean thing goes I was not trying to bash it. I would certainly have done it if it was my last resort. However, I do not think the "new school"stigma is as big a deal as a lot of people make it out to be. Granted as I stated earlier, it is more security to go to a branch of a well established school (i.e. my school affiliated with PCOM or a Touro branch) rather than say DUCOM. As far as being defensive, yes I do get defensive when people speak of ignorance such as Fuegorama. He has no clue how people from the new branch campuses will fair in residency because none of them are there yet!! Yet he and other state how the branch campuses are "weak and without foundation, only getting charity professors who feel bad for us". I am simply stating that this is not the case and in the end students with top board scores, grades, good letters and rotation evals and connections will get good residency slots whether coming from Touro-NV or NYCOM.

BMW-




haha ok "BMW"

first of all....i said "newer DO school" -not "weak" branch campus (that is they way you yourself referred to it).......

Im not sure why you would get so defensive over a simple question......

And, yea--I am obviously planning on going to the caribbean and match neurosurgery......??? Haha ok
 
Dr. 14220,

Yet he and other state how the branch campuses are "weak and without foundation, only getting charity professors who feel bad for us". I am simply stating that this is not the case and in the end students with top board scores, grades, good letters and rotation evals and connections will get good residency slots whether coming from Touro-NV or NYCOM.

BMW-

On this one I'll have to add that at least in my *new school experience* the people chosen to teach and be directors, deans, even financial aid advisors, etc at a new school (take, again, for example Touro-NY) are people with solid to even high-profile reputations who would in fact enhance/support the reputation of the new school! That is a bonus.
 
On this one I'll have to add that at least in my *new school experience* the people chosen to teach and be directors, deans, even financial aid advisors, etc at a new school (take, again, for example Touro-NY) are people with solid to even high-profile reputations who would in fact enhance/support the reputation of the new school! That is a bonus.

Possibly.

But also remember that the people chosen were (for whatever reason) NOT the deans, dept heads, etc at the school they came from.

When PCOM GA opened up they took a lot of people from PCOM Philly campus...but none of them were the "big wigs" up here. They were people who wanted to advance their careers and move up the ladder but didnt necessarily have the opportunity to do so where they were.

When in doubt, go with the school that more people have heard about.
 
Yeaa. I too would chose a branch DO school before caribbean. And my main reason for doing so it because these schools are American Medical Schools.

However, I would also think that as American Medical Schools, ALL of them should have stable rotations/residency systems in place. And as someone who will probably end up going DO, I hope that these schools ARE stable and WILL provide sufficient clinical training.

DO's face a certain stigma as it is, but I have always thought that their training is the equivalent to MD's. But after reading threads like this one (questioning the sufficience of DO clinical education) it makes me feel much less enthusiatic about my plans to pursue the DO pathway
 
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