Could someone please tell me what they think are the strengths and weaknesses of these New York programs? It seems like Columbia is the powerhouse, with both good research and good psychotherapy, although the residents work very hard. NYU seems like it has the best clinical experiences, although it doesn't have much research. Cornell seems like it is the best program in the country for psychotherapy, but it doesn't have the same diversity of patients as NYU or Columbia, and doesn't have a lot of research. Mt Sinai seems like it is an up and coming program, although still second fiddle to these other three.
New York Programs Psychiatry- Cornell/Mt Sinai/Columbia/NYU
- Thread starter Gomesy
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I would add that you probably work the hardest at NYU and then Cornell, followed by Columbia and then Mt. Sinai. Also, while it may be that Cornell is the best program for psychodynamic psychotherapy, it is not necessarily the best for psychotherapy training in general. Some might argue that Columbia has a more well-rounded psychotherapy training program, along with excellent psychopharmacology training. My 2p.
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Regarding diversity, all 4 programs are in NYC, which is the most diverse city in the country. None of them has the patient population of an Iowa or North Dakota.
My understanding is, however, that at least two of those programs have relatively homogeneous experiences in that a significant percentage of Columbia's patients are Dominican, while a similarly significant percentage of NYU's patients are Afrian American. In addition to the baseline reality that people are kinda similar, so that racial background doesn't matter, these large groups from a single minority can lead to some interesting community-based research. If you consider diversity to be a measure of the numbers of different ethnic groups that make up more than, say, 5% of the patient population, I'd think Cornell was the most diverse, not the least.
If you're looking at socioeconomic diversity rather than ethnic diversity, all of the programs treat large percentages of people on medicaid and medicare, with NYU and Columbia probably treating the largest percentages. Even Mt Sinai and Cornell, both of which are on the fancy Upper East Side, have over half their patient populations on a government insurance (or none at all)-- investment bankers (at least those who still have jobs) do live there, but they don't tend to go to the resident outpatient clinic for their care...
My understanding is, however, that at least two of those programs have relatively homogeneous experiences in that a significant percentage of Columbia's patients are Dominican, while a similarly significant percentage of NYU's patients are Afrian American. In addition to the baseline reality that people are kinda similar, so that racial background doesn't matter, these large groups from a single minority can lead to some interesting community-based research. If you consider diversity to be a measure of the numbers of different ethnic groups that make up more than, say, 5% of the patient population, I'd think Cornell was the most diverse, not the least.
If you're looking at socioeconomic diversity rather than ethnic diversity, all of the programs treat large percentages of people on medicaid and medicare, with NYU and Columbia probably treating the largest percentages. Even Mt Sinai and Cornell, both of which are on the fancy Upper East Side, have over half their patient populations on a government insurance (or none at all)-- investment bankers (at least those who still have jobs) do live there, but they don't tend to go to the resident outpatient clinic for their care...
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There is only one 4-month inpatient rotation at Columbia where you treat primarily Spanish-speaking patients on a community service unit (this is also the only rotation where you will deal with Medicaid patients, though the care on this unit is actually paid for by the state of NY - so their Medicaid status is besides the point). The rest of the inpatient rotations are with primarily English speaking patients. All of the outpatient rotations are primarily English-speaking patients, unless you do an elective at one of the community clinics. The CPEP is a mix, but there is a high representation of Spanish-speaking people there. Same for CL.
I am torn between Columbia and Cornell. It seems to me that Columbia is probably the better overall program. In terms of research (which I'm not that interested in) + clinical experiences (CPEP, state hospital) + psychotherapy + reputation + salary, Columbia seems better than any program in the country, except maybe MGH/McLean. Yet Cornell has wonderful psychodynamic psychotherapy, and I think it has a better system of mentoring for the residents which allows them to really develop their own project during the four years. I can see myself getting lost in all of the business at Columbia. Also, it seems that residents at Cornell don't work quite as hard.
I need some input/advice. Please help!!
I need some input/advice. Please help!!
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What do you mean by "business" at Columbia? Also, my impression is that the work is pretty hard at Cornell, with much higher caps on admissions on call, for example. Columbia probably has a tougher intern year, but in my mind that's an asset. And the psychodynamic psychotherapy is pretty good at Columbia. Not all the residents at Columbia are interested in research, though there is a tendency for people to go into academic positions of some kind.
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One of the heads of Columbia's psych department broke it to me this way (this was before my interview, we have known each other for over a year):
At Columbia, you will get superior research opportunities, but a lesser clinical exposure. One of the problems is that you just have less patient exposure at Columbia -- he said that you will get more at Cornell as well as NYU and Mount Sinai. (He said, you'll get 4x more of every type of psychopathology at NYU than at Columbia.)
As the previous poster said, Cornell does have superior psychodynamic training. It is a deep place -- very analytic -- and they are really focused on clinical training. Not just with the fourth year project, but the mentoring, etc.
Yes, for anyone who has ever been affiliated with Columbia, the administration can be maddening. That is the "business" at Columbia -- where you can get lost in the mix, where the whole institution is so disorganized.... Even my mentor in the Columbia psych department said, what we could really use is an MBA who can fix up the department as well as the whole hospital.
For research oriented people, those who want to do academic medicine that is 75% research and 25% clinical -- Columbia is perfect.
As far as the workload, I know multiple people in different years in both programs. Both work hard. Columbia's intern year, especially the medicine months, are near murderous -- eg. the notorious month of ICU ("rotation from Heck"). Maybe this makes you a better doctor, I don't know, but I think that most people would get more out of a month doing something else rather than ICU. Both work hard throughout, however.
And as for the housing, Columbia's is cheaper but is in Washington Heights (which few psych residents live in, since it is a dark, boring, and quite unpleasant place). Most residents live on the Upper West Side, where rents are typically very high for Manhattan -- I used to live in a so-so expensive area of the Upper West and my rent was $2900 for a 2BR. Cornell's housing -- there is nothing bad to say, it is relatively inexpensive and very nice.
Bottom line, both are up there with MGH, UCLA, whatever programs you want to consider to be the top tier -- all are fantastic. My advice is to pick what fits your personality and temperament, since that is the environment where you're most likely to thrive.
Do Cornell residents see a wide range of psychopathology? It seems like they would never see first breaks, while the CPEPs at Columbia and NYU are crawling with them. Also, I hear the psych ER experience at Cornell is fairly maddening. Is that true?
For someone like me who has little research experience, I feel that Cornell has the structure in place to help me learn how to do research and to set me up with good mentors. Does Columbia provide such structure?
For someone like me who has little research experience, I feel that Cornell has the structure in place to help me learn how to do research and to set me up with good mentors. Does Columbia provide such structure?
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About first breaks: you have to think, where will a person in NYC go if they suddenly become psychotic? They will go to the nearest place (almost definitely not Columbia unless they are in Wash. Heights). Or, if they are picked up by the police, they will most likely go to NYU. Recently a friend of mine at Cornell told me about a psychotic patient he saw, the first presentation for the patient (likely drug-induced). The first break can go to any psych ER -- whether it is "simply" a psych ER or a full-fledged CPEP. What the CPEP is great for is the 72 hour period you have to observe, so you have a little bit longer to observe difficult patients before making the inevitable admit-or-not decision.
As for Cornell's range of psychopathology, they have a ridiculous exposure. Don't forget the Westchester hospital that has individual units for personality disorders. That is amazing to me... Partly why I feel that Cornell gives you this deep understanding about people in general -- not just depression, anxiety, and psychiatric disorders that are not personality disorders. (Apparently they give you a car to drive there if you are at the Westchester hospital and the commute is not bad.)
When my mentor from Columbia told me about how they don't have a lot of clinical exposure, at least in contrast to the other NYC programs, I was surprised. That is partly why they have so much supervision -- because there are less patients. (Granted, Cornell also has a lot of supervision, but I think it's because of their psychoanalytic/clinical emphasis.)
Columbia vs. Cornell with research: I feel that Columbia may be a little more for those people who know already what they want to research. There is mentoring, but something more that you have to seek out and be proactive about. In contrast, Cornell seems to be encouraging and trying to develop residents from early on. This may be overbearing for someone who wants to lay low, but it's just the nature of the institution.
I have a mentor who is a very famous doctor -- a Macarthur "Genius" award winner. This person's take: "Columbia for research, Cornell for clinical."
(Actually, true to the genius' old school roots, it was "Presbyterian for research, New York Hospital for clinical.") I pleaded and asked for a more refined breakdown, but all I got was the same phrase three times in one minute -- in a "simple as that" tone of voice.
If you are doing second looks, I would try to check out the Westchester Payne Whitney clinic as it is a pretty unique clinical experience.
Someone at Columbia told me that you have to do a lot of social work in the ER at Cornell, but I don't know if that is true or not.
So, all else being equal, do we all choose Columbia, Cornell, or NYU? (No one likes to talk about Mount Sinai, I see.) 🙂
So, all else being equal, do we all choose Columbia, Cornell, or NYU? (No one likes to talk about Mount Sinai, I see.) 🙂
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If you are sincerely interested in research, there are many opportunities at many levels available at Columbia, with excellent mentorship. My sense is that both Cornell and NYU are largely clinically oriented programs, with few research opportunities, especially in basic research. There may very well be structure in place at the administrative level to get involved in research at Cornell, but the real question is whether you will find support from individual research mentors, as they are the ones who will play the larger role in shaping you as a researcher. Mt. Sinai is probably the next best program in NYC for research.
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While it may not be relevant, I went to the 4 pertinent web sites and thought I'd count the MD-PhD's in the first couple of years of residency. I couldn't find the list of NYU residents, but Sinai had 1, Cornell had 5, and Columbia had 4.
