Next screenplay's MC is a surgeon, questions about a surgical resident's day

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I was a 3rd year student doing my surgery rotation. After the procedure, my team was standing around in the PACU dictation area (post-anesthesia care unit) while our attending dictated the procedure note. I was hungry; it was probably around 2 pm and we had worked through lunch on a lengthy vascular procedure. I pulled out a granola bar from the pocket of my white coat and proceded to munch down. At that point, the 2nd-year surgical resident turned to me and seriously said (I **** you not!), "Never eat before your attending does."

F that!

Yeah, I guess that's taking the surgery hierarchy too far. But I used to feel really guilty about eating right in front of equally hungry people (i.e the residents and the attending). So I'd either wait, or else I would buy a couple of bags of M&Ms and pass them around.

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It's like how no matter when the attending arrives at the scrub sink, you should always let them finish scrubbing first.

Never sit before the resident/fellow/attending, never eat before them, etc.

:)
 
I'm not so sure about that. The resident is a student/trainee for all intents and purposes. If an attending/faculty/staff member doesn't like him or her, he or she can simply push to have the resident terminated or held back. I've never heard of even one instance of a resident being sued by his or her attending for a disagreement..

The poster who said it could happen wasn't clear at all. Thanks for this, you and Scapula.
 
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This is more of an illustration on the mindset of a surgery resident:

I was a 3rd year student doing my surgery rotation. After the procedure, my team was standing around in the PACU dictation area (post-anesthesia care unit) while our attending dictated the procedure note. I was hungry; it was probably around 2 pm and we had worked through lunch on a lengthy vascular procedure. I pulled out a granola bar from the pocket of my white coat and proceded to munch down. At that point, the 2nd-year surgical resident turned to me and seriously said (I **** you not!), "Never eat before your attending does."

F that!

I guess I buy into the mindset. I don't see anything wrong with the resident correcting you. Yeah, you worked through lunch. Guess what, so did the attending. He/She was probably hungry too, but the work isn't done. Is it really that hard to wait until things are done (maybe you can help with the orders and speed things up)? At least you shouldn't do it right in front of them.

Then again, I'm the kind of person that will offer my chair to my seniors if there aren't any other seats around. I guess it has to do with my military training.
 
My take is that I had the foresight to stash a granola bar in my pocket. They could have, too. Is it REALLY too much to take 15 seconds to eat a quick snack if one is hungry?

This is exactly why I didn't choose surgery. And it's not about lacking respect- I give my chair over to a senior as well. It's about the voluntary self-flagellation that seems to permeate the specialty. It's like everyone gets off on how crappily they are treated.
 
If I'm smart enough to have a bunch of powerbars in my coat I eat them whenever I feel like it. Nobody has ever said anything to me about it. If someone did, I'd offer them one. There's no reason to suffer when a small snack doesn't stop you from doing work because you can eat it in 2 bites.

It's not like you're sitting down and chowing on a big fat steak omelette with cheese, and hashbrowns, maybe some French toast, and a nice big cup of coffee...now I'm hungry.
 
I cannot stand the ridiculous heirarchy. I completely agree with falling in line as far as respecting your elders goes. I don't understand, however, why we have to make it harder than it needs to be. Surgery residency/ rotations/clinicals are hard enough without us piling on a bunch of extraneous cultural norms which have nothing to do with patient care.

It's like the way we do the call schedule at our program. I know that its not against the rules to make someone stay for post-call clinic until noon, but if I can schedule it so that no one has to and can go home at 9 or 10am, why wouldn't I? These little extras go a long way into making surgical residency livable, and surgical residents more human in the end.
 
I cannot stand the ridiculous heirarchy. I completely agree with falling in line as far as respecting your elders goes. I don't understand, however, why we have to make it harder than it needs to be. Surgery residency/ rotations/clinicals are hard enough without us piling on a bunch of extraneous cultural norms which have nothing to do with patient care.

My take on this is that it does have to do with patient care, although indirectly.

Without a well-established hierarchy, people don't quite understand who's the Captain of the Ship and who ultimately is the voice in the room. And this is most important, in my opinion, in a trauma setting. I've seen good trauma leaders and poor trauma leaders. And the difference is how he or she establishes the hierarchy on his or her service. Those who tend to keep a tight ship with their juniors have the best run during a trauma code. Those who want to be the juniors' friends tend to have the juniors walk about and doing what they please, thus negating whatever you're trying to do for the patient actievly trying to die.

It's like the way we do the call schedule at our program. I know that its not against the rules to make someone stay for post-call clinic until noon, but if I can schedule it so that no one has to and can go home at 9 or 10am, why wouldn't I? These little extras go a long way into making surgical residency livable, and surgical residents more human in the end.

As the Administrative Chief Resident in my program, I'll give you my insight into this.

At first I believed that if you treat people more humanely, they'll eventually treat you right and do the right things for the program, the service, and ultimately the patients. They'll like you more because you are the "Chief Resident who cares."

The fact is while the majority of juniors will behave in this manner, you'll almost always have a minority of juniors who believe they're entitled to getting that post-call clinic time off. And they get used to that idea. Who can blame them? I'd LOVE to go home at 8AM or 9AM post call, but I've almost never done that in my residency. There was always something that I had to do. Loose ends, cases, clinics, conference, etc. These juniors who feel they're entitled will friggin' LOSE IT when you ask them to stay. They'll pout, make faces, and generally be counter-productive. They regress and become children.

And then what will happen? How will you, as the Administrative Chief Resident, fix the situation?

It's a tough position to be in. You certainly want the juniors to be happy, but you can't let them run the show. I'm not a fan of this saying but "when you're the zookeeper, never let the animals run the zoo."
 
Re: eating in front of others

I'm not sure this is surgical hierarchy at work here. Read any book of American etiquette and you'll see that it is considered impolite to eat before everyone is able/has been served.
 
How pissed off would an attending be if a Senior Resident went straight to a patient and said: the surgery you're going to have is wrong. You need this surgery. And then patient refused to sign the consent form for the surgery the attending wanted and would only do the one the senior recommended? How big of an asschewing? Some form of discipline?

There's a number of great stories like that historically in surgery involving people who got fired and went on to become prominent.

As I've heard the story about a longtime chair of Plastic Surgery who revolutionized pediatric plastic surgery in the 1960's, was a fellow at Washington University in St. Louis at a time when that was the epicenter in the world for those types of procedures. Apparently he was going around to parents who's children had cleft lips and telling them that the way their childrens' surgery would be done was wrong and that should wait for him to finish his training and he would do them right with the techniques he was envisioning (which would later go on to be the most common way to do these procedures). When word got out he was fired and had to finish his training elsewhere.

The world's first microsurgcal free flap was also done by a plastic surgery fellow when his boss was out of town, whereupon he was fired and effectively black-balled for several years from finishing his training due to the political power of this aggrevied chairman. He later went on to become the most world-famous microsurgeon of his era before limiting his practice to facial cosmetic surgery. He's now the tip rhinoplasty guru of SoCal.

If that happened today, there's likely no other program would accept you to finish training.
 
"Mr. Weeks" you need to have someone go over with you, several times, how the hospital patient-doctor relationship actually works. Concentrate on how a "service" works, who are members, and what are the responsibilities of each. Also, you need to study how a patient is treated during a given inpatient period by hospital staff, who does what and why... (none of what we do in a hospital is well known by the generaal public, and it is complex).

A start, Inpatient Medicine:

http://meded.ucsd.edu/clinicalmed/inpatient.htm

After you figure out a little, you can continue, Clinical Decision Making:

http://meded.ucsd.edu/clinicalmed/thinking.htm

Learn the terms, acronyms and abbreviations, the methodology. Once you get a real grasp of the larger subject, then we can talk specific topics.
 
I think its origins also have to do with its beginnings as an apprenticeship-model, similar to many other guilds - compare to the blacksmith, carpenter, etc. of the medieval era.

Yup. Many of the best surgeons of their day learned by this method. It used to be just a service that the barbers did. The "real" doctors didn't bother with such trivial things. ;) I might not know anything about surgery, but medical history stuff interests me. ;)

As an aside, this is actually a cool thread from the premed perspective. I know it is for the book and whatnot, but most premeds hold these little ideas in their heads too...even if we think we know it all. *cough*
 
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