Nitrous Oxide.....

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Anesdawg

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For those with experience, what is your opinion on the Enigma study? Will this or has this affected your practice?

Study's conclusion: avoidance of nitrous oxide and the concomitant increase in inspirted oxygen concentration decreases the incidence of complications after major surgery, but does not significantly affect the duration of hospital stay. The nitrous oxide in patients undergoing major surgery should be questioned.

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One more thing... who sponsored this study? It wasn't the makers of Suprane, was it?

-copro
 
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Here is a link to the study:
http://www.anesthesiology.org/pt/re...21nXvzzmrBR7nyvb!-838444758!181195628!8091!-1

The main issue is that they compared 2 groups:
1- N2O 70% + O2 30%
2- Nitrogen 20% + O2 80 %
So there is really no way to tell if the better outcome was because of not using N2O or because we used a much higher Oxygen concentration.
I think that they should have replaced N2O with nitrogen while keeping the same O2 concentration in both groups to get more meaningful results.
The study was done in Australia and does not seem to have any pharmaceutical afiliations.
Enigma II is starting soon and they intend to show that N2O causes higher morbidity and mortality in patients with CAD.
I hope this time they take the high oxygen concentration out of the game.
 
This study seems to be comparing two different variables making it hard to come up with a conclusion. They are comparing varying FiO2 and the use or avoidance of nitrous. So they changed both variable for the study so how are we supposed to know if the change in result was due to the change in FiO2 or the use of nitrous? If the study was to compared 50 percent nitrous vs 50 nitrogen, then we could hold the FiO2 steady and determine if nitrous is really detrimental
 
It's not like the study design was an accident. They knew that they were changing two variables. The randomization categories reflect actual clinical practice, as well as reality: if you're going to give supplemental oxygen or nitrous, it's either 80% O2, or 70% nitrous but not both. Quibble all you want about "no way to know if the benefit was due to O2 or nitrous," as there have been other studies, which they cite in the discussion, using nitrogen vs. nitrous and so forth.
 
RARELY in actual practice does someone run 70% nitrous for an entire case. RARELY. Most mixes, at best, are 50/50. And, even so, most people will not use nitrous (at least where I'm training) for the whole case.

What is common is (at least where I am) is to run low-flow air/O2 mix with isoflurane for long cases. At the end, you can use a rich high-flow nitrous/O2 mix to blow-down the iso. The patient will stay asleep.

I don't get pukers. I don't get people with pneumo-anything. I don't have a lot of problems with this technique. And, I don't do it on just anyone or everyone. Nitrous, as someone when I was in med school doing a gas rotation best put it to me, is a "bandaid" that shouldn't form the basis of your primary anesthetic.

Bottom line: this study did not reflect actual practice conditions, and as such doesn't provide much meaningful insight. Furthermore, I recall hearing that the makers of Suprane supplied a grant to defray study costs. I can't log-in right now to look at the disclosure statement on the original study, and I recognize that I might be confusing this with another negative N2O study.

-copro
 
It's not like the study design was an accident. They knew that they were changing two variables. The randomization categories reflect actual clinical practice, as well as reality: if you're going to give supplemental oxygen or nitrous, it's either 80% O2, or 70% nitrous but not both. Quibble all you want about "no way to know if the benefit was due to O2 or nitrous," as there have been other studies, which they cite in the discussion, using nitrogen vs. nitrous and so forth.
80 % Oxygen is not a standard clinical practice.
 
Here's a sweeping generalization to get you worked up, plantk...



Nitrous is obsolete.
 
Now that we have sevoflurane and desflurane (coming off patent in the not too distant future)...there's just no need or justification for using nitrous oxide.
 
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Here are some situations where I still like N2O:
1- Pedi Mask induction in combination with sevo.
2- C sections under GA when you don't want to give too much vapor because you want the uterus to contract but you still want the patient to stay asleep.
3- Occasionally at the end of a GA.
I know that you can do all these things without N2O but I have great results using it and I don't see why I shouldn't.
 
Here are some situations where I still like N2O:
1- Pedi Mask induction in combination with sevo.
2- C sections under GA when you don't want to give too much vapor because you want the uterus to contract but you still want the patient to stay asleep.
3- Occasionally at the end of a GA.
I know that you can do all these things without N2O but I have great results using it and I don't see why I shouldn't.


Use of Nitrous with Sevo in inhalational induction has been studied....using nitrous does not speed induction, but does increase episodes of hypoxia....so nitrous IS obsolete in that it adds nothing except episodes of hypoxia.

as for number 2....I suppose I will admit that is a reasonable use for it...but versed works just fine.

3...well ...that's just obsolete when you have des.
 
Use of Nitrous with Sevo in inhalational induction has been studied....using nitrous does not speed induction, but does increase episodes of hypoxia....so nitrous IS obsolete in that it adds nothing except episodes of hypoxia.

as for number 2....I suppose I will admit that is a reasonable use for it...but versed works just fine.

3...well ...that's just obsolete when you have des.
We don't have Des!
 
The MAC is 70 %.


so how much does one have to run for surgery....probably a hypoxic mixture..right?

From what I remember about it....some of the data on it was generated in hyperbaric environments.
 
so how much does one have to run for surgery....probably a hypoxic mixture..right?

From what I remember about it....some of the data on it was generated in hyperbaric environments.
Yes, they studied it under Hyperbaric conditions as the sole anesthetic, but
It's also good as an adjunct to other anesthetics and it's definitely better and has a lower MAC than Nitrous.
It has a very favorable hemodynamic profile, but as you said it's very expensive.
 
We don't have Des!

:eek:

Seriously?

Not that you cant do without it, but thats kinda strange in this day and age.

Whaddya have......sevo and iso?

Isoflurane was the main agent I trained on (residency 1992-1996). Des hit early in my residency; sevo hit late in my residency.

I'm still trying to decide whether iso should be kept around. Or not.
 
:eek:

Seriously?

Not that you cant do without it, but thats kinda strange in this day and age.

Whaddya have......sevo and iso?

Isoflurane was the main agent I trained on (residency 1992-1996). Des hit early in my residency; sevo hit late in my residency.

I'm still trying to decide whether iso should be kept around. Or not.
No one in our group really feels that we need Desflurane bad enough to push the hospital to buy it.
Although I personally like having it around but I really can't find anything that you can do with it that can't be done with Sevo (If you know what you are doing).
 
obviously just a resident here.

I agree with Plank on the whole Des thing? I think if you titrate Sevo well enough you can see the results that you would with Des. I just hate the tachy ,etc that you can get with Des. Theoretically the catecholamine release from Des only occurs if you are above I think 1.25 MAC or if you turn it up really quick, but I've seen it occur just about at anytime. This will through you off sometimes and you think the pt is light or in pain, etc.


About N2O. I've also tried to stop using it completely. Primarily based on that article in Anesthesiology back in the summer of this year.

N2O causes more atelectasis, you dont have the best wound healing results, increased PONV, increased homocysteine and thus more MI's etc in those at risk. But also...it's an occupational hazard for us (linked to spont ab's in pg women etc...yes I know it occurred primarily in DDS offices where the air isnt turned over as much, but it can still happen). Similar results for men. Only reason I use it now, is for the second gas effect (during induction) and the reverse second gas effect (during emergence).

my dos centabos
 
Here's why I like nitrous and isoflurane -- smooth, predictable, and speedy emergences.

It wasn't until I became a CA-3 that I learned how to dial in nitrous at the end of case in order to speed up emergence, minimize time spent in Stage II, and have speedy, predictable and smooth wake ups, especially with isoflurane. If you know when to dial in your nitrous at the end of a case, you can get some pretty superb emergences from GA, especially with iso.

With sevo, although good for induction in kids, there's just way too much emergence delirium and I don't care how insoluble it is, it seems to take forever to get rid of ... end tidals of 0.3, 0.3, 0.2, 0.3, 0.2, (patient holds breath) 0.4, 0.2, 0.2, 0.3 ... You never feel like the patient has adequately exhaled all the agent until end tidal is on the order of 0.1 or less.

Conversely, as the patient breathes off iso, it stays off. End-tidal is remarkably similar to tissue level.

And des is just a fire-cracker -- patients usually wake up with a bug-eyed start -- not very eloquent.

Here's how I tailor the emergence: (assume regular GA abdo case)

1. 0.1 mg/kg morphine given in holding area in addition to any other premeds (versed, glyco, benadryl, pepcid, reglan, neurontin, celebrex, whatever)

2. induction as you see fit

3. keep patient asleep with 50% oxygen and iso, plus or minus nitrous (if short case) or air (if long case).

4. as case draws towards the end: for example, surgeons start to suture fascia, I turn off the iso, run a 70%/30% nitrous/oxygen mixture, and turn flows waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy down in order to prevent iso from being blown off too quickly.

5. When fascia is closed, I give the reversal +/- anti-emetic cocktail. The reversal itself will cause tachycardia which will further slow down gas elimination (remember, high cardiac output slows inhalation induction as well as emergence). At some point, the tachycardia will return back to baseline and the surgeons will start to close subcutaneous tissue/skin. When both of these events arrive, I increase the RR so that end-tidal CO2 is in the low 30's. I don't want the patient to overbreath the vent. I then turn flows up to about 7/3 or 6/4 for nitrous/oxygen in order to get rid of the isoflurane. When isoflurane is 0.2 end-tidal, and when dressings are being applied, I turn off the nitrous and leave oxygen at 3 or 4 liters/min (very high flows might make patient cough). I'm still breathing for the patient. Patient still is not inititiating breaths at this point for a few reasons: narcotics on board plus I'm hyperventilating them. Within 1-2 minutes of turning off the nitrous, end-tidal nitrous levels should be less 20%. At this point, all you have to do is is gently speak into the patient's ear, "Hey buddy, open your eyes. As soon as they patient does, out comes the ETT." No coughing, no fighting, no bucking, no nothing. Many a surgeon has remarked on how smooth the emergence was. Occasionally I give little dollops of propofol here and there if the closure is taking a long time. It adds another nice little anti-emetic effect to the equation.

Sound complicated? Yeah, I guess it is ... particularly if you're the kind who just simply dials the vaporizer to off at case closure. But that coarse method yields coarse wake ups. And anesthesia is an art ...
 
No one in our group really feels that we need Desflurane bad enough to push the hospital to buy it.
Although I personally like having it around but I really can't find anything that you can do with it that can't be done with Sevo (If you know what you are doing).

Makes sense.
 
This is similar to what a lot of us at Columbia are doing now, except we include desflurane in the mix to assist in coming off iso EARLY.

I run >2 hr cases on iso with air/O2; at 40 min out, crank on N2O/O2 at high flows to get the iso OFF while still maintaining a relatively high MAC, with a paralyzed patient. When iso is down to < 0.25, maintain ~1 MAC with low flow des/N2O/O2. As the fascia is being finished, des comes off, with N2O/O2 at moderate flows, and I give reversal. Propofol is useful if the patient wakes up too quickly. I avoid tachycardia on reversal by giving less glyco (usually 5/0.7 ratio neo/glyco).

What is it with N2O hanging around seemingly forever if you use it for an entire case? N2O is supposed to have such a low blood:gas coefficient, it shouldn't stick around. When I was a CA-1 I would have unarousable patients putting out 5-10% N2O for, like, 20 minutes when the volitile agent was already gone. Very annoying. I avoid using nitrous for more than 20-30 minutes if possible, and have stopped having this problem.

Here's why I like nitrous and isoflurane -- smooth, predictable, and speedy emergences.

It wasn't until I became a CA-3 that I learned how to dial in nitrous at the end of case in order to speed up emergence, minimize time spent in Stage II, and have speedy, predictable and smooth wake ups, especially with isoflurane. If you know when to dial in your nitrous at the end of a case, you can get some pretty superb emergences from GA, especially with iso.

With sevo, although good for induction in kids, there's just way too much emergence delirium and I don't care how insoluble it is, it seems to take forever to get rid of ... end tidals of 0.3, 0.3, 0.2, 0.3, 0.2, (patient holds breath) 0.4, 0.2, 0.2, 0.3 ... You never feel like the patient has adequately exhaled all the agent until end tidal is on the order of 0.1 or less.

Conversely, as the patient breathes off iso, it stays off. End-tidal is remarkably similar to tissue level.

And des is just a fire-cracker -- patients usually wake up with a bug-eyed start -- not very eloquent.

Here's how I tailor the emergence: (assume regular GA abdo case)

1. 0.1 mg/kg morphine given in holding area in addition to any other premeds (versed, glyco, benadryl, pepcid, reglan, neurontin, celebrex, whatever)

2. induction as you see fit

3. keep patient asleep with 50% oxygen and iso, plus or minus nitrous (if short case) or air (if long case).

4. as case draws towards the end: for example, surgeons start to suture fascia, I turn off the iso, run a 70%/30% nitrous/oxygen mixture, and turn flows waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy down in order to prevent iso from being blown off too quickly.

5. When fascia is closed, I give the reversal +/- anti-emetic cocktail. The reversal itself will cause tachycardia which will further slow down gas elimination (remember, high cardiac output slows inhalation induction as well as emergence). At some point, the tachycardia will return back to baseline and the surgeons will start to close subcutaneous tissue/skin. When both of these events arrive, I increase the RR so that end-tidal CO2 is in the low 30's. I don't want the patient to overbreath the vent. I then turn flows up to about 7/3 or 6/4 for nitrous/oxygen in order to get rid of the isoflurane. When isoflurane is 0.2 end-tidal, and when dressings are being applied, I turn off the nitrous and leave oxygen at 3 or 4 liters/min (very high flows might make patient cough). I'm still breathing for the patient. Patient still is not inititiating breaths at this point for a few reasons: narcotics on board plus I'm hyperventilating them. Within 1-2 minutes of turning off the nitrous, end-tidal nitrous levels should be less 20%. At this point, all you have to do is is gently speak into the patient's ear, "Hey buddy, open your eyes. As soon as they patient does, out comes the ETT." No coughing, no fighting, no bucking, no nothing. Many a surgeon has remarked on how smooth the emergence was. Occasionally I give little dollops of propofol here and there if the closure is taking a long time. It adds another nice little anti-emetic effect to the equation.

Sound complicated? Yeah, I guess it is ... particularly if you're the kind who just simply dials the vaporizer to off at case closure. But that coarse method yields coarse wake ups. And anesthesia is an art ...
 
Now that we have sevoflurane and desflurane (coming off patent in the not too distant future)...there's just no need or justification for using nitrous oxide.

I agree.

With the exception of mask induction were I like it but it is not necessary.
 
Only reason I use it now, is for the second gas effect (during induction) and the reverse second gas effect (during emergence).

my dos centabos

No such thing as 'reverse' when it comes to the second gas effect, btw. Diffusion hypoxia, sure, but not reverse second gas effect (wish it were true!).
 
You don't need DES. Sevo can do it all

When I got to my present gig, all that we had was Sevo. We did everything with Sevo. It worked well. I managed to get DES in (called my old residency DES rep and she brought it up to my hosp). Now we all use DES. Much more than Sevo. Probably 80% Des, 5% Sevo, 15% TIVA. Des is that much better IMHO.

I can run them below MAC, use less narcs, faster wakeups. I can wake someone up even on Iso immediately after a case ends but it takes more titration. With Des and low flows, I can get it off in 1/4th or less the time of any other agents. Pts tend to move less often when not paralyzed and therefore i use much less muscle relaxants and then less reversal and then less antiemetics. It all comes into play. It is cheaper and better. Why not us it? Cheaper b/c of all the aspects. I have not seen any study that compares it effectively. I give less of everything when using DES. And they still leave the pacu earlier.
 
Noy,

I'm confused. You don't need DES... sevo can do it all... but DES is better and that's all you use now? What are you recommending? Or, are you not really recommending anything? :confused:

-copro
 
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