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Residentcool

Residentcool

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I guess I am still confused as to the following. Once we fulfill our time requirement for our PGY-2 year in order to avoid a match violation, we can apply to other programs correct? We do not have to give up our spot though, is that right?

We can apply while at the same time remaining in our program. Am I understanding this correctly? Sure I realize that many PDs will want to hear from the current PD, but that doesn't mean we have to resign our spot before applying to other residency positions right?
 
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Residentcool said:
I guess I am still confused as to the following. Once we fulfill our time requirement for our PGY-2 year in order to avoid a match violation, we can apply to other programs correct? We do not have to give up our spot though, is that right?

We can apply while at the same time remaining in our program. Am I understanding this correctly? Sure I realize that many PDs will want to hear from the current PD, but that doesn't mean we have to resign our spot before applying to other residency positions right?
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You can apply while in the program, but sooner or later, you'll have to let your PD know you're switching. Other programs are going to ask for a letter from your PD.
 
Top Gun said:
You can apply while in the program, but sooner or later, you'll have to let your PD know you're switching. Other programs are going to ask for a letter from your PD.
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. I have heard some people switch without talking to their PD know, but ok, I guess it's not entirely unreasonable that programs would ask for a letter from PD.

Do you happen to know when we can start applying after the SOAP? There are so many rules it's hard to keep up with what's safe.

Ultimately if we go through med school and all this training, we should end up being able to go into something that we want. People change their minds, find new passions, etc. It's not a sin to want to go into something else.

Sort of like dating-you don't marry everyone you date!
 
Residentcool said:
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I have heard some people switch without talking to their PD know, but ok, I guess it's not entirely unreasonable that programs would ask for a letter from PD.

Do you happen to know when we can start applying after the SOAP? There are so many rules it's hard to keep up with what's safe.

Ultimately if we go through med school and all this training, we should end up being able to go into something that we want. People change their minds, find new passions, etc. It's not a sin to want to go into something else.

Sort of like dating-you don't marry everyone you date!
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Well, speaking in terms of your dating analogy:

Doing clinical rotations during med school is "dating" different specialties. Matching into a specialty is "marriage." Choosing to go into another specialty after matching into one is "divorce and getting remarried."
 
Top Gun said:
Well, speaking in terms of your dating analogy:

Doing clinical rotations during med school is "dating" different specialties. Matching into a specialty is "marriage." Choosing to go into another specialty after matching into one is "divorce and getting remarried."
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I don't know about that. I don't think that med school specialties is really dating. You don't choose the rotations for the most part, but you choose who you date. I for example knew I would never go into surgery or OB or neurosurg, or peds, but I yet had to do the rotations. You don't date people you don't want to. You don't have a choice but to do the required rotations, even if you that you will never marry them.

You date some specialties and perhaps flirt with a few others you think you may like and may want to marry. Sometimes you choose the wrong one and need to date someone else.
 
There are several timelines you need to consider.

First is the NRMP match commitment. We've already reviewed that you must be in a program for 45 days to satisfy your match committment. Whether that means you can't look for a new program in those 45 days, or you just can't leave in those 45 days, is unclear. Regardless, I think it's really poor form to show up at a new program and start on day one looking for a new position.

Next is the practicality of how this usually works. Not many programs have openings on July 1, so even if you start looking then you're not likely to find anything. Some programs develop openings after July 1 because someone can't start, can't get a visa, etc. Or someone gets ill, or leaves to join another program. If you reapply to the match, there's a fixed timeline for that. if you're looking for open PGY-2 positions, programs tend to find out they have openings in December and January and then start looking to fill. Note that the NRMP is changing its processes, and trying to get programs to put these PGY-2 positions into the match -- we will see how that goes.

So, prime season for hunting open PGY-2 positions tends to be Jan - March. Problem is that your current program may be asking you to sign a new contract in that span. Remember that if you're not staying for next year, I need to find someone new, and prime time for doing that is Jan-Mar. So, you might very well need to decide to not sign your contract for the next year before you actually have a new spot.

Also remember that offering you a contract for the next year is at the discretion of your PD. If you drive people crazy with looking for a new spot, don't seem invested in the program, etc, they may simply decide to cut you loose. Then, if you don't have a new spot, you have nothing.

What you don't seem to be understanding is that residency is a team sport. You and your co-residents will be working as a group. This isn't all about what you want. You made a commitment to this program by matching there, and now you just want to walk away -- or worse, want that training but want to get some other training if possible. If you leave your program, there's a reasonable chance that they will NOT be able to refill your position, as filling positions at higher PGY levels becomes more difficult. if so, then your co-residents will end up pulling your weight.

I realize you have, potentially, had a charge of heart. But you also made a commitment to this program by matching there. Where I come from, that means something. You seem to think this is all about you. It isn't.
 
aProgDirector said:
There are several timelines you need to consider.

First is the NRMP match commitment. We've already reviewed that you must be in a program for 45 days to satisfy your match committment. Whether that means you can't look for a new program in those 45 days, or you just can't leave in those 45 days, is unclear. Regardless, I think it's really poor form to show up at a new program and start on day one looking for a new position.

Next is the practicality of how this usually works. Not many programs have openings on July 1, so even if you start looking then you're not likely to find anything. Some programs develop openings after July 1 because someone can't start, can't get a visa, etc. Or someone gets ill, or leaves to join another program. If you reapply to the match, there's a fixed timeline for that. if you're looking for open PGY-2 positions, programs tend to find out they have openings in December and January and then start looking to fill. Note that the NRMP is changing its processes, and trying to get programs to put these PGY-2 positions into the match -- we will see how that goes.

So, prime season for hunting open PGY-2 positions tends to be Jan - March. Problem is that your current program may be asking you to sign a new contract in that span. Remember that if you're not staying for next year, I need to find someone new, and prime time for doing that is Jan-Mar. So, you might very well need to decide to not sign your contract for the next year before you actually have a new spot.

Also remember that offering you a contract for the next year is at the discretion of your PD. If you drive people crazy with looking for a new spot, don't seem invested in the program, etc, they may simply decide to cut you loose. Then, if you don't have a new spot, you have nothing.

What you don't seem to be understanding is that residency is a team sport. You and your co-residents will be working as a group. This isn't all about what you want. You made a commitment to this program by matching there, and now you just want to walk away -- or worse, want that training but want to get some other training if possible. If you leave your program, there's a reasonable chance that they will NOT be able to refill your position, as filling positions at higher PGY levels becomes more difficult. if so, then your co-residents will end up pulling your weight.

I realize you have, potentially, had a charge of heart. But you also made a commitment to this program by matching there. Where I come from, that means something. You seem to think this is all about you. It isn't.
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While I certainly do respect your opinion, it would be crazy to do a whole residency if one has had a change of heart and wants to do a different specialty. Programs, imo, should have the goal of helping residents find something they want to do with their lives. Further, please keep in mind that programs "screw over" their residents all the time, whether it is by having them work excessively, basically doing attendings' jobs while they sleep at home and enjoy their weekends, etc. Let's not forget also that many programs have 0 loyalty to their residents -perfect example is the residency program in NJ (St. Barnabas) that decided on a whim to shut down its radiology program to fund primary care residencies and leave their 11 residents with NO RESIDENCY and NO FUNDING as well. Same with the rads program at Bronx Lebanon that left their residents high and dry, the hospital that shut down in NY a few years ago that left all its residents with no programs and no funding. So it goes both ways.

Most people have good intentions, but things do change sometimes. People do have a right to change their mind. I'm sure if there weren't all these rules and regulations it would be far far simpler to change with less stress and less chaos, both for applicants and for the programs.

And I guess I did not realize that spots that do open up can be put outside the match as you mentioned!!! But thanks for telling me!
 
I agree that you could find yourself in a malignant residency that treats its residents badly and want to switch (many of the smaller, IMG-filled residencies), or that you could have a change of heart and want a different speciality, etc.

But I also think it's important to be careful when making your ROL and consider carefully what programs you enter into your list. Some people will enter programs into their ROL that they interviewed at, but actually didn't like. Then they end up matching there and have to go because it is a binding agreement, and they end up unhappy.

Rule of thumb, if you don't want to go there, don't write it in your ROL.
 
Jessipeds said:
I agree that you could find yourself in a malignant residency that treats its residents badly and want to switch (many of the smaller, IMG-filled residencies), or that you could have a change of heart and want a different speciality, etc.

But I also think it's important to be careful when making your ROL and consider carefully what programs you enter into your list. Some people will enter programs into their ROL that they interviewed at, but actually didn't like. Then they end up matching there and have to go because it is a binding agreement, and they end up unhappy.

Rule of thumb, if you don't want to go there, don't write it in your ROL.
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What you are talking about are 2 completely different issues. I have no problem with the program, I like it just fine and I believe it was my first choice. I did not rank all programs I interviewed at, precisely because I did not want to go to some of them, but I have no qualms with the program itself.

Changing one's mind regarding a specialty is completely different, apples to oranges. That's the big difference.

ROL has nothing to do with anything in this scenario.
 
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