No DO shadowing - submit AACOMAS now?

[s.aureus]

So, I know that there are many threads pertaining to DO shadowing. However, this thread is directed to a specific situation. I have everything filled out on AACOMAS. The service has my MCAT information and transcripts (I have competitive stats). I have all my letters of recommendation, including from an MD for a lengthy period of shadowing. I do not have any DO physician shadowing. This is a problem for some of the schools I am interested in applying to.

PCOM - Philadelphia, for example, strongly recommends I shadow a DO and has stated when I contacted them, that the far majority of admitted students have that experience. DMU has a secondary that specifically asks for osteopathic experience in primary care. Should I apply to these schools now and send them updates (via secondaries) as I finish the shadowing? Or should I wait 2-3 months when my shadowing is completed (limited time to shadow each month) and then apply? Also, any responses are appreciated from current or former students of either of those two schools.

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[Henry101]

I'm in the same boat as you. I am planning on submitting soon and, when I find a DO to shadow and start, I will add the activity online. AACOMAS allows you to add activities even after you submitted the application.
Hope this helps.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Well, you will certainly have a hard time answering the question "Why D.O.?" if you have absolutely no Osteopathic knowledge or physician shadowing experience. A lot of D.O. schools require an Osteopathic Physician LOR. But, best of luck.

 

[s.aureus]

I'm in the same boat as you. I am planning on submitting soon and, when I find a DO to shadow and start, I will add the activity online. AACOMAS allows you to add activities even after you submitted the application.
Hope this helps.

It does. So are you planning on contacting the individual schools you are applying to, to inform them about your updates? Also, for people reading this that have shadowed a DO physician, did that physician practice within primary care?

 

[OrdinaryDO]

It does. So are you planning on contacting the individual schools you are applying to, to inform them about your updates? Also, for people reading this that have shadowed a DO physician, did that physician practice within primary care?

It doesn't matter where the DO practiced. Ideally, if your school is very heavy on producing rural physicians, then I cannot say it wouldn't help to have a FM Physician (D.O.) write you a letter as opposed to a surgeon. But, when I shadow a DO I don't just watch them work, I ask questions and pick their brain and try to obtain as much information as I can. I think medical schools assume this for most people who shadow.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

I shadow a DO I don't just watch them work, I ask questions and pick their brain and try to obtain as much information as I can. I think medical schools assume this for most people who shadow.

Hmm, do not know what is your point from asking them questions?. Frankly, Most DO's approach, diagnose, and treat as MD's. They honestly do not use OMT period for certain reasons; simply, because insurance will not pay or cover OMT.

 

[s.aureus]

Ok, so I'm not really getting the answers I'm looking for. Here's what I'm asking: in your opinion, would you submit the AACOMAS application? Why or why not? By the time I have my DO shadowing complete (I have done MD shadowing), it will be November, which I believe is considered late in the cycle (although I am unsure about this). I am not applying to schools that require DO shadowing. I also never said that I did not have any knowledge of osteopathic medicine.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Hmm, do not know what is your point from asking them questions?. Frankly, Most DO's approach, diagnose, and treat as MD's. They honestly do not use OMT period for certain reasons; simply, because insurance will not pay or cover OMT.

I don't know how I can make this any more clear. If you shadow a DO or and MD and don't ask questions, then you are wasting your time. Period..Also, I have to disagree with your statement as to how DOs approach each patient; Osteopathic schools may have similar classroom education, but they do have different methods of treating and diagnosing patients. Osteopathic medicine was founded and built on a foundation for which physicians treated and diagnosed patients using hands-on care with a focus that relied heavily on preventative risk factors. OMM/OMT is still widely accepted, according to every DO I have shadowed, so I have no idea where you picked up that information from. In fact, the DOs I have spoken with have said on numerous occasions that they use OMM/OMT in the E.R. to keep the cost of the visit down and they explicitly said it is a billable treatment.

To say things in a little different manner; Why do you think it is important to most DO schools that you have a DO LoR? Because, DOs and MDs are NOT the same and do NOT approach patients with same mind set. Also, they want to know why you want to attend an Osteopathic school, since after all, DO schools aren't just Plan B schools for people who can't make MD programs. These schools produce very respected doctors in various fields.

I wouldn't recommend generalizing two different medical degrees based on the assumption that since they have similar curriculum they must be taughtthe same. Not true.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Ok, so I'm not really getting the answers I'm looking for. Here's what I'm asking: in your opinion, would you submit the AACOMAS application? Why or why not? By the time I have my DO shadowing complete (I have done MD shadowing), it will be November, which I believe is considered late in the cycle (although I am unsure about this). I am not applying to schools that require DO shadowing. I also never said that I did not have any knowledge of osteopathic medicine.

No one is implying you have no knowledge of Osteopathic schools, I just thought I would mention that it would look a little strange to have someone apply to a DO school without shadowing experience with a DO. But, as long as you are not applying to a school that requires DO shadowing or a DO LoR, then yes, go on and apply since you meet the criteria.

 

[AlteredScale]

OP, what are your stats?

 

[s.aureus]

OP, what are your stats?

Mcat - 30 cGPA - 3.6 sGPA - 3.6 . Also, that MCAT is from 2014, so I think it expires if I apply to KCUMB next cycle (if I don't get in this cycle). I have all prerequisites completed for the programs I wish to apply for.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Mcat - 30 cGPA - 3.6 sGPA - 3.6

Apply..

 

[buttfrogs]

If I were in your position I would go ahead and apply this year. DMU requires a physician letter, but not a DO specifically. A strong letter from an MD should work just fine. And be prepared to explain why you want to be a DO and why you want to go to DMU (same question you'll be asked everywhere else too). I shadowed a DO but I didn't have an answer for the "osteopathic experience in primary care" question on DMU's secondary either, because the DO I shadowed wasn't in primary care.

If you get accepted this cycle without shadowing a DO, great. If you don't, you have time to shadow a DO for the next cycle, among other things. But with your stats I think it would be silly to waste the year just because you're not 100% confident right now.

 

[s.aureus]

If I were in your position I would go ahead and apply this year. DMU requires a physician letter, but not a DO specifically. A strong letter from an MD should work just fine. And be prepared to explain why you want to be a DO and why you want to go to DMU (same question you'll be asked everywhere else too). I shadowed a DO but I didn't have an answer for the "osteopathic experience in primary care" question on DMU's secondary either, because the DO I shadowed wasn't in primary care.

If you get accepted this cycle without shadowing a DO, great. If you don't, you have time to shadow a DO for the next cycle, among other things. But with your stats I think it would be silly to waste the year just because you're not 100% confident right now.

When you say "go ahead and apply this year", both of my plans involve applying this year, either in August (now) or November (when I have fully shadowed a DO physician), since the latest filing date for DMU for this cycle is 2/1/2016. So, you're suggesting applying now?

 

[buttfrogs]

When you say "go ahead and apply this year", both of my plans involve applying this year, either in August (now) or November (when I have fully shadowed a DO physician), since the latest filing date for DMU for this cycle is 2/1/2016. So, you're suggesting applying now?

Sorry, I mixed up what you were asking. Yes, I would apply as early as possible.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

I don't know how I can make this any more clear. If you shadow a DO or and MD and don't ask questions, then you are wasting your time. Period..Also, I have to disagree with your statement as to how DOs approach each patient; Osteopathic schools may have similar classroom education, but they do have different methods of treating and diagnosing patients. Osteopathic medicine was founded and built on a foundation for which physicians treated and diagnosed patients using hands-on care with a focus that relied heavily on preventative risk factors. OMM/OMT is still widely accepted, according to every DO I have shadowed, so I have no idea where you picked up that information from. In fact, the DOs I have spoken with have said on numerous occasions that they use OMM/OMT in the E.R. to keep the cost of the visit down and they explicitly said it is a billable treatment.

To say things in a little different manner; Why do you think it is important to most DO schools that you have a DO LoR? Because, DOs and MDs are NOT the same and do NOT approach patients with same mind set. Also, they want to know why you want to attend an Osteopathic school, since after all, DO schools aren't just Plan B schools for people who can't make MD programs. These schools produce very respected doctors in various fields.

I wouldn't recommend generalizing two different medical degrees based on the assumption that since they have similar curriculum they must be taughtthe same. Not true.

I shadowing a DO, a former faculty professor as well. We all know that shadowing a DO/MD is not to ask questions( what are the question you may ask, we are not medical student yet.( do you know how to read a lab report, do know what is abnormal EKG, what is PVS) your/my time there at their practice is only to observe what is a doctor day like? how to be around patients?. As I said insurance company does not pay for OMT, believe or not.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

DOUBLE POST

 

[Stagg737]

Apply now. Trying to give yourself a better chance at 1 or 2 schools is not worth delaying your application to every school. I can tell you that at my school the class of 2019 was filled by the end of December, and anyone who submitted a secondary after mid-October was waitlisted. Some of them got in off the waitlist, but I'm sure many did not. The earlier you apply the better, you can always keep in contact with the schools and give them updates.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I shadowing a DO, a former faculty professor as well. We all know that shadowing a DO/MD is not to ask questions( what are the question you may ask, we are not medical student yet.( do you know how to read a lab report, do know what is abnormal EKG, what is PVS) your/my time there at their practice is only to observe what is a doctor day like? how to be around patients?. As I said insurance company does not pay for OMT, believe or not.

Your assumptions are misleading you to believe I am asking questions such as those you have stated above. You couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, let me start off by mentioning that there are no set rules or obligations when it comes to shadowing. You do not have a set agenda, you are there for your own purpose of discovering what it is about this particular part of medicine that interests you. If your question is about an abnormal lab result, then so be it. I have been in the medical field for just over 6 years now, full time, concurrently enrolled in a univerisity full time. The types of questions I ask range from being very specific (ex. "When would you use a glide-scope during an intubation?"), to very broad, (ex "How do you generally begin your assessment of an individual in the E.R.?"). By you putting restrictions on what you can and cannot ask, you are only limiting your experience and your capability to learn valuable information.

Please. before you ramble on once more about how OMM/OMT is not a billable treatment to insurances do some research. You can say all day long you know of a guy who said it is not billable, but I personally know of a physician who used OMM in the E.R. and bills it through insurance companies for compensation. This may not be true for ALL insurance companies, but it most certainly can be for some.

Read it and reap: Proof of Billable OMT for insurance carriers:

http://www.kcumb.edu/uploadedFiles/..._Presentations/KCUMBWinterCME_McClain12_8.pdf

 

[s.aureus]

Apply now. Trying to give yourself a better chance at 1 or 2 schools is not worth delaying your application to every school. I can tell you that at my school the class of 2019 was filled by the end of December, and anyone who submitted a secondary after mid-October was waitlisted. Some of them got in off the waitlist, but I'm sure many did not. The earlier you apply the better, you can always keep in contact with the schools and give them updates.

Thank you.

 

[Stagg737]

As I said insurance company does not pay for OMT, believe or not.

This is misleading. Some insurance companies may not allow you to bill for OMT, however there are many insurance companies that do fully reimburse for this treatment.

Please. before you ramble on once more about how OMM/OMT is not a billable treatment to insurances do some research. You can say all day long you know of a guy who said it is not billable, but I personally know of a physician who used OMM in the E.R. and bills it through insurance companies for compensation. This may not be true for ALL insurance companies, but it most certainly can be for some.

Read it and reap: Proof of Billable OMT for insurance carriers:

http://www.kcumb.edu/uploadedFiles/..._Presentations/KCUMBWinterCME_McClain12_8.pdf

Once again, whether or not OMM is reimbursable depends on the insurance company. Also, idk who you shadowed, but if he was using OMM on a patient with a medical emergency I would highly question his methods.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

I have been in the medical field for just over 6 years now, full time, concurrently enrolled in a univerisity full time. The types of questions I ask range from being very specific (ex. "When would you use a glide-scope during an intubation?"), to very broad, (ex "How do you generally begin your assessment of an individual in the E.R.?"). By you putting restrictions on what you can and cannot ask, you are only limiting your experience and your capability to learn valuable information.

This is not relevant to why medicine nor why osteopathic medicine. Some DO schools suggest/ expect each applicant to shadow DO, but only hand full of applicants actually get to see OMT in action, I am not one of those.

I have been in the medical field for just over 6 years now, full time, concurrently enrolled in a univerisity full time. The types of questions I ask range from being very specific (ex. "When would you use a glide-scope during an intubation?"), to very broad, (ex "How do you generally begin your assessment of an individual in the E.R.?"). By you putting restrictions on what you can and cannot ask, you are only limiting your experience and your capability to learn valuable information.

Good for you!. I won't argue with you, perhaps you're one go lucky kind of guy who knew how to secure a position like that. I just do not think any DO will answer a specific questions like these when he is running around in the ER/ his own practice.he is not your/my preceptor.

Shadow= follow and observe (someone) closely.

Read it and reap: Proof of Billable OMT for insurance carriers:

http://www.kcumb.edu/uploadedFiles/..._Presentations/KCUMBWinterCME_McClain12_8.pdf

Great link, thanks for sharing!

 

[Ahii]

How the shadowing experience goes depends on who you're shadowing.

The DO I shadowed Friday even let me ask questions and suggest things to patients.

I think standard procedure is observe and take physical or mental notes then maybe ask questions after if there's time.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Once again, whether or not OMM is reimbursable depends on the insurance company. Also, idk who you shadowed, but if he was using OMM on a patient with a medical emergency I would highly question his methods.

I think we both agree that the OMM billing is insurance dependent, but you can always verify someone's insurance before performing this technique. Also, just because I said it was used in the emergency department, does not mean the patient was in any way critical or unstable. I would expect you to know, being a medical student, that the vast majority of E.D. cases are actual non-emergent cases. A lot of people who visit the E.D. come in with lower back pain. Whether they are pill seeking or actually experiencing lower back pain, guess what, OMT is a therapeutic measure you could take if billable. I have worked in 3 major E.R.s (well, worked in 2, volunteered in 1.) and I can say with confidence that I have witnessed more OMT in the E.D. than anywhere else I have worked. Now, that's not to say my word is the end all be all, but it sure does prove something to me.

This is not relevant to why medicine nor why osteopathic medicine. Some DO schools suggest/ expect each applicant to shadow DO, but only hand full of applicants actually get to see OMT in action, I am not one of those.

You are either directly or indirectly implying that the only difference in shadowing a DO and an MD is the fact that DOs use OMM/OMT. This is far from correct. Also, this is a public forum, therefore the information I share is with the intent that others will read and learn from it as well. So, if this information does not directly benefit you then don't take it to heart.

Good for you!. I won't argue with you, perhaps you're one go lucky kind of guy who knew how to secure a position like that. I just do not think any DO will answer a specific questions like these when he is running around in the ER/ his own practice.he is not your/my preceptor.

Shadow= follow and observe (someone) closely.

You sure are a negative Nancy. Sure, you can be a shadow in the dark; someone who sits back and bores the hell out of the physician who took the time out of his/her day to bring you along, show you the view, TEACH YOU ABOUT MEDICINE. You might think this is kind of ironic, but the first DO I ever shadowed (DO being insignificant in this story) told me that she absolutely encourages asking questions. She said to me how else will I ever learn? This same DO happens to be on staff at my top school I am applying to. If you don't ask questions, you will never know the answers. How can you sit back and shadow a physician and NEVER become curious as to WHAT they are doing, or WHY they are doing something? I would never direct someone to taking your advice if you are one to believe that shadowing is just keeping your mouth shut and observing.

To each their own.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

You are either directly or indirectly implying that the only difference in shadowing a DO and an MD is the fact that DOs use OMM/OMT. This is far from correct. Also, this is a public forum, therefore the information I share is with the intent that others will read and learn from it as well. So, if this information does not directly benefit you then don't take it to heart.

I know that differences between MD and DO is not OMT only. The OMT is just one of the unique tools that a DO has in his box, which helps significantly when some resources are not available, or inadequate.

I am totally fine with you sharing this information, and I appreciate you letting me know that some DO's can get compensated for OMT if it is acceptable by certain insurance companies.

ou sure are a negative Nancy. Sure, you can be a shadow in the dark; someone who sits back and bores the hell out of the physician who took the time out of his/her day to bring you along, show you the view, TEACH YOU ABOUT MEDICINE. You might think this is kind of ironic, but the first DO I ever shadowed (DO being insignificant in this story) told me that she absolutely encourages asking questions. She said to me how else will I ever learn? This same DO happens to be on staff at my top school I am applying to. If you don't ask questions, you will never know the answers. How can you sit back and shadow a physician and NEVER become curious as to WHAT they are doing, or WHY they are doing something? I would never direct someone to taking your advice if you are one to believe that shadowing is just keeping your mouth shut and observing.

I never said you kick back, and enjoy the ride. What I am trying to say is I try not to burden the doctor with a whole lot of questions when it comes to certain area. Certainly, I ask questions most of the time, but I have to be considerate of his meaningful time between me, his staff, and my experience. WE shadow to explore medicine as a career, know what a DO does, what is the difference, and more importantly can we see ourselves happy/content doing this the rest of our life.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I know that differences between MD and DO is not OMT only. The OMT is just one of the unique tools that a DO has in his box, which helps significantly when some resources are not available, or inadequate.

I am totally fine with you sharing this information, and I appreciate you let me that some DO's can get compensated for OMT if it is acceptable by certain insurance companies.

I never said you kick back, and enjoy the ride. What I am trying to say is I try to burden the doctor with a whole lot of questions when it comes to certain area. Certainly, I ask questions most of the time, but I have to be considerate of his meaningful time between me, his staff, and my experience. WE shadow to explore medicine as a career, know what a DO does, what is the difference, and more importantly can we see ourselves happy/content doing this the rest of our life.

Not sure what happened with what you were saying before, but I can certainly agree with this.

 

[Stagg737]

I think we both agree that the OMM billing is insurance dependent, but you can always verify someone's insurance before performing this technique. Also, just because I said it was used in the emergency department, does not mean the patient was in any way critical or unstable. I would expect you to know, being a medical student, that the vast majority of E.D. cases are actual non-emergent cases. A lot of people who visit the E.D. come in with lower back pain. Whether they are pill seeking or actually experiencing lower back pain, guess what, OMT is a therapeutic measure you could take if billable. I have worked in 3 major E.R.s (well, worked in 2, volunteered in 1.) and I can say with confidence that I have witnessed more OMT in the E.D. than anywhere else I have worked. Now, that's not to say my word is the end all be all, but it sure does prove something to me.

To the bolded: This is why I said "on a patient with a medical emergency" before. I've worked in the E.D. I know what it entails. The key statement in your post though is "if billable". OMT is pretty variable in terms of whether one can be reimbursed for it, and the department performing the treatment is one aspect. In the hospital I worked at, FM and IM docs could be reimbursed while EM docs weren't under certain insurance plans. It completely depends on the billing codes. Specifically which codes specific departments can use and what codes the insurance companies will actually accept.

I know that differences between MD and DO is not OMT only. The OMT is just one of the unique tools that a DO has in his box, which helps significantly when some resources are not available, or inadequate.

You'd be surprised...

 

[OrdinaryDO]

To the bolded: This is why I said "on a patient with a medical emergency" before. I've worked in the E.D. I know what it entails. The key statement in your post though is "if billable". OMT is pretty variable in terms of whether one can be reimbursed for it, and the department performing the treatment is one aspect. In the hospital I worked at, FM and IM docs could be reimbursed while EM docs weren't under certain insurance plans. It completely depends on the billing codes. Specifically which codes specific departments can use and what codes the insurance companies will actually accept.

My whole intention of bringing that part into the equation was in response to an earlier poster who said that OMM/OMT was not a reimbursable practice. Hence,

Hmm, do not know what is your point from asking them questions?. Frankly, Most DO's approach, diagnose, and treat as MD's. They honestly do not use OMT period for certain reasons; simply, because insurance will not pay or cover OMT.

I never expressed for a second that it was ALWAYS accepted by insurances, but it can be on many occasions. But, I thought this discussion was over?