No Freedom of Religion in the practice of medicine

[Pooh & Annie]

You might feel differently if your own mortality was more imminent than 50-60 years away.

I don't doubt that at all. And I hope you're right.

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[jwk]

... not one of the questions listed above is difficult to answer.

Really? They must be pretty simplistic answers.

 

[jwk]

You're in a huge minority there, Plank.

I humbly disagree with your stance and find it shortsighted of you to imply that a physician must cast aside his religious beliefs at work.....especially for elective procedures.

Noone will force me to do something I don't believe is right.

Well said Jet - and so much more tactful than I could have put it.

 

[Planktonmd]

Well said Jet - and so much more tactful than I could have put it.

Really?
How would you have put it?

 

[Planktonmd]

This thread has been entertaining and I do apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, but we can't all be good religious citizens who bare arms and don't trust the government, some one has to be the evil one.

 

[jetproppilot]

Really?
How would you have put it?

WOW PLANK, YOU'RE AT AN IMPASSE HERE.

You started the Hugs, Roses, and Rainbows survey concerning how we can cater to the intimidated.

Lets face it....YOU THINK MIL should tone it down....greet every med student/resident with a coffee, a donut, and a gift-card to Target before delivering his knowledge....

CAN YOU ADMIT THIS? CAN YOU BE HONEST WITH OUR AUDIENCE?

I'm not always politically correct.....actually I'm rarely politically correct....but I am honest.

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

I like the fact that our forum resembles real life medical training.

One of the big-gun-bloggers here on SDN, JWK himself, delivers an attenuated opinion about something controversial, trying to, you know, bow out of a gunbattle....

And yet you obviously wanna hear what he REALLY WANTS TO SAY.

Take a deep breath, Plank, and think about what follows:

I'D LIKE SDN ANESTHESIA TO BE THE SITE WHERE PEOPLE SAY WHAT THEY WANNA SAY, NOT WHATS "EXPECTED" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO SAY.

WHICH WAY YA WANT IT PLANK?

REAL or Memorex?

You're preaching one way yet begging another.

Thats, uhhhhh, hippocracy, Dude.

I vote to have JWK lay it on you.

 

[jetproppilot]

WOW PLANK, YOU'RE AT AN IMPASSE HERE.

You started the Hugs, Roses, and Rainbows survey concerning how we can cater to the intimidated.

And yet one of the big-gun-bloggers here on SDN, JWK himself, delivers an attenuated opinion about something controversial.

And yet you obviously wanna hear what he REALLY WANTS TO SAY.

Take a deep breath, Plank, and think about what follows:

I'D LIKE SDN ANESTHESIA TO BE THE SITE WHERE PEOPLE SAY WHAT THEY WANNA SAY, NOT WHATS "EXPECTED" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO SAY.

WHICH WAY YA WANT IT PLANK?

REAL or Memorex?

You're preaching one way yet begging another.

Thats, uhhhhh, hippocracy, Dude.

I vote to have JWK lay it on you.

I guess what this post means is I'M TIRED OF ALL THE FEEL GOOD S HIT AND POLITICALLY CORRECT POSTS.... ITS TIME TO CONFRONT THE ISSUES HERE.

PLANK, YOU'RE PREACHING ROSES BUT DEMANDING THE TRUTH.

I think thats some kiss-a ss s hit.

 

[Planktonmd]

I guess what this post means is I'M TIRED OF ALL THE FEEL GOOD S HIT AND POLITICALLY CORRECT POSTS.... ITS TIME TO CONFRONT THE ISSUES HERE.

PLANK, YOU'RE PREACHING ROSES BUT DEMANDING THE TRUTH.

I think thats some kiss-a ss s hit.

I understand that me trying to find out if medical students are being terrified by certain individuals on this forum could be a sensitive subject for you but I can't ignore such a complaint from a student.
I did state my opinion clearly on the subject of this thread from the very beginning and I was attacked by many people which is not surprising since the vocal majority on this forum is a conservative group of people, and that's fine but I am not going to sugar coat on my opinions to make you or anyone else happy.
There are many people who share my point of view and if they are a minority that doesn't mean they need to shut up.
And when someone has something to add to the discussion like JWK it's probably more productive to give an intelligent opinion than just saying that he would have said worse things.
I find it impolite and rude when someone says that they could have put it in a less tactful way.

And last but not least I do not classify anything I say as kiss-a ss s hit.
I never did and never will kiss a ss.
And one more thing: Let's not play cheap politics on this forum.

 

[jetproppilot]

And one more thing: Let's not play cheap politics on this forum.

DUDE, ARE YOU FOR REAL?

I'm from Florida. I'm a redneck. I drive a Monsta Truck.

I dip Copenhagen.

For some unknown reason, God made me really good at this anesthesia gig.

The medicine part....the procedures part....the clinical decision making part....and the catering to surgeons part....but not the dealing with upper-echelon-administration part.

I currently live in New Orleans and recently changed hospitals because I couldnt agree with the micromanaging Chief Medical Officer at my first New Orleans gig....

And you're accusing me of CHEAP POLITICS?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hardly, Slim.

I just call it like I see it.

Which isn't always the feel good thing to do.

Especially with upper echelon administration.

Which is what youre reminding me of about now.

 

[Planktonmd]

Lets face it....YOU THINK MIL should tone it down....greet every med student/resident with a coffee, a donut, and a gift-card to Target before delivering his knowledge....

This is not my opinion as you very well know and I have from the very beginning clearly stated that I am not going to be part of this issue since I will be accused of being biased.
I was one of the few people who actually wondered where MMD was when he disappeared from the forum for a while and I protested the attempts to censor him.

I am not going to discuss this further on the public forum.

 

[Planktonmd]

DUDE, ARE YOU FOR REAL?

I'm from Florida. I'm a redneck. I drive a Monsta Truck.

I dip Copenhagen.

For some unknown reason, God made me really good at this anesthesia gig.

The medicine part....the procedures part....the clinical decision making part....and the catering to surgeons part....but not the dealing with upper-echelon-administration part.

I currently live in New Orleans and recently changed hospitals because I couldnt agree with the micromanaging Chief Medical Officer at my first New Orleans gig....

And you're accusing me of CHEAP POLITICS?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hardly, Slim.

I just call it like I see it.

Which isn't always the feel good thing to do.

Especially with upper echelon administration.

Which is what youre reminding me of about now.

I think you are reacting because you think that I am against your friend MMD and I think this is a very childish reaction.
Here, I can say it as it is as well.

 

[antihero]

Two things.1) is introspection about the attitudes and needs you have yourself, to display knowledge, and make other people look bad. 2) is the measures SDN will take to minimize people being trashed. Measures as in 2) requires constant surveillance from a mod. I know this from other fora, it is quite easy to babysit bad language, but it is quite hard to draw the line between what opinions are allowed, and what opinions are too vicious to allow. It is a classical trade-off, and the most controversial, unafraid opinions will often hurt the most. People will back off, to avoid being given the boot. That lowers the value of the discussion, in many cases.

 

[jetproppilot]

Two things.1) is introspection about the attitudes and needs you have yourself, to display knowledge, and make other people look bad. 2) is the measures SDN will take to minimize people being trashed. Measures as in 2) requires constant surveillance from a mod. I know this from other fora, it is quite easy to babysit bad language, but it is quite hard to draw the line between what opinions are allowed, and what opinions are too vicious to allow. It is a classical trade-off, and the most controversial, unafraid opinions will often hurt the most. People will back off, to avoid being given the boot. That lowers the value of the discussion, in many cases.

Thats very intuitive.

Thanks for contributing.

Hence my plight to keep the forum like it is.

I'm not for lowering the value of the discussion, even if it hurts a little.

 

[jetproppilot]

two Things.1) Is Introspection About The Attitudes And Needs You Have Yourself, To Display Knowledge, And Make Other People Look Bad. 2) Is The Measures Sdn Will Take To Minimize People Being Trashed. Measures As In 2) Requires Constant Surveillance From A Mod. I Know This From Other Fora, It Is Quite Easy To Babysit Bad Language, But It Is Quite Hard To Draw The Line Between What Opinions Are Allowed, And What Opinions Are Too Vicious To Allow. It Is A Classical Trade-off, and The Most Controversial, Unafraid Opinions Will Often Hurt The Most. people Will Back Off, To Avoid Being Given The Boot. That Lowers The Value Of The Discussion, In Many Cases.

wow.

 

[Southpaw]

I think you are reacting because you think that I am against your friend MMD and I think this is a very childish reaction.
Here, I can say it as it is as well.

I read this forum a long time before I started posting in it. I also got the impression you wanted everything roses and hand holding around here. You started a thread about questionable intimidation of med students. You recently edited one of MMD's posts where he insulted you, when it made absolutely no difference in the thread whatsoever.

And yet here, on a thread about discrimination and intolerance, you seem to be the intolerant one. You openly mock those with religious belief and you give your opinion as if its fact. In my opinion, it's the height of hypocrisy and seems very immature of a moderator. Just in this thread, and outside it in the real world, you can't ask for tolerance when you're the one being intolerant.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Really? They must be pretty simplistic answers.

I don't know if they're simplistic or not. But I know they make more sense to me than religious theory out there. I tend to think it's more simplistic to think that a god put you here and dictated your behavior. Instead, I'm forced to question things and come up with my own conclusions. Like I said, I wish I DID believe that tough decisions were already dictated for me, and I could just look in a book to tell me what to do.

Religion is comforting in SO MANY ways. Believe me when I say I don't CHOOSE not to believe in any religions. I just KNOW that they were built on hope, and not fact.

 

[jetproppilot]

I read this forum a long time before I started posting in it. I also got the impression you wanted everything roses and hand holding around here. You started a thread about questionable intimidation of med students. You recently edited one of MMD's posts where he insulted you, when it made absolutely no difference in the thread whatsoever.

And yet here, on a thread about discrimination and intolerance, you seem to be the intolerant one. You openly mock those with religious belief and you give your opinion as if its fact. In my opinion, it's the height of hypocrisy and seems very immature of a moderator. Just in this thread, and outside it in the real world, you can't ask for tolerance when you're the one being intolerant.

Thank you for your contribution.

Very insightful.

 

[jetproppilot]

.

 

[Planktonmd]

I read this forum a long time before I started posting in it. I also got the impression you wanted everything roses and hand holding around here. You started a thread about questionable intimidation of med students. You recently edited one of MMD's posts where he insulted you, when it made absolutely no difference in the thread whatsoever.

And yet here, on a thread about discrimination and intolerance, you seem to be the intolerant one. You openly mock those with religious belief and you give your opinion as if its fact. In my opinion, it's the height of hypocrisy and seems very immature of a moderator. Just in this thread, and outside it in the real world, you can't ask for tolerance when you're the one being intolerant.

If you have an argument relevant to the subject of this thread go ahead and state it (I don't think you do) otherwise I have zero interest in your evaluation of my character.
If someone does not agree with your religious views of the world that does not make them automatically the devil.
And please don't talk about tolerance when you are here asking for giving medical care on a religious affiliation basis.
Grow up.

 

[Planktonmd]

I don't know if they're simplistic or not. But I know they make more sense to me than religious theory out there. I tend to think it's more simplistic to think that a god put you here and dictated your behavior. Instead, I'm forced to question things and come up with my own conclusions. Like I said, I wish I DID believe that tough decisions were already dictated for me, and I could just look in a book to tell me what to do.

Religion is comforting in SO MANY ways. Believe me when I say I don't CHOOSE not to believe in any religions. I just KNOW that they were built on hope, and not fact.

Very soon there will be people on this thread accusing you of heresy and demanding for you to be burned in a public place, watch out.

 

[deleted9493]

I don't know if they're simplistic or not. But I know they make more sense to me than religious theory out there. I tend to think it's more simplistic to think that a god put you here and dictated your behavior. Instead, I'm forced to question things and come up with my own conclusions. Like I said, I wish I DID believe that tough decisions were already dictated for me, and I could just look in a book to tell me what to do.

Religion is comforting in SO MANY ways. Believe me when I say I don't CHOOSE not to believe in any religions. I just KNOW that they were built on hope, and not fact.

You may consider taking a look at the historical and archeological veracity of the matter before making broad sweeping generalizations. Men of much greater intelligence than you and I and well, likely anybody else floating about on forums like this have actually taken care to do so and come to different conclusions.

You have never 'KNOWN' yourself to be right about something, only to find out later that you have been drastically wrong? Really? Given the claims made by those who put their trust in God and the obvious answer to the aforementioned question, I'd give this much deeper consideration.

 

[Planktonmd]

UHHHHHHH........PLANK?[/size][/b]

Keep us real with your infinite wisdom.

I have already stated my opinion very clearly I think.

 

[Planktonmd]

Two things.1) is introspection about the attitudes and needs you have yourself, to display knowledge, and make other people look bad. 2) is the measures SDN will take to minimize people being trashed. Measures as in 2) requires constant surveillance from a mod. I know this from other fora, it is quite easy to babysit bad language, but it is quite hard to draw the line between what opinions are allowed, and what opinions are too vicious to allow. It is a classical trade-off, and the most controversial, unafraid opinions will often hurt the most. People will back off, to avoid being given the boot. That lowers the value of the discussion, in many cases.

Although it appears that other people understood your post and already started quoting it, I have to say that I don't really grasp what you are trying to say
Could you please help me out?

 

[Southpaw]

And please don't talk about tolerance when you are here asking for giving medical care on a religious affiliation basis.
Grow up.

That is complete misrepresentation of what I've said. My belief is that a physician should be able to decline doing an elective procedure on any grounds whatsoever (religious or non-religious). On an emergent basis, you save a life.

 

[deleted126335]

.

 

[bananaface]

Take a deep breath, Plank, and think about what follows:

I'D LIKE SDN ANESTHESIA TO BE THE SITE WHERE PEOPLE SAY WHAT THEY WANNA SAY, NOT WHATS "EXPECTED" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO SAY.

WHICH WAY YA WANT IT PLANK?

REAL or Memorex?

You're preaching one way yet begging another.

Thats, uhhhhh, hippocracy, Dude.

I vote to have JWK lay it on you.

I started a new thread for this discussion. If you aren't convinced that it needs to be had, think about this: You want SDN Anesthesia to be a place where people say what they want to say. Yet, when PlanktonMD says what he wants to, you berate him and essentially tell him to SFTU. Where is the open discussion you wanted now that you don't like the content? That is what users are complaining about. Come listen. We need to have an open discussion about what people do and don't like about the status-quo and find a way to make this forum work for our core audience.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=557869

 

[Pooh & Annie]

You may consider taking a look at the historical and archeological veracity of the matter before making broad sweeping generalizations. Men of much greater intelligence than you and I and well, likely anybody else floating about on forums like this have actually taken care to do so and come to different conclusions.

You have never 'KNOWN' yourself to be right about something, only to find out later that you have been drastically wrong? Really? Given the claims made by those who put their trust in God and the obvious answer to the aforementioned question, I'd give this much deeper consideration.

I try not to make generalizations about this subject, and I'm not sure where I did. I definitely don't intend to.

I don't fault ANYONE for their beliefs. (And remember that there are also LOTS of people smarter than you and I who DO NOT believe in religious theory).

And yes I've been wrong about many things, but BELIEVE ME I'm as sure about my conclusions as anyone else is with theirs. This is one of those cases where people just have to agree to disagree. The problems just become obvious when it comes to public policy, and what kinds of things people teach our kids.

 

[militarymd]

I started a new thread for this discussion. If you aren't convinced that it needs to be had, think about this: You want SDN Anesthesia to be a place where people say what they want to say. Yet, when PlanktonMD says what he wants to, you berate him and essentially tell him to SFTU. Where is the open discussion you wanted now that you don't like the content? That is what users are complaining about. Come listen. We need to have an open discussion about what people do and don't like about the status-quo and find a way to make this forum work for our core audience.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=557869

Yes, we berate each other....we also insult each other, but we're adults, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Of all the places in the world, this is the one place where I think this kind of behavior should be tolerated. We get censored enough everywhere else.

Jet didn't tell Plank to shut up....he just told Plank that he is wrong, and in a polite manner too...mine you....I wouldn't have been so courteous.

Plank, on the other hand, IS trying to CENSOR people.

He used his moderater powers to edit posts.

He started a thread to try to change moderator style....essentially asking in a backhanded way to CENSOR folks.

I had hoped that he would have been mature enough to not accept moderater powers, but it's obvious that he is a power hungry megalomaniac who wants to shape this forum into what he wants.

 

[Planktonmd]

Yes, we berate each other....we also insult each other, but we're adults, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Of all the places in the world, this is the one place where I think this kind of behavior should be tolerated. We get censored enough everywhere else.

Jet didn't tell Plank to shut up....he just told Plank that he is wrong, and in a polite manner too...mine you....I wouldn't have been so courteous.

Plank, on the other hand, IS trying to CENSOR people.

He used his moderater powers to edit posts.

He started a thread to try to change moderator style....essentially asking in a backhanded way to CENSOR folks.

I had hoped that he would have been mature enough to not accept moderater powers, but it's obvious that he is a power hungry megalomaniac who wants to shape this forum into what he wants.

I am not going to even address your silly points.
But one question: Did jet hire you to be his attorney?
Is this the Jet/ MMD personal forum??

 

[jetproppilot]

I started a new thread for this discussion. If you aren't convinced that it needs to be had, think about this: You want SDN Anesthesia to be a place where people say what they want to say. Yet, when PlanktonMD says what he wants to, you berate him and essentially tell him to SFTU. Where is the open discussion you wanted now that you don't like the content? That is what users are complaining about. Come listen. We need to have an open discussion about what people do and don't like about the status-quo and find a way to make this forum work for our core audience.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=557869

My point was that it seems Plank seems to be the point dude pushing for change...i.e. a more "bowtie" type of environment where everyone gets a hug when they walk in.....

and yet when JWK bowed out of answering a question that wouldda probably hurt a little, Plank asked for JWK to answer the question, which is against the philosophy that youre essentially looking for, which is to change this forum.

I'd appreciate it if you didnt manipulate my intentions to fit your agenda.

 

[deleted9493]

I don't know if they're simplistic or not. But I know they make more sense to me than religious theory out there. I tend to think it's more simplistic to think that a god put you here and dictated your behavior. Instead, I'm forced to question things and come up with my own conclusions. Like I said, I wish I DID believe that tough decisions were already dictated for me, and I could just look in a book to tell me what to do.

Religion is comforting in SO MANY ways. Believe me when I say I don't CHOOSE not to believe in any religions. I just KNOW that they were built on hope, and not fact.

I was just referring to you having said that you know that religions (implicitly, all religions?) were built on hope and not on fact. That was the generalization I had in mind.

My tone really was intended to be imploring, rather than argumentative.