No IIs since September... what should I be doing right now?

[stiffintensification]

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I am super grateful for my two II's that I got in August and September but they turned into a WL and R. Both were T30s so I assumed there were no red flags in my application, but I've been hit with 9 back to back R's over the past 2 months and have not gotten an II since September. I know the cycle is not over and I have about 20 schools left, but they're all very competitive/low yield so I'm really losing hope.


I've gotten into the mindset of being ready to prepare for a reapp but I truly do not know where to even start. How do I know what I need to improve to do better next cycle if I don't get any more IIs and I don't get off my one WL (which movement historically starts in May so I need to be ready)???

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Hard to say, but you probably didn't have red flags with two interviews. The problem is likely more about mission fit. Having a post-interview rejection is a little concerning though I don't know if the school uses rejections that way to those who don't show mission fit or whatnot.

Number of hours is not going to help us; clearly a few schools think you have enough hours. We cannot evaluate your descriptions or secondary essays, but the details likely matter.

 

[wysdoc]

I am super grateful for my two II's that I got in August and September but they turned into a WL and R. Both were T30s so I assumed there were no red flags in my application, but I've been hit with 9 back to back R's over the past 2 months and have not gotten an II since September. I know the cycle is not over and I have about 20 schools left, but they're all very competitive/low yield so I'm really losing hope.


I've gotten into the mindset of being ready to prepare for a reapp but I truly do not know where to even start. How do I know what I need to improve to do better next cycle if I don't get any more IIs and I don't get off my one WL (which movement historically starts in May so I need to be ready)???


Here's a WAMC for context:

1. 3.97 cGPA, 3.94 sGPA
2. 514 (127, 130, 129, 128) second try, 510 (129, 127, 127, 127) first try
3. WWAMI state, ORM
4. T30 private undergrad
5. 700 hours clinical as ED scribe, 300 hours hospital bedside volunteer
6. 700 hours clinical research with one first author poster presentation at international conference and currently working on pub during my gap year, 300 hours wet lab molecular bio research
7. 90 hours shadowing across 6 specialties
8. 500 hours non-clinical volunteering through my student orgs
9. 600+ hours as derm MA currently during my one gap year (this was not included in my primary), had a clinical research coordinator job lined up that was included in my primary as a future activity but it fell through and just working as a "research associate" instead, 700 hours private STEM tutor, 4 leadership positions in student orgs
10. Basic awards/scholarships affiliated with my undergrad, nothing crazy there
11. Had my PS reviewed/revised by pre health committee and trusted physician mentor, LORs were very strong according to my writers, and no one looked at my secondaries except for parents who checked for grammar/flow.

Any advice/thoughts is greatly appreciated.

Please post your school list and where your interviews were. You might have had a very top heavy list aiming for competitive schools, or schools that seemed good but you didn’t realize are more friendly to applicants from their immediate geographical area

 

[Goro]

For starters, start working on interview skills.

 

[wysdoc]

I edited the post to include my school list. In hindsight, I can see that most of my schools are competitive or low yield. However, I used admit.org to build my school list, the fact that I have 0 ties to the east coast, and my personal preference of urban>rural environments. My app had a narrative centered on serving underrepresented and underserved populations, and in my secondaries I always tied in personal stories of me working with these communities while showing empathy and cultural humility.

Let me know what you think. Is my cycle going this way really because of my school list? What schools should I have/have not applied to then? Is there something else that's problematic in my app I'm missing? I have no idea what I need to be doing right now in case I don't receive any more IIs. Thank you so much!

The trouble with using the site you used for your list is it usually gives a list that is too top heavy and does not take into account your state of residence.
For example a WWAMI resident has no chance at UCI or SUNY downstate, and your MCAT was not in an admissible range for schools like Michigan, Case Western, Emory, Brown, and others.
There’s nothing to do now but wait out the next few months and see if you get more interviews or get in from your WL.
Human judgement and experience is important in creating a school list and if you reapply, trust human advisors

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I edited the post to include my school list. In hindsight, I can see that most of my schools are competitive or low yield. However, I used admit.org to build my school list, the fact that I have 0 ties to the east coast, and my personal preference of urban>rural environments. My app had a narrative centered on serving underrepresented and underserved populations, and in my secondaries I always tied in personal stories of me working with these communities while showing empathy and cultural humility.

Let me know what you think. Is my cycle going this way really because of my school list? What schools should I have/have not applied to then? Is there something else that's problematic in my app I'm missing? I have no idea what I need to be doing right now in case I don't receive any more IIs. Thank you so much!

I don't see how your activities align with this statement. So many more applicants say this that it sounds cliche without the proof. How have you shown with the way you live and work with your community that your narrative is true? What is your impact from these personal stories??? In other words, why should we readers care?

I am guessing there's a reason you didn't apply to Washington State (more interested in rural than urban). In what urban areas have you worked? Seattle? Spokane? Where else?

 

[wysdoc]

Got it. I kept my activities vague to not identify myself, but the premise of my non clinical volunteering, leadership positions in my student orgs, and personal upbringing (which I mentioned in all of my secondaries) align with that statement.

I grew up in Southern California (and have significant ties to California in general) and then went to middle/high school in one of the WWAMI states, not Washington State (again, trying not to doxx myself as much as possible) hence why I applied to UCI and did not apply to WSU.

Having childhood ties to California does not make you a CA resident any longer, since you moved away so many years ago. UCI does not accept OOS

 

[Goro]

Currently doing that as I struggle with talking about myself. But, in case I don't even get the opportunity to interview again, what else do you recommend I start doing based on my app so far? Thank you!

Service to others less fortunate than yourself.

Also, develop a more strategic list that fits directly with a school's mission. You had way too many donations on your list.

Have some DO schools next time as well.

 

[doctorendgame]

I edited the post to include my school list. In hindsight, I can see that most of my schools are competitive or low yield. However, I used admit.org to build my school list, the fact that I have 0 ties to the east coast, and my personal preference of urban>rural environments. My app had a narrative centered on serving underrepresented and underserved populations, and in my secondaries I always tied in personal stories of me working with these communities while showing empathy and cultural humility.

If I may be a bit blunt, that narrative is oversaturated. It's a dime a dozen. Anyone can volunteer with underserved communities and say they want to serve that community as a physician. If you identified a cause to their issue and were working to mend it, then you'd have something that makes you stand out. I know people say don't focus on standing out but the truth is in the middle. If you've truly done the work, you'll stand out by being your authentic self and this is something a very small minority of applicants can achieve.

As for the empathy and cultural humility, that sounds like a sales pitch. Doctor Gray always advises trying to sound like a sales pitch and tbh, I agree with him.

 

[stiffintensification]

Having childhood ties to California does not make you a CA resident any longer, since you moved away so many years ago. UCI does not accept OOS

Respectfully disagree with the UCI statement as their website clearly states that they evaluate all applicants equally regardless of state residence + history of OOS II and A's reported, including this year.

But this is also my thing with my school list: how do I know which "lower tier" schools are good to apply to if I don't have any geographical ties to the school? I never understood the "find the schools that you have a mission fit for" because unless they explicitly say what their mission is i.e. research for Stanford/UCSF, service for Rosalind Franklin/Creighton, it feels like all medical schools have similar missions to raise the next generation of physician leaders.

 

[Med Ed]

Respectfully disagree with the UCI statement as their website clearly states that they evaluate all applicants equally regardless of state residence + history of OOS II and A's reported, including this year.

UCI's website also states that California residents make up 88% (100/114) of the most recent class. Applying there as an OOS resident is therefore not strategic.

But this is also my thing with my school list: how do I know which "lower tier" schools are good to apply to if I don't have any geographical ties to the school? I never understood the "find the schools that you have a mission fit for" because unless they explicitly say what their mission is i.e. research for Stanford/UCSF, service for Rosalind Franklin/Creighton, it feels like all medical schools have similar missions to raise the next generation of physician leaders.

It is true that a lot of missions statements are interchangeable, and it's difficult to discern substantive differences between them. But not always. Consider the four schools you noted.

Stanford: one of the most highly regarded schools in the country, in league with Harvard, Yale, and Hopkins. Could fill half its class with left-handed Olympians.
UCSF: similar to Stanford in terms of stature, but has a long history of prioritizing social justice.
Rosalind Franklin: one of the private lower-tier medical schools that each receive 10,000+ applications per year. Half the class is from the midwest. Average metrics are below the national means.
Creighton: Jesuit, so yes, service-oriented, highlights in its class profile the geographic a cultural diversity of its class. Average metrics are above the national means.

The problem with being WWAMI with a decent app is that everyone assumes you will go to UW.

 

[polymerization]

I think one way to overcome your narrative issues is to narrow the claim you're trying to make, which is really broad right now.

You "pay" for claims you make in your application in the experiences you add to Work & Activities.

The claim (that you are interested in serving the underserved, sort of indiscriminately) is both too expensive to make for most people short of being Mother Teresa, and usually an incomplete statement. Schools want to know why you need an MD to serve the underserved, since you're already doing that, and also how you plan to once you have one.

For example, over ~10 years, I worked a lot in AI. I took courses and learned Python to write my own models in college, published with NASA on an AI research team, assisted other professors on their own projects with my literacy in the subject and could solve simple problems for them. When LLMs blew up, I was kind of shocked at how quickly it was being adopted everywhere, in everything.

I could make a claim using AI, but not a super expensive one, like "AI is going to save medicine and we can replace medical school with ChatGPT soon."

Instead, I claimed AI could be a (relatively) inexpensive way to democratize information if pursued ethically.

I had seen patients come in for years with really interesting and creative explanations for their conditions, which did not at all align with even basic medical knowledge. There were a lot of patients who were homeless who we had ordered to seek mental services but obviously could not. They did have semi-reliable access to a smartphone, though.

These were just narrow experiences where I could reasonably state that a robust AI could be part of an acute response to what is a glaring gap in care today. Something is better than nothing, and of course there are limitations, but this would be a drop in the bucket in cost and could really help those seeking better health guidance in a non-confrontational and relatively private way.

Given that I had worked in policy and integrated AI into my policy work before, I also claimed I wanted to continue finding ethical ways to democratize information using AI across other marginalized populations in medicine. I felt I could pay for that claim with the experiences I had in AI, as frontline clinical staff, and as a policymaker.

I ended up being accepted at the school where AI was invented, famous for its health policy work, and who developed the first AI psychotherapy model robust enough to maybe actually make it to market. I was able to successfully convey that I desperately wanted to do something they could easily offer me as a student.

I "fit," but only because I chose to write about this part of my application. I could have easily waxed poetic about something else and would not have been interviewed at all.

You have to find a way to align your claims with your schools' values. Obviously you won't "fit" with all of them, so be strategic. You can only reasonably make certain kinds of claims, so this requires more brainpower than I initially thought when I was first getting started with writing secondaries.

I think if I would have looked at it this way, I would have been more successful in culling a more manageable list and have had better writing and interview experiences, too.

I felt that because I applied to so many schools with very different missions, I had to align claims with school values that were too expensive, and talking about them on interviews meant that I had to memorize too many claims I had made and vignettes that supported them.

Narrowing your list and being more discriminatory about your claims, I think, is one way to think about more closely approximating what schools functionally mean by mission fit. I hope that makes sense.

 

[PickaGodnPray]

If you’re going to say you want to serve underserved groups, there needs to be some kind of impact you’ve had to understand how our current systems impact these populations as well as doing something to relieve it. Now I’m not saying applicants need to solve poverty, but it needs to be deeper than just setting up sleeping mats at a shelter or checking people into a free community clinic. Otherwise, like others have said, your application becomes generic like everyone else’s.
Schools are also realizing people are just saying this now to get in, which has led to our current physician population realizing there are systemic health failures impacting patients disproportionately, but don’t have the tools or desire to help them (see data on wait times for Medicaid vs private insurance).
You may have had those experiences so this may all be moot, but just something to consider. Also, run your interview answers by your advisor or others with the experience you can trust. There are times when you may have a weird response they didn’t like and not know it. Everyone will tell you to work on interviews, but sometimes you can interview a 10/10 and still get waitlisted or rejected (speaking from experience). If it doesn’t work out this cycle, reach out for feedback from the schools you interviewed at and see if they have advice. Some give it, some don’t, but always worth a shot.

 

[geopigeon]

I have no acceptance of my own (hopefully soon) but I will say the school that gave me a shot prides itself in a city that is undergoing a renaissance, tying medicine and the people together, and addressing the shortages medicine experiences that its population is very familiar with. It also just so happens that I have a story of a terrible freshmen year of college that I recuperated from in a Herculean effort, experience working in pediatric clinics in behavioral health in areas experiencing psychiatric shortages, and writing that emphasizes the human in a physician. PickaGod explained pretty well months ago when I got rejected from my presumed “top school,” the best one is the one that clicks with your story.

 

[moltmannfanboi]

The problem with being WWAMI with a decent app is that everyone assumes you will go to UW.

They wouldn’t even be wrong 9 times out of 10 (assuming that person also got into UW, which is a HUGE assumption)