No interviews, how should I prepare for next cycle if I have to?

[TheMagnificentToaster]

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Hey everyone, I applied to 13 US schools and 6 Canadian schools this cycle (list at the bottom) and have so far received 4 rejections and 0 interviews. I know its not time to worry yet, but I like to plan for the worst case and start improving my app for next cycle.

I definitely think my personal statement & secondaries might be lacking since I'm not the best writer but I tried to compensate by starting them early. I went through four reviews with multiple people (family/peers/teachers) before submitting. What else could I do next cycle to improve them? Also, I submitted 9 of my secondaries in July and the rest in August.

I've also only completed the bare minimum prerequisites courses for school (orgo, gen.chem, intro bio, etc.). Would this negatively impact my app?

Lastly, money was a big problem for me during this cycle so I was unable to apply to more schools (I only applied to Harvard/Stanford/NYU because a family member really wanted me to apply there and paid for the fees) but I've been saving some money for next cycle.

1. cGPA: 3.92, sGPA: 3.96
2. MCAT: 519 (130/128/131/130), Casper: 2nd quartile
3. Michigan (American & Canadian dual citizen)
4. ORM
5. Umich
6. Clinical experience: ~350 hours
   1. Dental Office ~200 hours done sporadically over 3 years. Whenever I had time and was in the neighbourhood, I'd volunteer there.
   2. Local clinic ~80 hours over 4 months. Ended this recently due to work conflicts
   3. Hospice work ~ 70 hours over 5 months, ended due to COVID.
7. Research experience: ~700 hours
   1. Co-author of a published paper in a mechanical engineering journal. Research started as a side project with some friends. ~400 hours over 1 year.
   2. Research under a professor. ~300 hours over a year. No pub/presentation.
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented
   1. Family medicine: 40 hours
9. Non-clinical volunteering
   1. Tutoring/IA: ~400 hours over four-ish years. This was through multiple different activities.
10. Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc)
    1. Worked as a mechanical engineering intern over two summers during undergrad.
    2. Completed my undergrad a year ago and have been working in the automotive industry while completing a few missing bio prerequisites since.
    3. Dual majored in Mechanical Engineering & Electrical Engineering
11. Relevant honors or awards
    1. Nothing really besides some academic awards

Schools applied to:

• Umich
• Central Mich.
• Western Mich.
• Wayne State
• Michigan State - Rejected
• Oakland
• Northwestern
• U. of Chicago - Rejected
• Carle Illinois
• Case Western - Rejected
• Harvard
• Stanford - Rejected
• NYU

• McMaster
• Ottawa
• Toronto
• McGill
• Western
• Queens

Thanks for reading and I appreciate any help!

 

[MyOdyssey]

Some suggestions:

1. Engage in more face to face non clinical volunteering or work that helps underserved communities. If you don't receive an acceptance and have to take a gap year, you might want to look into Americorp or Teach for America. Adcoms tend to discount tutoring (especially if it involves on campus tutoring) because it doesn't require you to step outside your comfort zone and because so many premeds do it. Schools like U Chicago expect to see a lot of social activism on your application

2. Get several hundred more hours of face to face clinical experience.

3. Your research hours aren't enough to impress the research powerhouses like Harvard/Stanford/U Mich.

4. You need to expand your school list. Perhaps you can apply for FAP to help defray the cost. Some schools you might consider adding: Cincinnati, St. Louis, Hofstra, Tulane, Rochester, Tufts, Boston U, Mt. Sinai, Einstein, Cornell, Medical College of Wisconsin.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I agree with my colleague... you need more than just tutoring. Also, the dental office hours are great, but you need as many or more hours (than 200) observing physicians. Shadowing is okay, but you need to decide to commit to a more immersive experience.

You also mentioned doing just the "bare minimum" coursework. This doesn't really help you as much if you came from an engineering background (except perhaps for Carle Illinois). Compared against the majority of applicants who have more upper-level biomedical science coursework, it might have put your at a disadvantage, though I think the lack of actual experience face-to-face with people in need in both clinical and non-clinical settings is probably more of a concern.

The Canadian schools may be gun-shy about interviewing you since they know you also have US ties. I don't know whether they will resource-protect and not extend you an invitation to interview as a result of you not being in the US for your college education or for having US as well as Canadian citizenship.

 

[turtleduck]

I agree with my colleague... you need more than just tutoring. Also, the dental office hours are great, but you need as many or more hours (than 200) observing physicians. Shadowing is okay, but you need to decide to commit to a more immersive experience.

You also mentioned doing just the "bare minimum" coursework. This doesn't really help you as much if you came from an engineering background (except perhaps for Carle Illinois). Compared against the majority of applicants who have more upper-level biomedical science coursework, it might have put your at a disadvantage, though I think the lack of actual experience face-to-face with people in need in both clinical and non-clinical settings is probably more of a concern.

The Canadian schools may be gun-shy about interviewing you since they know you also have US ties. I don't know whether they will resource-protect and not extend you an invitation to interview as a result of you not being in the US for your college education or for having US as well as Canadian citizenship.

Hi Mr. Smile, if I may ask for your advice, what do you think if the bulk of my non-clinical volunteering is teaching related but is targeted toward specific communities?

I have been volunteering as a mentor/tutor for underserved students at Title 1 schools for about 2 years with ~200 hours.

I am also a conversation partner at the international center of my school, where I help ESL students, graduates, and visiting scholars with conversational English skills, helping with things like transforming a written work into a presentation, stage presence, and the use of vocal emphasis. I've been doing this for about 1 year with ~70 hours.

I enjoy both of these, but do you think it makes my non-clinical volunteering not broad enough?

 

[TheMagnificentToaster]

Thanks for the advice!

Looks like I need to get more volunteering exposure. I've already been looking for more clinical volunteering but its been difficult to find a flexible volunteering opportunity because work requires me to travel for a few weeks at a time. Currently looking at local hospices that might let me work weekends.

I'm a little disappointed that teaching is not valued that highly by adcoms. They were some of my most meaningful experiences and my personal statement was heavily centered around them. But I did forget to mention that I included ~100 hours of non-clinical volunteering in the community (food drives, assisting elderly, etc.) in my app. This was mostly small events or activities and there was no overarching organization.

3. Your research hours aren't enough to impress the research powerhouses like Harvard/Stanford/U Mich.

Aww that's disappointing, Umich was my top choice 🙁
How many hours would be considered competitive? Looked through Umich's website and MSAR but couldn't find an average number. Considering going back to school part-time and maybe I can find some research opportunity that interests me.

4. You need to expand your school list. Perhaps you can apply for FAP to help defray the cost. Some schools you might consider adding: Cincinnati, St. Louis, Hofstra, Tulane, Rochester, Tufts, Boston U, Mt. Sinai, Einstein, Cornell, Medical College of Wisconsin.

Tried for FAP this cycle but didnt get it. I should be okay for next cycle though!

The Canadian schools may be gun-shy about interviewing you since they know you also have US ties. I don't know whether they will resource-protect and not extend you an invitation to interview as a result of you not being in the US for your college education or for having US as well as Canadian citizenship.

I think most schools treat me as an in-province or Canadian applicant because I completed high school in Ontario.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Hi Mr. Smile, if I may ask for your advice, what do you think if the bulk of my non-clinical volunteering is teaching related but is targeted toward specific communities?

I have been volunteering as a mentor/tutor for underserved students at Title 1 schools for about 2 years with ~200 hours.

I am also a conversation partner at the international center of my school, where I help ESL students, graduates, and visiting scholars with conversational English skills, helping with things like transforming a written work into a presentation, stage presence, and the use of vocal emphasis. I've been doing this for about 1 year with ~70 hours.

I enjoy both of these, but do you think it makes my non-clinical volunteering not broad enough?

I'm also responding to your follow-up post.

Could you be more specific in what you were teaching to those students in the Title 1 school? Did it involve lesson plans and parent-teacher interactions? If you were employed or were involved in City Year/TFA, that would be a little more meaningful. But 200 hours over 2 years is not that much of a commitment. Sorry, but that's what I've observed, and premeds who tutor any students are about a nickel per dozen.

The issue is not breadth as much as it is commitment and depth. Is this enough to show faculty that you understand what a true commitment to a life in service is all about? 70 hours over 1 year is not a lot of commitment, even if the work you do is important. Research of 700 hours over 2 years is fine, but there are others in the applicant pool who have at least 1000 per year of experience. I have advised students who did a full gap year working in a research lab (2000 hours over 1 year). That said, there's no guarantee that gets you in either.

Yes, you should have mentioned the other 100 hours of miscellaneous community service (food bank, assisting elderly, etc.), though it does not change the advice I have given regarding depth of commitment to others. If I could make a suggestion, go all-in with the food bank/delivery (like Meals on Wheels) and stick with it.

Finally, have you actually asked admissions staff how they classified you since you are a dual-citizen? Does going to a Canadian high school or a US college matter (one outweighing the other)? I know Canadian admissions officers are probably not the most customer-friendly in the business.

I would suggest that you also take advantage of the SDN/HPSA reader volunteers when they begin offering their help. It's not a bad idea that you sought help from people you know, but it really helps you to get feedback from 1) your references and 2) people who don't know you at all. After all, no one/very few in the admissions process will know you personally prior to reviewing your application so it's their opinions you should seek.

 

[TheMagnificentToaster]

Finally, have you actually asked admissions staff how they classified you since you are a dual-citizen? Does going to a Canadian high school or a US college matter (one outweighing the other)? I know Canadian admissions officers are probably not the most customer-friendly in the business.

Yep, confirmed with all my schools except McGill (which thoroughly outlined what they consider Canadian/international applicants on their website) and Toronto (they never responded). I`m treated as an Ontario citizen and the location of my university will not factor into their review.

 

[greyttime]

It might be challenging with your major history but I would also recommend finding a job that might provide you with clinical exposure, physician shadowing, or research hours. There are 40 hours every week that you spend in a field drastically different from medicine, which is what you are saying you want to go into. I think that spending that time on something more closely related and relevant to medicine will really help your application/narrative. Would also recommend adding more MD schools to your list. You have a good GPA and MCAT, but your work experiences don't really line up with your desire to go into medicine.

 

[TheMagnificentToaster]

It might be challenging with your major history but I would also recommend finding a job that might provide you with clinical exposure, physician shadowing, or research hours. There are 40 hours every week that you spend in a field drastically different from medicine, which is what you are saying you want to go into. I think that spending that time on something more closely related and relevant to medicine will really help your application/narrative. Would also recommend adding more MD schools to your list. You have a good GPA and MCAT, but your work experiences don't really line up with your desire to go into medicine.

Appreciate your advice... its something I've been considering for a while since its so difficult to find clinical opportunities around my work. Issue is most clinical/research work pays nowhere near as much as my job and I need money right now.
After I manage to pay off my loans and stuff (which hopefully should be within the next year!), I'll probably do it.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Thanks for the advice!

Looks like I need to get more volunteering exposure. I've already been looking for more clinical volunteering but its been difficult to find a flexible volunteering opportunity because work requires me to travel for a few weeks at a time. Currently looking at local hospices that might let me work weekends.

I'm a little disappointed that teaching is not valued that highly by adcoms. They were some of my most meaningful experiences and my personal statement was heavily centered around them. But I did forget to mention that I included ~100 hours of non-clinical volunteering in the community (food drives, assisting elderly, etc.) in my app. This was mostly small events or activities and there was no overarching organization.


Aww that's disappointing, Umich was my top choice 🙁
How many hours would be considered competitive? Looked through Umich's website and MSAR but couldn't find an average number. Considering going back to school part-time and maybe I can find some research opportunity that interests me.


Tried for FAP this cycle but didnt get it. I should be okay for next cycle though!


I think most schools treat me as an in-province or Canadian applicant because I completed high school in Ontario.

U Mich heavily favors its own undergrads and favors Michigan residents. Your GPA is impressive considering your major especially and Michigan's reputation for academic excellence. You might still have a shot there and at the other MI state schools.

Regarding research, biology/chemistry/physics premeds at my T20 undergrad typically did a senior research project that lasted one school year at least. Often students began those projects as first or second semester juniors and continued those into the summer between junior and senior year. I'd estimate those hours at 1000-2000 hours. The project would culminate in a paper and oral defense. It was unusual for such research to lead to a publication, however. That should give you a sense of how much research the research powerhouse medical schools like to see.

 

[MyOdyssey]

<<I would suggest that you also take advantage of the SDN/HPSA reader volunteers when they begin offering their help. >>

SDN plans to offer this service?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I have always seen forums where volunteers will read and critique PS over the years

 

[candbgirl]

<<I would suggest that you also take advantage of the SDN/HPSA reader volunteers when they begin offering their help. >>

SDN plans to offer this service?

Always has.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Always has.

Is there a subforum for this?

 

[candbgirl]

Is there a subforum for this

I’m not sure. But early on in the cycle there are usually several threads where people volunteer to read/edit PS and essays. I’ve never looked into it but they are usually right here in PreMed. I just did a search in this forum “readers for applications” and lots of threads came up. Not sure what they entail or if I even searched the correct wording.

 

[turtleduck]

I'm also responding to your follow-up post.

Could you be more specific in what you were teaching to those students in the Title 1 school? Did it involve lesson plans and parent-teacher interactions? If you were employed or were involved in City Year/TFA, that would be a little more meaningful. But 200 hours over 2 years is not that much of a commitment. Sorry, but that's what I've observed, and premeds who tutor any students are about a nickel per dozen.

Sorry for the late reply, but yes for the tutoring at Title 1 schools I work directly with the teachers to devise lesson plans and I work directly with the students. I also implemented a STEM curriculum to promote interactive, hands on science & experiments. However, I am not really involved in parent-teacher interactions. The program itself is centered on educational social justice though.