Hi everyone, I made a post here a while back about applying to residency. I ended up applying to both Internal Medicine and Pathology programs, over 120 programs in total. It's Nov 12 today and I haven't gotten any interviews yet, just about 20-30 rejections. I'm wondering if it's hopeless at this point, or I still have a chance to get more interviews. One of my attendings suggested pulling out of the match, graduating, and applying next year instead. I just wanted to get your input.
No interviews yet, what to do...
- Thread starter tpn89
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if you pull out, I would put off graduation or else you'd be considered an independent applicant when you reapply. you could pull out, take a leave of absense, and look aggressively for research programs
No, I go to school in the US (MD). I don't have great scores and I also applied about a month late... That probably screwed me over, but wondering how to go from here.120 programs and no interviews? Did you go Caribbean?
Does it really matter at this point if I'm an independent applicant or not?
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I'd recommend speaking to an advisor or your dean of students and figure out how realistic it would be to expect to get a position in the SOAP.
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You gotta give us the whole story.
You applied a month late, as in October 15th?
That shouldn't preclude you from completely n ot getting interviews. Are you applying to community programs?
What are your general stats like?
You applied a month late, as in October 15th?
That shouldn't preclude you from completely n ot getting interviews. Are you applying to community programs?
What are your general stats like?
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Something seems awry...
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In another thread, he mentioned he's a U.S. MD in the NE who failed step 1, and barely passed the 2nd time, barely passed ALL shelf exams, and has performed very poorly on rotations. I imagine it would be hard to get good letters under those conditions. And no passing step 2 score yet?? All this in addition to applying at least a month late, it would be more of a shock if he were to get any interviews.
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Not really. It mostly depends on which students you get paired up with during rotations. Be wary of people going into Ophtho/Derm/Ortho/[anything else super competitive]. they will be most likely to gun it up even when there's no reason to. Additionally, watch out for people who publicly say "I dont know what I wanna do yet, but im thinking medicine" and you know for a fact they've done a **** ton of research with some ortho doc and are president of the ortho club.
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Internal medicine and pathology are some of the least competitive residencies, and you as an US MD couldn't even get one interview? Even with the late app and step failures, there has to be something else.
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But OP applies to pathology...
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No, there doesn't. Third-year performance is gold. If the OP didn't perform well, coupled with applying late, this is exactly what most who've been through the match would expect. Don't assume that just because someone has a pulse and is a US MD, they will be in demand, especially if they've had a lackluster third year.
OP, what are the drawbacks to staying in the match just to see what's available in the scramble? You don't have to apply to programs in the scramble, but you can at least take a look and see if any good programs slipped through without being filled for whatever reason.
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Um, yes, it does. Hence why he's telling you to delay graduation.
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Seriously, just stop. Either look up what the word gunner means, or don't bother using it.
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it's almost as if you've went through medical school and matched successfully already
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tpn89 u better update this thread with your stats and progress or else neg train gonna hit u nom sayin
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Welcome back, Ark?
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Is he going HAM on something?
My Stats-
US MD student at mid-tier school on the east coast
Grades: all P's in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year. Mostly generic evals in 3rd year. HPs on 4th year sub-i's so far.
Boards: passed step 1 (barely) on second attempt; took step 2CS and CK, waiting for results.
I applied to about 120 programs in total including 90 internal medicine programs, mostly community programs, and about 30 pathology programs. I still haven't gotten any interviews, but am getting daily rejections, about 30+ so far. I haven't even gotten an interview from my home school, which is pretty disappointing.
I've received conflicting advice from my advisor, dean, and other attending. One says to stay in the match and if I don't get any interviews, to scramble into a preliminary spot if I can. Another says to pull out of the match and extend my 4th year, doing more clinical rotations and applying again next year. Another says to finish requirements for graduation, and graduate, then do research and apply again. Another says to add family med programs right now. Yet another says it makes no difference what I do, I'm just not going to ever find a residency spot.
As you can imagine, I'm very confused about what to do right now with so many people telling me so many different things.
US MD student at mid-tier school on the east coast
Grades: all P's in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year. Mostly generic evals in 3rd year. HPs on 4th year sub-i's so far.
Boards: passed step 1 (barely) on second attempt; took step 2CS and CK, waiting for results.
I applied to about 120 programs in total including 90 internal medicine programs, mostly community programs, and about 30 pathology programs. I still haven't gotten any interviews, but am getting daily rejections, about 30+ so far. I haven't even gotten an interview from my home school, which is pretty disappointing.
I've received conflicting advice from my advisor, dean, and other attending. One says to stay in the match and if I don't get any interviews, to scramble into a preliminary spot if I can. Another says to pull out of the match and extend my 4th year, doing more clinical rotations and applying again next year. Another says to finish requirements for graduation, and graduate, then do research and apply again. Another says to add family med programs right now. Yet another says it makes no difference what I do, I'm just not going to ever find a residency spot.
As you can imagine, I'm very confused about what to do right now with so many people telling me so many different things.
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If I were you, I would add FM programs right now, if FM is amenable to you. At this point, you probably still won't get any FM interviews, but it doesn't hurt to try a few rural community FM programs.
When do you find out if you passed CK and CS? I think that is the biggest thing programs will want to know before extending an interview. Right now, you are a huge risk to programs of not being able to enter residency on time if they match you or you not completing residency successfully if they do match you. Those fears can be partially alleviated with passing step 2 scores.
I would not listen to the advice to drop out of the match or delay graduation. If you cannot match, I would scramble into any position you can get, trying for a categorical spot first (by then you will hopefully have passing step 2 scores and will be on more "equal" footing since your having applied so late will no longer factor in).
If you cannot get a categorical spot, try to get a prelim medicine spot, and if that fails take a prelim surgery spot. The worst thing to happen is to not have a spot. The thing is, as long as you get a PGY1 spot and are successfully completing it, you will reduce your risk significantly in the eyes of potential programs. You can then apply in the match again next year for R* (physician) PGY2 spots to start that very same year and not skip a beat. Most specialties keep R* positions available only to physician candidates who will have completed PGY1, and many of these spots do not even fill, plus you will not be competing against US seniors next year this way.
You could probably snatch a pathology, radiology, anesthesiology, or IM spot if you want.
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Thanks for the advice. I can add FM programs. Do I need new recommendations from FM docs or can I just ask the ones I have to make an edit and upload again? Honestly even that will take a week because they're really slow.
My CS and CK score should be (hopefully) back by the end of December.
I just don't understand why after applying to so many programs, I can't even get one interview. It's like I have "serial killer" written on my application or something.
I'm just really depressed and feeling like a huge failure at life.
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I guarantee you on Surgery, the ones who are going for Surgery will "gun it up" or the ones who know from the start they want to go into OB-Gyn will "gun it up", same for IM. It's not just the people who are going for Ophtho/Derm/Ortho/etc.
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Totally agree. But I think the Derm/Ophtho etc. crowd will gun it up on rotations irrelevant to their interest. Like its end of 3rd year and they're still going H.A.M on Psych.
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Although I don't see the relevance of whether it's the beginning of the year or end of the year -- Psych is one of the easiest rotations to get Honors in. Everyone in our class tried to get Honors in that.
Most MS-3 clerkships at most medical schools are: IM, Surgery, Peds, OB-Gyn, Psych, Neurology, and Family Medicine. None of those fit in the interest of those going for Derm, Ophtho, Rads, Anesthesia, Rad Onc, PM&R, Path, ENT, Urology, etc. It's quite foolhardy to say oh, I'm going for a non-MS-3 specialty so I'm going to just go for a "Pass".
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I wasn't aware that studying hard for clerkships was "gunner" behavior. Thanks for letting us know that. It's so dumb how they all want to honor everything and do well in medical school.
Personally, I don't want to be surrounded by co-residents who are only looking to get by. I like how certain medical students think that their study habits and time management skills are going to magically improve once they are in residency.
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The ones who only tried to get by, surprise, surprise, don't do well when they hit internship, when your responsibilities and time crunch are even greater than as an MS-3.
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Hey, just don't give up. You will get something eventually if you persist, even if it's a prelim year, as long as you passed both parts of step 2. That would at least allow you to get licensed and apply for an advanced R* position in some specialty.
I wouldn't bother with a letter from an FM attending. Probably won't make much difference this late and you just don't have time for that.
Thanks for the support. I really appreciate it. I'm not gonna give up. I just asked for my letters to be adjusted and I'm going to add Family medicine programs.
Can I apply to prelim and categorical IM programs at the same hospital? I'm thinking of just adding on a bunch of prelim programs to increase my chances of matching into something.
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No problem, I hope something works out for you. That sounds like a good idea to try prelims now instead of waiting for SOAP. I've heard of situations where people were able to switch over to an IM categorical spot at the end of their prelim year at the same program when a spot opens up. You could even look at the NRMP report from this year to see which programs had unfilled prelim spots.
I'm not sure, but I don't see why you wouldn't be able to apply to a prelim at a place you already applied for a categorical spot.
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You certainly can apply prelim and categorical at the same hospital.
You should add this program to your list: http://orangeparkmedical.com/professionals/graduate-medical-education/family-medicine-residency.dot
It was just recently added to ERAS and is a new program.
It was just recently added to ERAS and is a new program.
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Studying hard ≠ Gunning
For example, gunning is telling your fellow students 'Let's just keep the presentations low key, I'm not going to bring anything' And then showing up with a Prezi slideshow. Gunning implies active deception.
Reading CaseFiles is not gunning. Studying in the library while your friends are partying is not gunning. Reviewing the problems of your patients that day is not gunning. Getting pimp questions correct is not gunning. Being smart is not gunning. Wanting to do well in medical school is not gunning.
Wanting to do well at the expense of others is gunning.
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Not really sure why you're defining "gunner" for me. Nobody said "Studying hard = Gunning" except you.
I took "going H.A.M. on psych" to mean "studying very hard for psych," especially in the context of what you were saying. If you meant something different, then okay.
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Everyone in my class tried to go for Honors in Psychiatry, mainly bc it was one of the easier and more reasonable ones to do so -- regular 9 to 5 schedule, a lot of the grade was based on the shelf which tends to be the easier ones to study for, etc.
Apparently according to him, if you're going for Derm/Ophtho or any non-MS-3 specialty then you should only be going for Honors in the specialty you're going for (I guess electives?) and I guess go only for Passes in MS-3.
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Going for Honors ≠ Gunning
I feel like you didn't even read my posts. Whatever.
I feel like you didn't even read my posts. Whatever.
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The next obvious step is to clarify your post, not reiterate it. I told you why I was confused, but you failed to address it. That's on you, buddy.
So I just wanted to update this thread and add that since I added the Family Medicine programs, I actually ended up getting two interviews!
I was wondering if you thought it would be worth trying to explain to the other FM programs why I'm applying so late. Should I send them an email and say I decided on a specialty late or something?
I was wondering if you thought it would be worth trying to explain to the other FM programs why I'm applying so late. Should I send them an email and say I decided on a specialty late or something?
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Congrats on your interviews! Been following this thread glad things might be looking up for you. I would e mail the PDs of the FM programs you haven't heard from and cc the coordinators on it. At this point it wouldn't hurt your chances and might even net you a couple more invites
Thanks! What should I say in the emails?
Lol, yes, I'm totally ready to beg. Just wondering what would be more likely to work and what would be more likely to piss the PD off.
Edit: just realized you're talking about programs you applied to before. I'd keep the same advice as below for talking about depression, and modify the other bit. I'd claim indecisiveness about specialty, but that might be worse (looks like lack of dedication). I'm sorry, I got nothing.
wrote a reply and it got deleted by a refresh. Anyway, sorry that the original post wasn't too helpful (couldn't help myself).
I would probably not volunteer information about your application unless asked directly. I would definitely NOT talk about being depressed or turning in my application late, unless I had no other choice.
Instead, I would admit that I knew I was a weak applicant, and I decided on fm very late.
Aside from that, I'd focus on why you're a good fit for whatever programs are offering you interviews and why you hope they'll give you a shot. In other words, the same generic advice that can be applied toward any other program.
I'd guess that program directors will know something is going on with your app, that you're still applying to more programs this late in the season. So don't try to bs them, but I'd avoid giving them the full dose of crazy (no offense meant). Reveal what you have to in order to put them at ease.
Others will likely have better advice for you. I'd keep quiet if I hadn't blabbed above already
Hey, just an update. I went on one of the 2 FM interviews I got (the other is in January). I thought it went well, but when I interviewed with the PD, he said at the end that - "I don't think our program can offer you what you need". I have no idea what that really means, but I'm assuming I'm not going to match there. Maybe I interviewed badly? Is there any resource out there that can help me practice before my next one?
My advisor tells me that there's a 5-10% chance of matching and maybe a slightly higher chance in the SOAP, if I'm willing to take preliminary surgery. Do you think that would be a good idea? Can I get back into IM or FM from preliminary surgery?
It's pretty depressing. I just really don't understand why I can't match given that most people seem to think that a US grad with a pulse should be able to find something 🙁 I feel like I have "serial killer" written on my application or something.
My advisor tells me that there's a 5-10% chance of matching and maybe a slightly higher chance in the SOAP, if I'm willing to take preliminary surgery. Do you think that would be a good idea? Can I get back into IM or FM from preliminary surgery?
It's pretty depressing. I just really don't understand why I can't match given that most people seem to think that a US grad with a pulse should be able to find something 🙁 I feel like I have "serial killer" written on my application or something.
let's look at your options at this point. you can pull out of the match and delay graduation or you can stick it out and try to soap into a spot if it comes to it. i'm not expert on this, but either way i think what could really help would be to look into contingency plans in case you don't match and have to take a year off. if you can find a decent research fellowship and get some good pubs and a good letter out of it, I think it might help your chances when you reapply.
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Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but why can't he continue with the match/SOAP and postpone graduation only if he fails to match? As along as the OP has a requirement incomplete, delaying graduation should remain an option even after match results are out. Not sure it really matters; it'll be challenging either way so I'd take a chance and try to match this year.
The school suggested that deferring graduation would be an option, but they're heavily discouraging that. They are really pushing the prelim surgery thing. I don't know if that's a good idea for me. My advisor told me that my best bet was to either take the prelim surgery spot at our program, or graduate, get some sort of research job, and then either find a spot outside of the match or apply again next season. Any thoughts on this plan?
there was some talk earlier about the school possibly not allowing it since he is would be close to graduation, but I think that could be an option if the school allows for it.
