Non-Caribbean International Medical School Options

[MissGlassSir]

Just from the way you write (almost like someone advertising), because you speak in such extremes (the truth is rarely in reality that way) I'm inclined to take what you've just said with a grain of salt.

Also looking at your post history I saw that you did say in 2010 that you were matriculating at an Israeli school, you've mentioned a stint at UQ and now you are applying to Ireland. Why did you not continue with the Israeli and UQ schools?

Wow, never in my life would I have thought anyone would think I was a phony advertiser. How odd... Maybe I should pursue advertising?

Israel: I was rejected by Sackler (my single awful, awful, awful interview, with an unhinged alum who grilled me on New York City public transit and asked me very little that was relevant to my background/interest in medicine). I got into Ben-Gurion and fell in love with the program; sadly, some rockets fell on the town a few months before I was set to leave, and my parents insisted I look elsewhere. I never applied to Technion; it's in Haifa, which is on the border and thus frequently gets rocket-ed.

Australia: I was at UQ - very briefly. Between the distance from home and the Australian Medical College's ever-expanding requirements for international students (i.e., by the time I left for Oz they'd taken away nearly all our vacation and I had to say Goodbye to my family and partner for a full two years), it was not for me. UQ has a stellar reputation, however, and their admissions' standards for US/Canadian citizens are very lax (24 MCAT, 2.7 GPA, no recs, no interview), so if you fall into that range and are interested in living in Australia (and don't mind the searing heat and lack-of-ozone-layer), you might look into it... The wildlife is awesome and I highly recommend everyone visit Tasmania. I'd thought I could get in elsewhere, however, so I reapplied back home; several waitlists, no acceptances, as my 3.0 GPA + 34 MCAT place me squarely in the Maybe category, and I've not yet been able to climb out of that hole.

Ireland: Like Sackler, the Irish schools' admissions' standards for international students are just-ever-so-slightly less intense than US/Canadian schools. I'm retaking the MCAT next month (my old scores are too old) and am hoping to repeat my previous performance and hopefully make the cut. I'm about to become a dual citizen (US and EU-country) and would like to lay down roots in English-speaking Europe and hopefully get to enjoy the more-pleasant work-life balance after graduation, so Ireland would be ideal (and I'll preempt your next question by explaining that DO would be irrelevant, since the UK/Ireland doesn't recognize the degree, and I'm pretty set on making my life in Europe).

Story of my life - one filled with some bumps and bruises. Thanks for the rehash. Hope that cleared up your "grain of salt."

---

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[MissGlassSir]

Too many guns in the US. No universal healthcare. Education is expensive. And Trump getting as far as he has politically tells you there are a lot of crazies around. I do admit the US is really good for sports, food and beer though. But yeah, my main reason not to go to the US is the guns. I don't want my kids and my family around that stuff.

AMEN. If I hadn't felt that way already, this circus of an election has really soured me on my homeland. Gotta get outta here before President Trump builds a wall around the whole continental US and forcibly relocates us along Winner- and Loser-status... I am a native New Yorker (Winning?) but my failure to get into med school would probably designate me a Loser and I'll be forced into some camp with "Arbeit Mach Trump" over the entrance. (I'm Jewish and am thus allowed to make Holocaust jokes! But so can everyone! Laughter is the best medicine! Trust me, after all my rounds of rejections, I know quite a lot about medicine!)

Regarding guns - if you haven't yet seen John Oliver's incredible, classic, genius, three-part Daily Show report on gun-control (i.e., US vs. Australia), you must YouTube ASAP. And for anyone interested in living/working in Australia: BRING SUNSCREEN... The hole in the ozone layer is no joke (not even laughter can cure skin cancer!), and I still have sun-splotches on my eyelids from a brutal sunburn I got during a freaking CAR RIDE.

 

[Phloston]

AMEN. If I hadn't felt that way already, this circus of an election has really soured me on my homeland. Gotta get outta here before President Trump builds a wall around the whole continental US and forcibly relocates us along Winner- and Loser-status... I am a native New Yorker (Winning?) but my failure to get into med school would probably designate me a Loser and I'll be forced into some camp with "Arbeit Mach Trump" over the entrance. (I'm Jewish and am thus allowed to make Holocaust jokes! But so can everyone! Laughter is the best medicine! Trust me, after all my rounds of rejections, I know quite a lot about medicine!)

Regarding guns - if you haven't yet seen John Oliver's incredible, classic, genius, three-part Daily Show report on gun-control (i.e., US vs. Australia), you must YouTube ASAP. And for anyone interested in living/working in Australia: BRING SUNSCREEN... The hole in the ozone layer is no joke (not even laughter can cure skin cancer!), and I still have sun-splotches on my eyelids from a brutal sunburn I got during a freaking CAR RIDE.

Champion. Make that two Jewish New Yorkers here. But yes, here in Australia at the moment. And definitely have become a heliophobe since moving here.

My favourite YouTube video at the moment:

 

[MissGlassSir]

Champion. Make that two Jewish New Yorkers here. But yes, here in Australia at the moment. And definitely have become a heliophobe since moving here.

My favourite YouTube video at the moment:

Ohhhh Barama, I adore him. I hope he goes the route of Bill Clinton and continues fighting for progressive causes... I also hope he doesn't have a wasting disease.

As a fellow New Yorker I'm banking on you being a fellow Seinfeld fan... Though I adore Bernie I can't listen to him talk without hearing musings about eggplant calzones and Pat Benatar lyrics.

But seriously, Trump's popularity is absolutely terrifying. On the plus-side, he's helping reveal the most depraved aspects of American society, while simultaneously orchestrating the destruction of the Republican party. My conservative uncle (everyone's got one, right?) says it's all Obama's fault for ruining the country (though he won't refer to him by name) and that by November Hillary will be in jail. My bags are packed and I'm ready to flee across the border, while it's still open, to Yukon.

 

[Phloston]

Ohhhh Barama, I adore him. I hope he goes the route of Bill Clinton and continues fighting for progressive causes... I also hope he doesn't have a wasting disease.

As a fellow New Yorker I'm banking on you being a fellow Seinfeld fan... Though I adore Bernie I can't listen to him talk without hearing musings about eggplant calzones and Pat Benatar lyrics.

But seriously, Trump's popularity is absolutely terrifying. On the plus-side, he's helping reveal the most depraved aspects of American society, while simultaneously orchestrating the destruction of the Republican party. My conservative uncle (everyone's got one, right?) says it's all Obama's fault for ruining the country (though he won't refer to him by name) and that by November Hillary will be in jail. My bags are packed and I'm ready to flee across the border, while it's still open, to Yukon.

This is a pretty good article that hits the nail square on the head: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...hat_says_obama_created_trump_that_s_nuts.html

 

[deleted158872]

DO would be irrelevant, since the UK/Ireland doesn't recognize the degree

Are you sure? I've heard on sdn that DO degree is recognized in many parts of Europe. Is there any source on this?

 

[MissGlassSir]

Are you sure? I've heard on sdn that DO degree is recognized in many parts of Europe. Is there any source on this?

Can't get you a source at this moment (Google, Man) but I know 100% it's not recognized in Ireland/UK, which are the only places I'd realistically live (unless the UK leaves the EU, and then I'm down to just Ireland)... The DO degree is a separate discipline in the UK and many former British colonies (e.g., Australia), and thus being a "Doctor of Osteopathy" is more chiropractic health professional, and thus they don't recognize our DOs as physicians and we don't recognize their DOs as "osteopaths." It's just semantics, and it's really dumb, but I suppose the number of DO grads trying to live/work in the UK, etc., has been so small that those regulations have remained. I mean, an MBBS = an MD, so why shouldn't US DOs be able to trade in their initials for some equivalent ones? I know the American Osteopathic Association has fought against assimilation of MD and DO 'cause the leaders of the organization are very dedicated to the osteopathic components of the discipline and want to keep some distinction from allopathic medicine.

I'd happily live in Germany/Austria, Scandinavia, etc., which may accept the DO degree, but, even if you can get away with speaking English to your patients, you gotta speak the language to pass the licensing exam :-(
Anyone have a Rosetta Stone in German or Swedish or Norwegian I can borrow?!?

Canada, however, does accept the DO degree; I'd love to move to Vancouver or Victoria or something but I couldn't do residency there, since I'm not a citizen... But definitely an option for DOs who're planning to flee the USA in the near future, since (like most - all? - places) they need more doctors.

 

[Bottle]

Are you sure? I've heard on sdn that DO degree is recognized in many parts of Europe. Is there any source on this?

I think it should be recognized in the neat future as the equivalent of MD. Here in the middle east, it was recently recognized as MD equivalent around 2014-2015. It is just a matter of time before the global community recognize DO. However, I advise against banking on this fact and treat nations that refuses to recognize DO at the moment as permanent decision and look somewhere else. You don't want to gamble with your future.

 

[Medstart108]

Canada, however, does accept the DO degree; I'd love to move to Vancouver or Victoria or something but I couldn't do residency there, since I'm not a citizen... But definitely an option for DOs who're planning to flee the USA in the near future, since (like most - all? - places) they need more doctors.

Canada doesn't actually have a shortage of doctors in total, only a shortage of primary care physicians in rural areas. There is an oversupply of many surgical specialties, especially neuro, ortho and cardiac.

 

[deleted212936]

Canada doesn't actually have a shortage of doctors in total, only a shortage of primary care physicians in rural areas. There is an oversupply of many surgical specialties, especially neuro, ortho and cardiac.

Curiously, how does Canada NOT have a shortage of doctors as there are very few medical schools in the country?

 

[Mad Jack]

Too many guns in the US. No universal healthcare. Education is expensive. And Trump getting as far as he has politically tells you there are a lot of crazies around. I do admit the US is really good for sports, food and beer though. But yeah, my main reason not to go to the US is the guns. I don't want my kids and my family around that stuff.

You can go your entire life without seeing a gun in the US if you want, plenty of places to do so. Not that I'm encouraging you to stay in the US (we're full up on soft socialists), but that's pretty much the worst reason I can imagine to leave lol.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx

Can't get you a source at this moment (Google, Man) but I know 100% it's not recognized in Ireland/UK, which are the only places I'd realistically live (unless the UK leaves the EU, and then I'm down to just Ireland)... The DO degree is a separate discipline in the UK and many former British colonies (e.g., Australia), and thus being a "Doctor of Osteopathy" is more chiropractic health professional, and thus they don't recognize our DOs as physicians and we don't recognize their DOs as "osteopaths." It's just semantics, and it's really dumb, but I suppose the number of DO grads trying to live/work in the UK, etc., has been so small that those regulations have remained. I mean, an MBBS = an MD, so why shouldn't US DOs be able to trade in their initials for some equivalent ones? I know the American Osteopathic Association has fought against assimilation of MD and DO 'cause the leaders of the organization are very dedicated to the osteopathic components of the discipline and want to keep some distinction from allopathic medicine.

I'd happily live in Germany/Austria, Scandinavia, etc., which may accept the DO degree, but, even if you can get away with speaking English to your patients, you gotta speak the language to pass the licensing exam :-(
Anyone have a Rosetta Stone in German or Swedish or Norwegian I can borrow?!?

Canada, however, does accept the DO degree; I'd love to move to Vancouver or Victoria or something but I couldn't do residency there, since I'm not a citizen... But definitely an option for DOs who're planning to flee the USA in the near future, since (like most - all? - places) they need more doctors.

The DO degree is 100% recognized by the UK. You are eligible to sit for the PLAB and have full practice rights. We've been able to practice in the UK since 2005, though the biggest hurdle you'll have is getting a training spot unless you have EU citizenship, as they don't recognize ACGME training.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems you have that taken care of as well.

 

[Medstart108]

Curiously, how does Canada NOT have a shortage of doctors as there are very few medical schools in the country?

Actually its pretty proportional, we have 17 medical schools for a population of about 35 million and on top of that our schools can get pretty large, for example UdeM has 330 students, UBC and UofT both have around 270-80 each year.

Also, Canada actively uses NP and PAs in its healthcare system.

 

[deleted158872]

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx
The DO degree is 100% recognized by the UK. You are eligible to sit for the PLAB and have full practice rights. We've been able to practice in the UK since 2005, though the biggest hurdle you'll have is getting a training spot unless you have EU citizenship, as they don't recognize ACGME training.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems you have that taken care of as well.

Does the UK allow DOs FULL scope of practice like in the US, though?

 

[Mad Jack]

Does the UK allow DOs FULL scope of practice like in the US, though?

Yes. They are allowed to practice like any other doctor, and have had those rights since 2005. That osteopaths happen to also exist in the country does not affect our full status as physicians. Amusingly and somewhat related, in Australia we have full medical practice rights but are banned from using osteopathic manipulation or calling ourselves osteopaths because the osteopath profession there thinks we aren't qualified to perform osteopathy due to our rather lax OMM requirements, while the regular medical establishment believes we're plenty qualified to practice regular medicine.

 

[deleted158872]

but it says on UK website that:

To be eligible to sit the PLAB test or apply for GMC registration, you must hold an ‘acceptable overseas qualification’. An acceptable overseas qualification meets all the criteria approved by our General Council. A qualification which does not meet all of the criteria cannot be accepted. The criteria are set out below:

1. a. It must be a primary medical qualification in allopathic medicine that :
   1. i. has been awarded by an institution listed on, the World Directory of Medical Schools or on, the International Medical Education Directory (IMED);
      OR
   2. ii. is otherwise acceptable to the GMC,
      AND in all cases
   3. iii. Is currently acceptable to the GMC."

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

and the only osteopathic school that "may be acceptable" to qualify for UK practice is Touro University of California College of Osteopathic Medicine (TUCOM) (this only applies to graduates who graduated on or after 1 January 2010): http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/14389.asp#3

 

[Mad Jack]

but it says on UK website that:


http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

and the only osteopathic school that "may be acceptable" to qualify for UK practice is Touro University of California College of Osteopathic Medicine (TUCOM) (this only applies to graduates who graduated on or after 1 January 2010): http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/14389.asp#3

COMs are now listed in the World Directory of Medical schools, the source by which the GMC verifies whether a school is acceptable or not. There are many prior discussions of this if you do a search through the SDN archives, but basically, I've yet to hear of anyone be denied a chance to sit for the PLAB on the basis of their DO education. The trouble is that we were not previously listed in the WHO directory of medical schools (a practice that was changed with the World Directory of Medical Schools system) and thus were not listed in the directory of "real" medical schools until two years ago, and thus had to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Feel free to contact the GMC yourself though, they're actually quite helpful about letting you know exactly what one must do to have their school considered. In the past, it was generally just a bunch of extra paperwork showing the percentage of students that complete their degree, the contents of the curriculum, and that they could sit for the USMLE in the United States.

 

[Mad Jack]

but it says on UK website that:


http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

and the only osteopathic school that "may be acceptable" to qualify for UK practice is Touro University of California College of Osteopathic Medicine (TUCOM) (this only applies to graduates who graduated on or after 1 January 2010): http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/14389.asp#3

Actually, it seems this entire discussion is moot anyway, as the EU will effectively be banning all US-trained physicians from practicing there due to their newly mandated 5-year minimum medical school duration requirement. RIP EU practice for US physicians, I guess.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/849040
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

From 18 January 2016, EU law requires basic medical training to be both 5,500 hours AND five years. Please read the information below to understand if the changes apply to your primary medical qualification.

So basically, none of us will get to practice, unless they make some concessions to the ECFMG. I highly doubt that will happen, however, unless the ECFMG decides to ban EU graduates from practicing in the United States unless they guarantee us reciprocity. And that won't happen, because our physician organizations are soft as ****.

 

[deleted158872]

Actually, it seems this entire discussion is moot anyway, as the EU will effectively be banning all US-trained physicians from practicing there due to their newly mandated 5-year minimum medical school duration requirement. RIP EU practice for US physicians, I guess.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/849040
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

From 18 January 2016, EU law requires basic medical training to be both 5,500 hours AND five years. Please read the information below to understand if the changes apply to your primary medical qualification.

So basically, none of us will get to practice, unless they make some concessions to the ECFMG. I highly doubt that will happen, however, unless the ECFMG decides to ban EU graduates from practicing in the United States unless they guarantee us reciprocity. And that won't happen, because our physician organizations are soft as ****.

WOW, that is pretty dingus-ish of them.
they themselves do have graduate-entry 4-year programs for those with bachelor degrees, too: http://www.medschools.ac.uk/Students/Courses/Pages/Graduate.aspx

i think ECFMG should do the same to them.

 

[Mad Jack]

WOW, that would be dingus-ish of them.
they themselves do have graduate-entry 4-year programs for those with bachelor degrees, too: http://www.medschools.ac.uk/Students/Courses/Pages/Graduate.aspx

i think ECFMG should do the same to them.

That's actually what the first link I posted talks about- how successful the UK's 4 year graduate entry programs are, and how the hell they might manage to keep them after this change. The general consensus is that they're going to have to extend training by a year, unfortunately, or the programs will have to close.

Unfortunately the EU doesn't recognize that some countries (COUGH USA USA USA COUGH) actually get far more than 5,500 hours of time over the span of 4 years, because we bust our asses in school and don't take daily tea breaks and multiple vacations every clinical year.

 

[UBC2014]

Actually, it seems this entire discussion is moot anyway, as the EU will effectively be banning all US-trained physicians from practicing there due to their newly mandated 5-year minimum medical school duration requirement. RIP EU practice for US physicians, I guess.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/849040
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

From 18 January 2016, EU law requires basic medical training to be both 5,500 hours AND five years. Please read the information below to understand if the changes apply to your primary medical qualification.

So basically, none of us will get to practice, unless they make some concessions to the ECFMG. I highly doubt that will happen, however, unless the ECFMG decides to ban EU graduates from practicing in the United States unless they guarantee us reciprocity. And that won't happen, because our physician organizations are soft as ****.

What?
Read the link, and it seems to imply the US and Canada are safe. It says "depending on your circumstances".

In the list of schools which "may be acceptable" are a bunch of carribean schools. So if those "may be acceptable" - than I can gaurantee that US/Canadian MD/DO programs are for sure "acceptable".

Either that, or we are in bizzaro world and things have gone bonkers.

 

[deleted158872]

What?
Read the link, and it seems to imply the US and Canada are safe. It says "depending on your circumstances".

do they state the specific "circumstances"? if they don't then the US and Canada are subjected to that ****ty 5-year requirement like everybody else.

 

[Mad Jack]

What?
Read the link, and it seems to imply the US and Canada are safe. It says "depending on your circumstances".

In the list of schools which "may be acceptable" are a bunch of carribean schools. So if those "may be acceptable" - than I can gaurantee that US/Canadian MD/DO programs are for sure "acceptable".

Either that, or we are in bizzaro world and things have gone bonkers.

That rule went into play this January, and is an EU rule that the UK cannot overrule. I'll have to send some emails to the guy DOs usually work with at the GMC, he can tell it to me straight. I'll get back to you.

 

[UBC2014]

That rule went into play this January, and is an EU rule that the UK cannot overrule. I'll have to send some emails to the guy DOs usually work with at the GMC, he can tell it to me straight. I'll get back to you.

Interesting... still seems odd.

So effectively Canadian and american trained physicians would be screwed? Seems very odd if that was the case...

 

[deleted158872]

not only US and Canada, but foreign-trained grads in general AND some of EU's grads would be screwed as well.

however, look at this:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/28626.asp
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/28623.asp

EEA national = 5 years
non-EEA national (or UK) = 3 years

it seems that this new law only applies to non-UK EU countries.

 

[Mad Jack]

not only US and Canada, but foreign-trained grads in general AND some of EU's grads would be screwed as well.

however, look at this:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/28626.asp
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/28623.asp

EEA national = 5 years
non-EEA national (or UK) = 3 years

it seems that this new law only applies to non-UK EU countries.

So you're telling me if I started working in Sweden, then married a Swede and got citizenship, my qualifications would suddenly no longer qualify because I'd be a citizen with less than 5 years of school?

What the actual hell, Europe.

 

[UBC2014]

Seems like a bunch of theoretical legistlative b.s. that doesn't take the real world into account.

And if the interpretations are correct, will be overturned or exempted soon as people start going "what the f eh?".

 

[Phloston]

You can go your entire life without seeing a gun in the US if you want, plenty of places to do so. Not that I'm encouraging you to stay in the US (we're full up on soft socialists), but that's pretty much the worst reason I can imagine to leave lol.

If you've spent enough time away from the US (I'm on 6.5 years now) you'd begin to internalize the differences, both good and bad.

The international perspective at the moment is the US is full of crazies. Trump isn't non-representative of the Republican party; he's very representative of it. The people registered to vote within the party ARE the party. It's not a culture I have interest in being around. Even in highly liberal areas you still have wackjobs (e.g., NJ with Christie as its governor). Trump will not be president, but those voters are forever ignominious Trump-voters.

You reserve your right to not have gun accessibility in the US affect your decision-making on a place of living.

 

[deleted731525]

Why even make a rule like that? What potential benefit does it provide? Seems like it just causes headaches.

 

[deleted731525]

If you've spent enough time away from the US (I'm on 6.5 years now) you'd begin to internalize the differences, both good and bad.

The international perspective at the moment is the US is full of crazies. Trump isn't non-representative of the Republican party; he's very representative of it. The people voting within the party ARE the party. It's not a culture I have interest in being around. Even in highly liberal areas you still have wackjobs. Trump will not be president, but those voters are forever Trump-voters.

You reserve your right to not have gun accessibility in the US affect your decision-making on a place of living.

The thing with Trump is that he is still only supported by a minority of Republicans who are themselves less than 50% of the US population. He has won his states with less than 50% of the vote because the other candidates were splitting the vote. Also they took way too long to run attack ads on him.

 

[Mad Jack]

Seems like a bunch of theoretical legistlative b.s. that doesn't take the real world into account.

And if the interpretations are correct, will be overturned or exempted soon as people start going "what the f eh?".

Actually it seems like well thought out protectionist BS on the part of Europeans educated in Europe. There's similar things being thrown around in the US right now, that would give US MDs and DOs the first shot at residencies, after which IMGs would be able to go, and finally there'd be a SOAP. That's what happens when things get tight- everyone starts pointing fingers everywhere but at themselves.

 

[Phloston]

The thing with Trump is that he is still only supported by a minority of Republicans who are themselves less than 50% of the US population. He has won his states with less than 50% of the vote because the other candidates were splitting the vote. Also they took way too long to run attack ads on him.

It's still just the primary. Many people who aren't voting for him now will support the eventual Republican nominee regardless as to who it is. Even if that means a diabolical, Muslim-hating bigot.

 

[Mirp]

Can anyone give a ballpark figure for hourly FM/GP rates outside the US? Various website figures I've seen make it look like US rates are much better. Seems like compensation for some of the issues brought up in this thread.

 

[deleted158872]

Can anyone give a ballpark figure for hourly FM/GP rates outside the US? Various website figures I've seen make it look like US rates are much better. Seems like compensation for some of the issues brought up in this thread.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/771433_3
Adjusted for purchasing-power parity, US primary care physicians in 2008 earned an average of $186,582 before taxes and after expenses, compared with $159,532 in the United Kingdom, $131,809 in Germany, and $95,585 in France.

http://www.young-germany.de/topic/work/jobs-career/career-doctor-finding-a-job
The average starting salary for medical graduates in Germany is €49,000 a year. This is higher than any other field of study. Specialists do even better averaging between €70,000 and €100,000 a year.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4426124/
About 40% of head physicians earn between 125,000 and 400,000 Euro/year on average. They can make more money, if they are allowed to have privately insured patients. [ i also think that the numbers on this website are lower than in reality. my GP aunt in Germany with 15 years experience is making ~€120,000/year post-tax - the same as US PCP. ]

Remember, they have zero student loans.

 

[kcehreuhcs]

http://www.young-germany.de/topic/work/jobs-career/career-doctor-finding-a-job
The average starting salary for medical graduates in Germany is €49,000 a year. This is higher than any other field of study. Specialists do even better averaging between €70,000 and €100,000 a year.

Keep in mind these numbers usually do not include night shifts. Depending on the specialty, as a 4th-year resident you can easily make up to 80k-90k € a year (with ~5 night shifts per month).

 

[Mirp]

i also think that the numbers on this website are lower than in reality. my GP aunt in Germany with 15 years experience is making ~€120,000/year post-tax - the same as US PCP.

I've had similar experiences and seen GPs in UK and Germany living very, very well, which is why I asked. The websites seem skewed toward painting the US in a better light than it deserves it seems. If the pay disparity were as bad as Medscape makes it seem I think more docs would be coming to the US from Western Europe, Oz, etc which I don't see happening.

 

[bashwell]

I've had similar experiences and seen GPs in UK and Germany living very, very well, which is why I asked. The websites seem skewed toward painting the US in a better light than it deserves it seems. If the pay disparity were as bad as Medscape makes it seem I think more docs would be coming to the US from Western Europe, Oz, etc which I don't see happening.

I don't know about European doctors (except UK) but Australian doctors do quite well, depending on specialty. Some do as well and better than their US counterparts.

Not to mention Australia's health care system is currently more stable than the US. US health care is changing and will continue to change over the next decade or more. This will affect how and how much doctors in the US are paid. The pressure on most US doctors' salaries seems to be downward, whereas salaries in Australia are more settled, though that's not to say Australia doesn't have its own problems including problems with jobs and salaries.

 

[deleted158872]

If the pay disparity were as bad as Medscape makes it seem I think more docs would be coming to the US from Western Europe, Oz, etc which I don't see happening.

well, money isn't the only factor in life for many people. they're not coming to the US because they have universal healthcare, free education, paid parental leave, generous pension, work-life balance and many other benefits that we don't have here...

 

[Medstart108]

I've had similar experiences and seen GPs in UK and Germany living very, very well, which is why I asked. The websites seem skewed toward painting the US in a better light than it deserves it seems. If the pay disparity were as bad as Medscape makes it seem I think more docs would be coming to the US from Western Europe, Oz, etc which I don't see happening.

Its not the GPs that make a lot in the US its the specialists, the disparity between specialists and GPs is massive in the US whereas its miniscule in the UK.

The specialists protect their field very well in the US, it is very difficult to find a position without having the right pedigree.

 

[Areopagus]

Curiously, how does Canada NOT have a shortage of doctors as there are very few medical schools in the country?

There are 17 medical schools in Canada.

Canada has 1/10th the US population, so they have the equivalent of 170 med schools.

A lot of them have huge class sizes too. I think UBC's is pushing 300. High 200s at the very least.

 

[bashwell]

Pretty interesting. I might be wrong, but I "think" the US has something like 170-180 med schools (both allopathic/MD and osteopathic/DO).

 

[MissGlassSir]

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx
The DO degree is 100% recognized by the UK. You are eligible to sit for the PLAB and have full practice rights. We've been able to practice in the UK since 2005, though the biggest hurdle you'll have is getting a training spot unless you have EU citizenship, as they don't recognize ACGME training.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems you have that taken care of as well.

WHAT?!? I looked this up, like, 2-3 years ago and whatever legit source (AOA or something like it?) explained that in the UK and most former British colonies the osteopathic profession is completely different and thus a US DO ain't recognized and, conversely, a UK DO ain't recognized here. Are you speaking from personal experience? 'Cause if that's true that's amazing; I mean, you're a freaking physician, why on earth should some silly initials allow/forbid you from sitting for a licensing exam?!?

 

[MissGlassSir]

If you've spent enough time away from the US (I'm on 6.5 years now) you'd begin to internalize the differences, both good and bad.

The international perspective at the moment is the US is full of crazies. Trump isn't non-representative of the Republican party; he's very representative of it. The people registered to vote within the party ARE the party. It's not a culture I have interest in being around. Even in highly liberal areas you still have wackjobs (e.g., NJ with Christie as its governor). Trump will not be president, but those voters are forever ignominious Trump-voters.

You reserve your right to not have gun accessibility in the US affect your decision-making on a place of living.

Amen.

 

[Mad Jack]

WHAT?!? I looked this up, like, 2-3 years ago and whatever legit source (AOA or something like it?) explained that in the UK and most former British colonies the osteopathic profession is completely different and thus a US DO ain't recognized and, conversely, a UK DO ain't recognized here. Are you speaking from personal experience? 'Cause if that's true that's amazing; I mean, you're a freaking physician, why on earth should some silly initials allow/forbid you from sitting for a licensing exam?!?

DOs have been allowed to practice in former British colonies four years dude. Osteopaths exist as a second profession, however, and obfuscate things for the general public. In Australia, for instance, US DOs are actually forbidden from using OMM or calling ourselves osteopaths because the osteopathic board of Australia considers our training to be inadequate to be osteopaths. This results in the rather ironic situation of US DOs only being allowed to practice allopathic medicine and to only call themselves physicians in Australia.

 

[MissGlassSir]

Why even make a rule like that? What potential benefit does it provide? Seems like it just causes headaches.

That doesn't even make sense, as there're numerous 4-year schools in the EU, and they're not just the English-speaking programs attended by North Americans... The Republic of Ireland, for instance, has four 4-year schools, Poland has a few, etc...

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/development/international-osteopathic-medicine/Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx

This map lists all countries in which DOs can practice, for the record. Again.

 

[MissGlassSir]

DOs have been allowed to practice in former British colonies four years dude. Osteopaths exist as a second profession, however, and obfuscate things for the general public. In Australia, for instance, US DOs are actually forbidden from using OMM or calling ourselves osteopaths because the osteopathic board of Australia considers our training to be inadequate to be osteopaths. This results in the rather ironic situation of US DOs only being allowed to practice allopathic medicine and to only call themselves physicians in Australia.

That's insane. I literally looked that up after considering DO and being told my license would be moot in Europe. I even met a British osteopath AND an Aussie osteopath who confirmed this. Insane. Why can't they just freakin' merge and get it over with?!? It's so silly, since - what? - like, 99% of US DOs never do OMM after graduation?

 

[Mad Jack]

That doesn't even make sense, as there're numerous 4-year schools in the EU, and they're not just the English-speaking programs attended by North Americans... The Republic of Ireland, for instance, has four 4-year schools, Poland has a few, etc...

All of those programs are to be done away with by EU law. Anyone completing them will only be able to practice in non-EU countries. It's a blatant protectionist measure, basically.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's insane. I literally looked that up after considering DO and being told my license would be moot in Europe. I even met a British osteopath AND an Aussie osteopath who confirmed this. Insane. Why can't they just freakin' merge and get it over with?!? It's so silly, since - what? - like, 99% of US DOs never do OMM after graduation?

What's insane? We have full medical practice rights in the UK, NZ, Australia, and Canada. If you want to have some fun, contact an international recruitment agency in NZ and tell them you're a US DO.boarded in FM- they'll literally beg you to work for them. You seem to have been horribly misinformed.

 

[MissGlassSir]

What's insane? We have full medical practice rights in the UK, NZ, Australia, and Canada. If you want to have some fun, contact an international recruitment agency in NZ and tell them you're a US DO.boarded in FM- they'll literally beg you to work for them. You seem to have been horribly misinformed.

I don't get it - did this just change in the last couple years??? Can't speak for NZ but I was (briefly) in allopathic school in Australia, which I chose over US DO BECAUSE I knew I wanted to be able to practice anywhere...