Non Categorical programs

[ED50]

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Hey all, I was looking for a bit of advise. I'm trying to figure out what first year programs to apply to if I match into a three year program. I am planning on applying to all my local prelim programs, but there are not very many. This means I will need to apply outside of where I currently live. Here is where the impasse is. Do I just pick a region where I wouldn't mind living for one year or do I apply to the one year programs at the places I'm hoping to match to? I'm going to apply to apply to quite a few programs and it seems expensive to apply to a slightly less number of prelim spots. Any suggestions would be appreciated. What did you do?

 

[NightFury]

Personally, I found that I needed to apply to more prelim or transitional programs than I planned to get a number of interviews that I was comfortable with. I applied mostly to programs in the region I preferred to live in but also to programs near advanced programs that I applied to. This way I could rank that program first in the sub-rank list for the corresponding PM&R program. I started off applying to probably around mid-20s PM&R programs and once I had interviews at all the ones I was most interested in I cancelled the others and withdrew from those I hadn't heard from yet. On the other hand, I applied to probably around 10 intern years at first and added more into the 20's total because I wasn't receiving nearly as many interviews from them. I would recommend being a little more aggressive with applying to intern years, particularly if you are interested in many advanced programs.
I think the worst part about applying for PM&R (or any other advanced specialty) is that you have to go on extra interviews! Unfortunately, I think it's a lot more expensive to apply for a specialty that has lots of advanced positions.

 

[RangerBob]

I applied to every community prelim IM and TY where I went to medical school (Chicago... there's quite a few) and my home institution, as well as most TYs within a 6hr drive or so (Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan...). I didn't want to waste and money flying to and from pre-lim interviews, but unfortunately not everyone will have that luxury.

If you can't do that, then you have two main things to consider:
1) Pick a nearby region (with cheap direct flights, or relatively close drive--an 8-12hr drive should get you to almost at least one decent metropolitan area unless you're in the high plains) and apply heavily to that area. Hopefully you can do most/all interviews together in one string, but that's often unlikely given that PM&R programs only offer so many interviews and those could interrupt those plans.

2) Apply to a few prelims in the regions of your top (and realistic) choice PM&R programs, and hope that you both get an interview, and can schedule it around your PM&R interview. Keep in mind if you do this you can rank pre-lims separate for each advanced program (example, say you live in Miami, and your first choice is RIC. You can rank the Chicago prelims first in your supplemental list for RIC, then your home Miami programs, then the pre-lim programs from other cities (to make sure you match--you always want to be safe, even if it means two large moves).

Personally I think option 2 wastes a lot of money and energy. But everyone has different opinions.

Also keep in mind some programs will coordinate pre-lim interviews with advanced interviews, but it isn't very common. And some advanced programs actually have a few guaranteed pre-lim positions for those who want them (you'd be an IM-prelim, so it's technically not a categorical program, but it's effectively the same thing)

 

[lejeunesage]

1. How competitive are you? If you're above average competitiveness for PM&R, you could get away with applying to 15 or so internship spots. If you're of average competitiveness for PM&R, you might find it prudent to apply to 30+ internship positions.

2. How much would you hate doing a surgery prelim? If you're like most people, it's "a lot." If you don't mind doing surgery for a year, then apply to 10 programs and don't think about it too much, because some prelim surgery spots always stay open.

3. It's a bit personal what you look for in an internship. Most people look for the easiest hours and easiest program they can find. It's also convenient if you can have your internship in the same city/State as your advanced program, since you won't have to use your vacation time to move. But some people also decide that they'd like to spend a year in Hawaii or Southern California, since they don't think they'll get another chance to experience it. There is a huge geographical bias, though, so your best response rates will be in your home State.

4. Don't worry about cost right now. Borrow extra money if you have to. What's another grand or 2 on top of what you already owe. Better to over-apply and waste money than under-apply and not match...

 

[ED50]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I appreciate the guidance. I'm a pretty average applicant and one year of surgery would be nothing short of a nightmare for me. Rangerbob, I like the suggestion of trying to apply to every program within 6-8 hour drive. I might be able to find enough programs to apply to if I do that. Right now my home city has 4 programs and one is pretty competitive. How many interviews do you all recommend? I've heard 10 or so pm&r, what about prelim programs? Any suggestions on number to go one?

 

[sidabear]

There is a huge geographical bias, though, so your best response rates will be in your home State.

How much of the geographical correlation between med school and residency location is due to admission bias, and how much is due to applicants wanting to stay in the same region or wanting to save money by not travelling across the country?

Just curious, since many of the residencies I am interested in are not really in my same geographical area of my med school (and I would love to get to know another part of the country). Is that really a factor when residencies rank applicants?

 

[lejeunesage]

Not sure, really. My guess is that program directors think that applicants won't want to move, since many people end up staying locally and that in turns makes them less likely to rank outsiders highly.
I'm just guessing, though.
But I've seen many people in the position I was in, where the majority of the interviews I got was from institutions in my home state.

 

[NightFury]

There was more geographic bias than I expected. I went to medical school in an entirely different region than my hometown, and I was trying to return to my home region. I wasn't hearing much back, and then I got an email from a program that told me they apologized, because they had originally put me in a pile to interview but then saw that I was coming from so far away; when looking again they noticed I was originally from the area and now wanted to invite me to interview. Then, I emailed all the programs in that region to clarify where I was from and that I had only moved away for school, and the very next day received an interview invite from a program. At that interview, the PD told me they originally didn't plan to interview me until I emailed, because they didn't think someone from (my med school location) would actually want to move all the way to their program. So if you are living in another region, I would recommend letting programs know about your tie to that area via email.

Editing to clarify that I was talking about prelim/TY programs here! I did not notice any geographical bias with PM&R programs that I applied to.

 

[RangerBob]

I agree that there is sometimes a geographical bias at some programs--especially for prelims. Two pre-lim interviews I specifically got because I called to let them know I was really interested in their program (and I ranked one of them first and matched there--so it really paid off). There were some PM&R programs where this was the case as well--there were two programs I was on the wait-list for where I was bumped up the list because I called and expressed an interest. (Obviously this wouldn't have helped me if I wasn't applicant they would consider otherwise)

Programs spend a lot of time/energy/money with interviews, and they want to interview the best applicants they can that they think have a good chance of ranking them high. Like us applying to reach programs, programs will interview "reach" candidates, but in general a RIC-worthy applicant from Chicago/NY/SF will probably not get an interview from the worst program in the middle of Alaska (I know Alaska has no PM&R programs--just trying to make a point).

As far as number of programs to apply to--I think 10 is too few unless you're a really competitive applicant. The advice I got (and would recommend) was aim to rank 8 programs and interview at 10 (since you may decide not to rank them all). I ended up interviewing at 13, and ranked all. Originally I applied to about 16 programs, but then I got nervous mid-late Oct with how few invites I had received and then added maybe 10 or 15 more programs pretty late. I got what I felt was plenty of invites and turned a few down, but I think things are slightly more competitive now (no unfilled positions in the last match) and would recommend applying to 20-30 PM&R programs off the bat--but I also prefer to play it safe.

Remember, it's far better to apply to too many programs and find yourself having to cancel interviews than apply to few and find yourself applying to additional programs late, since the latter puts you at a disadvantage. Applying is relatively cheap--the interview itself is where costs start adding up (esp if you are flying multiple times across the country).

As far as pre-lims, I think I applied to 20 pre-lims and interviewed at around 9. It felt (and turned out to be) excessive, but like I said, I wanted to play it safe. And I had the time (almost all were local, and the others were a 3-5hr drive away). I also really, really didn't want to SOAP for a pre-lim surgery position...

You always hear of people that match at their last/close to last choice prelim/categorical (or not at all) and I really didn't want to be one of those people. Lots of people apply to fewer programs and match fine. But why risk not matching? And you will be surprised at how many programs/cities you originally weren't that interested in that will impress you when you actually visit and interview. (And in some cases how much you actually dislike a city/program you were originally really interested in).