Non-cut throat med schools

[deuce]

Obviously some schools are more "throaty" than others, and obviously for a variety of reasons places like Hopkins and Duke will - almost inevitably- be more intense experiences (tradition, curriculum, educational philosophy etc)..but what schools are succeeding in creating a balanced thoughtful sane but very solid academic environment for med students, that encourage socialization rather than competition between students, have a supportive administration, recognize that med students are people, and make some effort to put students interests/needs on a level with faculty's priorities url]http://img.studentdoctor.net/images/smilies/confused.gif[/url]
😕

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[sirus_virus]

Obviously some schools are more "throaty" than others, and obviously for a variety of reasons places like Hopkins and Duke will - almost inevitably- be more intense experiences (tradition, curriculum, educational philosophy etc)..but what schools are succeeding in creating a balanced thoughtful sane but very solid academic environment for med students, that encourage socialization rather than competition between students, have a supportive administration, recognize that med students are people, and make some effort to put students interests/needs on a level with faculty's priorities url]http://img.studentdoctor.net/images/smilies/confused.gif[/url]
😕

I am yet to hear of one. But I am also curious

 

[Jacks Mannequin]

Medical College of GA seems like a pretty relaxed atmosphere and the students and faculty seem really nice. They all say it's not cut-throat at all and everyone helps each other out. That's the only one I've visited thus far, so I guess I can't really compare with other schools.

 

[KarEntropy]

From what I've heard, University of Chicago really encourages students to maintain a life outside of medical studies, and the great majority of students are really cooperative with each other, sharing study guides and working in groups, etc. The administration advertises their pass/fail grading system of the first two years as a way for students to prioritize their medical and non-medical interests, and this also encourages students to work together because they're not in competition grade-wise.
I've heard similar things about Northwestern, too, but I don't know too much about them.

 

[dln72183]

Creighton seemed to be that way. U of Minn was a bit like that, but not as much as creighton. my $0.02. a penny for each school.

but honestly, it seems a lot of school are like that now, especially as schools switch to pass/no pass systems.

 

[epigastric]

For socialization vs competition: a good way to identify the school's priority is to look at how grades are generated. Is there a strict curve, with a set number of people who can receive a grade (x HPs, y Ps, z Fs, etc) per class? Or is there a numerical cutoff for each grade (anyone who makes 90+ is automatically HP)? The former encourages promotes more cutthroat tactics, the latter encourages self-competition over peer competition.

While this doesn't work every time, it's been a good rule of thumb for me. For example, an M2 at Georgetown was just telling me how she went to the library to read a textbook page that the professor said would be on the exam, only to find someone had torn that page out. They use a strict curve. Whereas my friend at GW, which uses the second grading style, always talks about how his classmates are happy to share notes.

 

[dln72183]

I've actually heard that northwestern has an f-ign tough biochem class. I've heard it is really high stress since they grade on a curve in which approx the10% lowest grades fail. that's what my buudy said who is in their freshman class, and he's a biochem major. I could be mistake though... I'll double check.

 

[Punkn]

Creighton's students are very supportive and the environment was not competitive. I experienced this when I interviewed and an M1 and M2 I know both emphasized it a lot. Loyola has a similar reputation.

 

[JustBreathe]

For socialization vs competition: a good way to identify the school's priority is to look at how grades are generated. Is there a strict curve, with a set number of people who can receive a grade (x HPs, y Ps, z Fs, etc) per class? Or is there a numerical cutoff for each grade (anyone who makes 90+ is automatically HP)? The former encourages promotes more cutthroat tactics, the latter encourages self-competition over peer competition.

While this doesn't work every time, it's been a good rule of thumb for me. For example, an M2 at Georgetown was just telling me how she went to the library to read a textbook page that the professor said would be on the exam, only to find someone had torn that page out. They use a strict curve. Whereas my friend at GW, which uses the second grading style, always talks about how his classmates are always happy to share notes.

I'd say that we're pretty social and cooperative, rather than competitive. First year is strict pass/fail while second year is graded (honors, high pass, pass, fail) but with numerical cut-offs rather than a curve. Do not underestimate the importance of pass/fail grading to your future sanity!

 

[epigastric]

I'd say that we're pretty social and cooperative, rather than competitive. First year is strict pass/fail while second year is graded (honors, high pass, pass, fail) but with numerical cut-offs rather than a curve. Do not underestimate the importance of pass/fail grading to your future sanity!

I think the numerical cut-offs are the sanest, personally. It may not make for such an obvious class ranking, but the students I meet at these kind of schools will still be good doctors, and they're much more laid-back.

 

[JustBreathe]

I think the numerical cut-offs are the sanest, personally. It may not make for such an obvious class ranking, but the students I meet at these kind of schools will still be good doctors, and they're much more laid-back.

Yes, cut-offs are key for second year. I can't even imagine having to beat out the people here for a grade.

 

[Vox Animo]

I'm over at ccom (DO).

We have straight percentages, no curve.

All students work together pretty well and help each other out.

Not cuthroat at all.

 

[dln72183]

I think the numerical cut-offs are the sanest, personally. It may not make for such an obvious class ranking, but the students I meet at these kind of schools will still be good doctors, and they're much more laid-back.

I agree

 

[JDovers]

Check out UTMB for a laid back atmosphere. Very progressive medical education on an island. You can't beat that.

 

[Dookter]

Duke isn't cutthroat at all! We have a H/P/F first year [the one that is supposedly so intense but actually ends up easier than school at other med schools in my opinion]. We have no % brackets in the grades [i.e. everyone can make an A if they make an A on the exam]. The tests are usually very fair also, so we have really high exam averages usually. I actually JUST got an email from a course director saying our class average on the last physio exam was 86.7%, and this was an exam we all complained was too hard after we took it! We also have a really social class, and the school has a governing body with lots of $$ for events [weekend before this past weekend was a masquerade ball]. Then year three is independent research, getting another degree, etc. For most people it is like having a 9-5 job, and SOOOO relaxed compared to what you think of med school as being like. Also, some of our profs have always fought to make things optional [class, lab, etc.]. Imagine NEVER going to class if you don't learn that way. I do not go 95% of the time. I also did not attend a single lab for the gross anatomy exam and practical I took today. Why? B/c I learn better other ways. Duke seems to respect that, so I get to do my own thing.

Bottom line: Duke is not cutthroat in the least. I do not know where you got that from.

EDIT: I should add that I think Yale is probably one of the most chill places out there from what I hear.

 

[NoktorNoL]

Students at both UVa and UMich (both purely pass/fail not honors, etc.) said that the students are all about helping each other by sending out common notes, etc. My own interactions with students at UMich definitely confirmed this. I haven't been able to see what the first year students are actually like at UVa because we only met fourth years, and their curriculum was a bit different. However, more than one first year student has told me that UVa students are like that too.

The thing is, how the students perceive the competitiveness at a school really depends on how competitive their undergraduate atmosphere was. I would probably find both UVa and Michigan pretty chill because I thought the UVa undergrad pre-meds were pretty competitive but it might depend on your school.

 

[Cirrus83]

This sounds funny but I think yale is actually fairly non-cut-throat. The major exams are all anonymous anyway (at least for the first few years-dunno the deets exactly), so there isn't really insane pressure on you. You do have a few non-anonymous things but they're not huge tests or anything so there isn't super pressure there either.

I think most med schools try to not have everyone trying to backstab each other with the crazyness.

 

[Dookter]

This sounds funny but I think yale is actually fairly non-cut-throat. The major exams are all anonymous anyway (at least for the first few years-dunno the deets exactly), so there isn't really insane pressure on you. You do have a few non-anonymous things but they're not huge tests or anything so there isn't super pressure there either.

I think most med schools try to not have everyone trying to backstab each other with the crazyness.

Yeah one of our profs that went to Yale favors that system so much that he wishes Duke was even more laid back and went with the Yale system.

 

[jash0624]

This sounds funny but I think yale is actually fairly non-cut-throat. The major exams are all anonymous anyway (at least for the first few years-dunno the deets exactly), so there isn't really insane pressure on you. You do have a few non-anonymous things but they're not huge tests or anything so there isn't super pressure there either.

I think most med schools try to not have everyone trying to backstab each other with the crazyness.

How exactly do "anonymous" exams work?

 

[Senor Fish]

My impression was that UCSF is non-competitive due to pass/fail.

 

[OB/GYN Sim]

I would have to say Stanford which has a pass/fail system implemented throughout all four years.

 

[45408]

How exactly do "anonymous" exams work?

I could be completely wrong, but someone posted before that you don't have to take the exams, and if you do, only you find out the grades.

 

[jash0624]

I could be completely wrong, but someone posted before that you don't have to take the exams, and if you do, only you find out the grades.

Then how are students evaluated? That seems a little risky for a school like Yale to play around with their students not passing the USMLE because they never bothered to check if they were learning.

 

[Dookter]

I could be completely wrong, but someone posted before that you don't have to take the exams, and if you do, only you find out the grades.

Yeah, I think this is how it works, but I am not positive. A classmate explained it to me, so I might not know what I am talking about. I think you have to pass the boards to graduate, so they give the exams so that you can check on your own progress.

 

[Misfit!]

HMS has no grades....
but I heard from a friend who goes there that everyone is so anal and uptight, that they would self destruct if they had to compete for grades.

 

[szhao]

HMS has no grades....
but I heard from a friend who goes there that everyone is so anal and uptight, that they would self destruct if they had to compete for grades.

lol sound like fun, this thread will self destruct in 5 seconds 5 4 3 2 1 .... not really. 😡

 

[brian30bulldog]

Medical College of GA seems like a pretty relaxed atmosphere and the students and faculty seem really nice. They all say it's not cut-throat at all and everyone helps each other out. That's the only one I've visited thus far, so I guess I can't really compare with other schools.

Yeah MCG is chill. We help each other out. For one example we post mnemonics and tips on WebCT. Profs are cool and student-friendly and encourage a non-competitive environment.

 

[kevster2001]

I think Feinberg is P/F only the first two years and the next two they rank you by quartiles rather numerically. All the med students I talked to there said it was a incredibly relaxed environment.

 

[tacrum43]

While this doesn't work every time, it's been a good rule of thumb for me. For example, an M2 at Georgetown was just telling me how she went to the library to read a textbook page that the professor said would be on the exam, only to find someone had torn that page out. They use a strict curve. Whereas my friend at GW, which uses the second grading style, always talks about how his classmates are happy to share notes.

I second this, on both statements.

 

[45408]

Then how are students evaluated? That seems a little risky for a school like Yale to play around with their students not passing the USMLE because they never bothered to check if they were learning.

I'm pretty sure that if you're smart enough to get into Yale, you're smart enough to know that you're wasting $100,000+ if you don't study.

 

[acf11]

My impression was that UCSF is non-competitive due to pass/fail.

I really got that impression when I interviewed there, too. Also with Stanford, the whole 4 years of pass/fail really seems to create an environment of collaboration rather than competition among students.

 

[Dookter]

Then how are students evaluated? That seems a little risky for a school like Yale to play around with their students not passing the USMLE because they never bothered to check if they were learning.

Some people purposely do not apply to Yale b/c they know they would not do the work in that sort of environment [some of my classmates included]. I would love it, I think, but it's definitely not for everyone.

 

[EaglesPA]

Then how are students evaluated? That seems a little risky for a school like Yale to play around with their students not passing the USMLE because they never bothered to check if they were learning.

From what I heard when I was applying, this is how it works:
During the first two years, you have a number that only you and the Dean's office knows. On the final exams for each class, you put your number on the exam instead of your name. If you pass the exam, then you remain anonymous. However, if you fail then the Dean is notified and will meet with you to take steps to correct this.
3rd year and 4th year is Honors/HighPass/Pass/Fail.
You have to be self-motivated to do well in that system but it is definitely low stress. They do just fine on the USMLE and their residency match list is on par with Hopkins or other top places so I guess their system works.

 

[jash0624]

I'm pretty sure that if you're smart enough to get into Yale, you're smart enough to know that you're wasting $100,000+ if you don't study.

Yes, you'd think so, but that's not always true. Smart doesn't always = self motivated. In college, some people are driven to do well by competition and they thrive. Then they go to Yale because of the name it brings and find that without competition, they are bums. It's hard to really know how motivated you are without competition until you are placed in a non-competitive environment with no gunners in sight.

 

[Cirrus83]

How exactly do "anonymous" exams work?

You have a code on the exam, and you keep the code. Then when they've been graded you just punch it into a website and it tells you what your grade is-so you know if you bombed it or aced it.

 

[Cirrus83]

I'm pretty sure that if you're smart enough to get into Yale, you're smart enough to know that you're wasting $100,000+ if you don't study.

Yeah I kinda just figured that they pretty much only let in people who are so hardcore that doing poorly on a test would disgust themselves so much that they could never really do it, lol.

The Yale student I was talking with was my high school valedictorian...and I went to the most competitive high school in the city... So while I don't know how she did in college, going by the fact that she managed to balance about 900 extra curriculars while having the highest grades at our school, I'd venture that she's the kind of person who would never really do poorly on a Yale medical school exam anyway.

At the end of the day they know that you know that you have to take the USMLE, so if you're the kinda person that they let in, you'd be very unlikely to just slack off.

Oh and I guess the tests are optional, but really only in the sense that uhh they're anonymous anyway so even if they were compulsory it wouldn't really change anything, you could just walk in, write gibberish and leave lol.

I wish I could go to Yale med, but then again I know I don't have a chance in hell, lol.

 

[deuce]

seems like schools that grade pass fail are less throaty then ?

At least years 1-2
UCSF
U Michigan
U Chicago
Northwestern
UVa
Yale
Harvard
Stanford

1 year
Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Columbia P&S

any others I have missed ?

 

[lilold3chordme]

seems like schools that grade pass fail are less throaty then ?

At least years 1-2
Albert Einstein
Case Western
Harvard
Mount Sinai
Northwestern
Stanford
UCSF
U Chicago
U Michigan
UVa
Yale

1 year
Columbia P&S
Vanderbilt
WUSTL

any others I have missed ?

 

[Falco2525]

seems like schools that grade pass fail are less throaty then ?

At least years 1-2
Albert Einstein
Case Western
Harvard
Mount Sinai
Northwestern
Stanford
UCSF
U Chicago
U Michigan
U Minnesota-TC
UVa
Yale

1 year
Columbia P&S
Vanderbilt
WUSTL

any others I have missed ?

 

[babaghannough]

does anyone know about how competitive tufts is? i don't think they're p/f so i would assume they're pretty competitive.

 

[DoctorPardi]

UAB recently became pass/fail. Everyone gets number grades on tests and assignments but all that matters is that you pass.

 

[snobored18]

any others I have missed ?

Mayo, it really may be the most "relaxed" medical school in the nation despite the fact there are no white coats and everyone can be seen during the day sporting suits and ties (only if they are in clinic, which seems to be a fairly large chunk of time). It is the smallest medical school in the nation and the size virtually eliminates any competition because the classes are so close-knit. The curriculum has been relaxed this year to decrease the amount of time in lecture and also to integrate more time for self-directed learning. Definitely the kind of place where you will see most of your classmates out on the weekend and people always share thier notes and study guides. Add the true pass/fail curriculum, leadership blocks and two week selective periods where everyone is free to whatever they want wherever they want to enhance their education and you really get an extremely relaxed, but absolutely fantastic experience.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Some of my friends attend Howard and Meharry and all I have ever heard about both of the schools is how much of a family atmosphere it is and how everybody is so supportive. There is nothing cut throat about those schools at all.

 

[lilold3chordme]

These schools are listed as having 2-level grading intervals for the basic science/pre-clinical years (translation: P/F). If P/F = non-cutthroat, then these are the non-cutthroat schools, at least for the 1st 2 years. [Note: does not include schools with 1 year of P/F like P&S, or schools with no exams like Yale]

For your searching pleasure: http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm


Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
Harvard Medical School
Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California
Loma Linda University School of Medicine
Mayo Medical School
McGill University Faculty of Medicine
Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty of Medicine
Mercer University School of Medicine
Morehouse School of Medicine
Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University
New York University School of Medicine
Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine
Stanford University School of Medicine
University of Alabama School of Medicine
University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine
University of California, Davis, School of Medicine
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine
University of Kentucky College of Medicine
University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine
University of Massachusetts Medical School
University of Michigan Medical School
University of Minnesota Medical School
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine
University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine
University of Utah School of Medicine
University of Virginia School of Medicine
University of Washington School of Medicine
Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine
Wright State University School of Medicine

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

These schools are listed as having 2-level grading intervals for the basic science/pre-clinical years (translation: P/F).

For your searching pleasure: http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

University of Washington School of Medicine

Sorry, 2nd year at UW is H/P/F.

 

[lilold3chordme]

Let's see if we can make a more accurate list than AAMC.

P/F for Years 1-2
Albert Einstein
Case Western
Harvard
Mount Sinai
Northwestern
Stanford
UAB
UCSF
U Chicago
U Michigan
U Minnesota-TC
UVa
Yale

P/F for Year 1
Columbia P&S
U Washington
Vanderbilt
WUSTL

 

[mmmkay121]

When I think of what schools have the happiest students, Mount Sinai and NYU jump out. First two years are Pass/Fail (UNRANKED too). Little to none of that PBL garbage. You can get lectures online or notes from others. NEW YORK CITY. No mandatory thesis or "scholarly project". The students there appeared to be really happy and I sensed no competition whatsoever.

 

[Falco2525]

Technically U Minnesota-TC is H/p/F ...although top 15% get honors at the end of the year so grades are only given as pass/fail from what i understand during the year

 

[Dimness]

I was under the impression that only students are cut-throat, not the schools themselves.

Having said that, it seems like the posts here are indicating that schools are not cut throat. But if there were to be cut throat schools, what are they?

 

[Teejay]

Obviously some schools are more "throaty" than others, and obviously for a variety of reasons places like Hopkins and Duke will - almost inevitably- be more intense experiences (tradition, curriculum, educational philosophy etc)..but what schools are succeeding in creating a balanced thoughtful sane but very solid academic environment for med students, that encourage socialization rather than competition between students, have a supportive administration, recognize that med students are people, and make some effort to put students interests/needs on a level with faculty's priorities url]http://img.studentdoctor.net/images/smilies/confused.gif[/url]
😕

Check out northwestern and UTMB.