non-desig preliminary general surgery

[punch]

Hi fellow SDNers,

I was hoping you guys can answer a little doubt i have.

I have turned in myERAS application and since i was only aiming at preliminary spots i have not selected cat surg positions on the ERAS app.

Is this unusual?

Besides, when do i expect my application to be reviewed since it is specifically for the non-desig prelim spots and not for the categ match?

Thank a ton for your time to reply.

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[Winged Scapula]

Are you applying for an Advanced Match as well? If not, may I ask why you chose to apply for NDP positions only?

Many programs leave Prelim position evaluations until the end; some programs don't even do formal interviews for them.

As for when you will hear, it is highly variable and there is no set answer.

 

[punch]

Hi WS,

thks for the reply. I am willing to pursue an advanced surgical residency which is not tied with a necessary prelim year, however, i would like to go through a prelim training before going to cat training in that specialty.
so i have only applied for prelim positions.

sounds strange? any more inputs greatly appreciated.

 

[navymd]

Who is advising you? Are you not a competitive candidate for a categorical position? Prelim spots are not usually a stepping stone to a categorical position in that program especially at some larger universities. Frequently prelims are not as strong as the designated prelims or categoricals in a program.

There is a felling among some PDs that someone applying not directly from medical school to surgery residency is tainted (whether it be a question of commitment, concern for being fatigued after an intern year, whatever).

What I am saying is your best chance to successfully match into a categorical spot is directly from school. If you are not sure you want to be a surgeon then do another rotation in med school or just do not do it. Surgery is grueling and you need to love it to be able to put in the effort.

 

[punch]

i am aiming at categorical orthopedics, but before that want to go through a prelim surgery year, nobody is advising me and hence i am in need of help here.

@commitment, fatigued, etc issues - wouldn't it be evident from the CV/PS and LORs that I am not confused about specialty selection and simply want to better the prospects by adding a prelim year to it?

 

[DrNick Riviera]

You do not better your chances by adding a prelim year. Especially for something as competitive as ortho, you will be tainted next year when you apply. Not only will it be difficult to get time off from your prelim year program to go and interview, but you will not be straight out of med school. This is a red flag to programs, regardless of what you are applying to. It is assumed that if you took a prelim year, it is because you could not get a categorical position somewhere, and programs know this. The only people who choose to take non-designated prelim positions are those people who have no idea what they want to do. If you want to do ortho, then apply to ortho programs. Apply to ALL of them if you think you are not a good candidate. Have prelim surg or categorical surg positions as backup.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You do not better your chances by adding a prelim year. Especially for something as competitive as ortho, you will be tainted next year when you apply. Not only will it be difficult to get time off from your prelim year program to go and interview, but you will not be straight out of med school. This is a red flag to programs, regardless of what you are applying to. It is assumed that if you took a prelim year, it is because you could not get a categorical position somewhere, and programs know this. The only people who choose to take non-designated prelim positions are those people who have no idea what they want to do. If you want to do ortho, then apply to ortho programs. Apply to ALL of them if you think you are not a good candidate. Have prelim surg or categorical surg positions as backup.

This is accurate and good advice (as is all the above) to the OP.

Apply widely to ortho, with general surgery as a back up, leaving prelim NDP gs for last. A NDP position will not strengthen your application and right or wrong, you will be seen as tainted goods.

I take it you are an IMG/FMG - in that case, you need a Plan B as Ortho is extremely competitive. A NDP is not a PLAN, but rather a forced contingency.

 

[punch]

yes DNR and WS i am an IMG.

what should be the back up plan if i only want to do Ortho and nothing else?

Is having NDP as a back up(?) too bad??

Besides, I see NDP as a very significant US clinical experience for any IMG, is that looked upon as wrong/ tainted even for foreign grads who are struggling to get in the system?

I am still wondering when would they review the prelim applications?

 

[Buzz Me]

yes DNR and WS i am an IMG.

what should be the back up plan if i only want to do Ortho and nothing else?

Know that many well-qualified AMGs apply to every single Ortho program in the country - that's even with 2-3 away rotations. That's how competitive it can be.

 

[Smurfette]

yes DNR and WS i am an IMG.

what should be the back up plan if i only want to do Ortho and nothing else?

Is having NDP as a back up(?) too bad??

Besides, I see NDP as a very significant US clinical experience for any IMG, is that looked upon as wrong/ tainted even for foreign grads who are struggling to get in the system?

I am still wondering when would they review the prelim applications?

A better question for you is: if after your NDP year, you don't get an ortho spot, what will you do? What is the alternative specialty you would go into? If the answer is none, then you are unprepared for the realities of the match.

Ortho is very competitive, and especially difficult for an IMG to obtain a spot. It's not impossible, but your odds are very low, especially after taking a year for a NDP. I've seen many good, quality AMGs be unsuccessful at getting an ortho spot. Like Buzz said, many ortho applicants apply to every single program and still don't match.

As others have said, NDP is generally the back-up plan for people applying to surgical fields. While it's not "bad" to do one, doing one effectively tells programs you apply to "I didn't match last year", which makes them question why you didn't match---a potential red flag. It is a way to get US experience, but it in no way guarantees that you will have a job after the year is over.

 

[punch]

I do have a realistic orientation to the competitiveness of this highly coveted specialty. I hope i could elaborate this better.

about the next step in case of not matching to categorical ortho after a year of NDP will be to do a prelim year again or go for a research year in ortho or go back home and continue training there.

makes sense?

 

[Mac4]

Reserach year is probably a better option than Prelim.

 

[punch]

Reserach year is probably a better option than Prelim.

would you please elaborate on this?

thanks.

 

[SLUser11]

I do have a realistic orientation to the competitiveness of this highly coveted specialty. I hope i could elaborate this better.

about the next step in case of not matching to categorical ortho after a year of NDP will be to do a prelim year again or go for a research year in ortho or go back home and continue training there.

makes sense?

If you are an IMG, and you have no clinical experience in the US, you have a nearly zero percent chance of matching into orthopedics. To even try is pretty much a waste of time. A prelim year is unlikely to improve your odds of matching. I'm sorry.

I disagree with doing a research year. You should try to find a clinical spot somewhere, and then decide what other specialties could make you happy.

 

[pimoa]

Are you applying for an Advanced Match as well? If not, may I ask why you chose to apply for NDP positions only?

Many programs leave Prelim position evaluations until the end; some programs don't even do formal interviews for them.

As for when you will hear, it is highly variable and there is no set answer.

I am sorry for coming here abruptly,but I had some queries on this above post(I came across it while searching for my question).I am a US IMG,have applied(widely) for both prelim and catgorical.I have received just 3 calls till now.I was expecting a few more prelim calls,but your post suggests that they may take a while.
1.When would you suggest would be a good time to followup with the programs,esp about the prelim calls.I recall it being mentioned in another thread that I might want to start on it around November end,but just wanted to clarify.
2.I have heard(and read) time and again that prelim spots, even at university programs are not that hard to get ,but I just wanted to clarify on that(since I have not received many till now).

3.Also,since you mentioned it,it would be great if you could clarify on 'some programs do not even do formal interviews for them.I did not understand it.Are all these positions given post match then?
Even though I want to match into Gen Surg,I know the route in almost inevitably via a prelim,that is via the concern to get atleast prelim interviews🙂
Thank you,

 

[Dirt]

I am sorry for coming here abruptly,but I had some queries on this above post(I came across it while searching for my question).I am a US IMG,have applied(widely) for both prelim and catgorical.I have received just 3 calls till now.I was expecting a few more prelim calls,but your post suggests that they may take a while.
1.When would you suggest would be a good time to followup with the programs,esp about the prelim calls.I recall it being mentioned in another thread that I might want to start on it around November end,but just wanted to clarify.
2.I have heard(and read) time and again that prelim spots, even at university programs are not that hard to get ,but I just wanted to clarify on that(since I have not received many till now).

3.Also,since you mentioned it,it would be great if you could clarify on 'some programs do not even do formal interviews for them.I did not understand it.Are all these positions given post match then?
Even though I want to match into Gen Surg,I know the route in almost inevitably via a prelim,that is via the concern to get atleast prelim interviews🙂
Thank you,

1. Not sure what you mean by "follow up" with programs re: "calls". If you are referring to interview offers for preliminary spots, you should take them up on it asap.

2. Prelim programs are often not competitive, even at certain prestigious places. The reason for this is that they are dead end positions. In the eyes of a program, they are just a warm body to fill their ranks for the year. As such, I assume they are focusing their energy on filling categorical spots. Which brings me to...

3. Many, many programs have traditionally not had any formal interview process for prelim spots and just filled them in the scramble. With the SOAP being implemented this year I am not sure if they will still do this or just try to fill them after they have made their categorical list.



My personal advice - A non-designated prelim spot is not a "plan", nor is it a good backup "plan". What it is is a last resort. I realize that approaching this process as an IMG is a whole different ball game, but if I were in that position I would focus on getting a categorical spot in anything before I took a prelim surgery position. And that is coming from someone going into surgery who has a hard time imagining doing something else.

 

[pimoa]

1. Not sure what you mean by "follow up" with programs re: "calls". If you are referring to interview offers for preliminary spots, you should take them up on it asap.

2. Prelim programs are often not competitive, even at certain prestigious places. The reason for this is that they are dead end positions. In the eyes of a program, they are just a warm body to fill their ranks for the year. As such, I assume they are focusing their energy on filling categorical spots. Which brings me to...

3. Many, many programs have traditionally not had any formal interview process for prelim spots and just filled them in the scramble. With the SOAP being implemented this year I am not sure if they will still do this or just try to fill them after they have made their categorical list.



My personal advice - A non-designated prelim spot is not a "plan", nor is it a good backup "plan". What it is is a last resort. I realize that approaching this process as an IMG is a whole different ball game, but if I were in that position I would focus on getting a categorical spot in anything before I took a prelim surgery position. And that is coming from someone going into surgery who has a hard time imagining doing something else.

By following up I meant, calling/emailing the program(that I haven't heard from) and telling them I am interested in them.
Would you advise me to follow up for prelim, so as to secure an interview from the hospitals?Or wait for SOAP?That way, maybe I can secure a prelim in a good university?
I concur with your advice.However, try as I might, the prelim option stares me in the face.I do have a competitive CV but I have heard that in all probability I would end up doing it.And if I have to choose between some other field and prelim,I would pick prelim🙂

 

[Smurfette]

By following up I meant, calling/emailing the program(that I haven't heard from) and telling them I am interested in them.
Would you advise me to follow up for prelim, so as to secure an interview from the hospitals?Or wait for SOAP?That way, maybe I can secure a prelim in a good university?
I concur with your advice.However, try as I might, the prelim option stares me in the face.I do have a competitive CV but I have heard that in all probability I would end up doing it.And if I have to choose between some other field and prelim,I would pick prelim🙂

I'm confused...I thought you were applying for psych? Are you applying to multiple unrelated specialties?

 

[pimoa]

I'm confused...I thought you were applying for psych? Are you applying to multiple unrelated specialties?

Sorry, that was my girlfriend who had hacked into my account that time🙂.She is applying for psych.I am sorry for the confusion.