Non-scientific, pseudoscientific, nonsensical, or seemingly cashing-in-on-a-popular-treatment CE examples

[DynamicDidactic]

Anyone want to have a thread where we post examples CE programs that are likely not scientific or appear to cash in on a trend? I'll start with something that came to my home the other day:

pesi.com/webcast/85587

Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFT) and Tapping: Evidence-Based, Mind-Body Treatment Approach to the Anxiety Spectrum Disorders and Pain

Yes, the same stuff treats ASD also treats pain. What stuff? Oh, tapping on the meridian points on your body. Eureka!

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh man, I just threw away like 4 mailed PESI flyers the other day, would have had a few examples for this thread.

 

[ExecutiveDysfunction]

Posting PESI trainings should be cheating. My wife made the mistake of giving her info just to see what PESI had available (not even attend) and we get a few crazy ones per week.

 

[R. Matey]

It might be cheating, but this one is too good not to post. Tossed it out a few days ago

Pet Loss Grief Counseling Trained Professional | PESI

Add a new dimension to your practice as a Pet Loss Grief Counseling Trained Professional through completing this course.

catalog.pesi.com

 

[WisNeuro]

It might be cheating, but this one is too good not to post. Tossed it out a few days ago

Pet Loss Grief Counseling Trained Professional | PESI

Add a new dimension to your practice as a Pet Loss Grief Counseling Trained Professional through completing this course.

catalog.pesi.com

I mean, I'm all about de-stigmatizing MH, but at what point are we just infantilizing people?

 

[ExecutiveDysfunction]

Superhero Therapy for Women Battling Anxiety, Depression and Trauma

“Dramatic,” “crazy,” “overly emotional” – these are just some of the ways in which women have been described when simply expressing their needs and feelings. As result, many women might suppress their emotions, as well as their own voices. Numerous empirical studies demonstrate the evidence of...

app.ce-go.com

Just got this one.

 

[R. Matey]

I mean, I'm all about de-stigmatizing MH, but at what point are we just infantilizing people?

Oh, I'm pretty sure the field jumped the shark on that one with emotional support animals.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It might be cheating, but this one is too good not to post. Tossed it out a few days ago

Pet Loss Grief Counseling Trained Professional | PESI

Add a new dimension to your practice as a Pet Loss Grief Counseling Trained Professional through completing this course.

catalog.pesi.com

$219??? WTF?

 

[R. Matey]

$219??? WTF?

But the trainer was a vet tech! You gotta pay for that level of expertise.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Superhero Therapy for Women Battling Anxiety, Depression and Trauma

“Dramatic,” “crazy,” “overly emotional” – these are just some of the ways in which women have been described when simply expressing their needs and feelings. As result, many women might suppress their emotions, as well as their own voices. Numerous empirical studies demonstrate the evidence of...

app.ce-go.com

Just got this one.

In addition, she has authored Superhero Therapy, Harry Potter Therapy, Therapy Quest, Dark Agents, Super-Women, as well as numerous contributions to the Psych Geeks Books Series, such as Star Wars Psychology, Star Trek Psychology, Wonder Woman Psychology, Supernatural Psychology and many others.

Am I old? What is all this stuff?

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I mean, I'm all about de-stigmatizing MH, but at what point are we just infantilizing people?

To be fair anecdotally, the worst loss I've experienced from a grief perspective was that of my 15 year-old pup. Unequivocally the worst. And I've lost quite a few very close adult family members. However, there's some solid work being done in the grief literature related to pet loss and potential application to EBT's, which I doubt the vet tech in this workshop has access to

 

[WisNeuro]

To be fair anecdotally, the worst loss I've experienced from a grief perspective was that of my 15 year-old pup. Unequivocally the worst. And I've lost quite a few very close adult family members. However, there's some solid work being done in the grief literature related to pet loss and potential application to EBT's, which I doubt the vet tech in this workshop has access to

Hmm, maybe my background as a country/farm kid inured me to the death of animals. Finding dead people bodies was way more traumatic than finding dead animal bodies IME.

 

[futureapppsy2]

To be fair anecdotally, the worst loss I've experienced from a grief perspective was that of my 15 year-old pup. Unequivocally the worst. And I've lost quite a few very close adult family members. However, there's some solid work being done in the grief literature related to pet loss and potential application to EBT's, which I doubt the vet tech in this workshop has access to

Agreed; pet-related grief is a legitimate thing and can be a clinical concern, and this workshop probably ain't it or worth anywhere close to $219.

 

[Sanman]

Unfortunately for me, NY state in their infinite wisdom (seeing a chance to line their pockets) only accepts NY state approved CE vendors. This list does include PESI, but not the APA or the Dept of Veterans Affairs. So, I see garbage CEs in my future.

 

[R. Matey]

To be fair anecdotally, the worst loss I've experienced from a grief perspective was that of my 15 year-old pup. Unequivocally the worst. And I've lost quite a few very close adult family members. However, there's some solid work being done in the grief literature related to pet loss and potential application to EBT's, which I doubt the vet tech in this workshop has access to

Curious how folks view it as separate than any other form of grief as if the object of grief somehow dictates the reaction rather than perceived closeness. I saw folks at the UCC experience grief at pet loss and seemed to respond to standard grief counseling. To me, that's what makes this training snake oil.

 

[MCParent]

Anyone want to have a thread where we post examples CE programs that are likely not scientific or appear to cash in on a trend? I'll start with something that came to my home the other day:

pesi.com/webcast/85587


Yes, the same stuff treats ASD also treats pain. What stuff? Oh, tapping on the meridian points on your body. Eureka!

​

​

Saw the thread and came to post EFT stuff. Guess it's everywhere.
I know it's unethical do DO the bunk treatment. Is it ok to make up something bat**** and sell it to these providers without doing it myself? Cuz man that seems to be a way to just rake it in.
(jk, obviously, I'm perfectly happy doing and teaching my empirically based treatments)

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Is it ok to make up something bat**** and sell it to these providers without doing it myself? Cuz man that seems to be a way to just rake it in.

Oh so you must be talking about my new groundbreaking Natural Light (aka 'Natty Light') treatment? Depending on who you are the mechanism of action is shotgunning cans booze or getting sent out to live in the woods for a weekend. $500 for the manual.

 

[MCParent]

Oh so you must be talking about my new groundbreaking Natural Light (aka 'Natty Light') treatment? Depending on who you are the mechanism of action is shotgunning cans booze or getting sent out to live in the woods for a weekend. $500 for the manual.

When I teach research methods I use “puppy pile therapy” (cbt but you lay on the floor during it and puppies play on you) vs no tx control as an example of how poorly designed studies can show “effectiveness” of baloney treatments.

but uh now thinking maybe I should copyright it instead.

 

[Sanman]

When I teach research methods I use “puppy pile therapy” (cbt but you lay on the floor during it and puppies play on you) vs no tx control as an example of how poorly designed studies can show “effectiveness” of baloney treatments.

but uh now thinking maybe I should copyright it instead.

You should, I would love for my health insurance to cover me playing with puppies (though my dog will be mad when I get home). I'll skip all that CBT nonsense though...that will be less fun.

 

[MiniLop]

When I teach research methods I use “puppy pile therapy” (cbt but you lay on the floor during it and puppies play on you) vs no tx control as an example of how poorly designed studies can show “effectiveness” of baloney treatments.

but uh now thinking maybe I should copyright it instead.

I will happily pay whatever you're charging.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Before you all go signing up for MCP's Puppy PIle therapy, you might want to check the research literature on the Rescorla-Wagner effect and stimulus blocking, particular if you are hoping those puppy's can help with anxiety. Turns out that the salience of their overwhelming cuteness would likely conuteract any effects of the CBT. Still, it'd be fun and you'd feel good for a few minutes- Isn't that what it's all about?

 

[MiniLop]

Before you all go signing up for MCP's Puppy PIle therapy, you might want to check the research literature on the Rescorla-Wagner effect and stimulus blocking, particular if you are hoping those puppy's can help with anxiety. Turns out that the salience of their overwhelming cuteness would likely conuteract any effects of the CBT. Still, it'd be fun and you'd feel good for a few minutes- Isn't that what it's all about?

Did you say something? All I heard was "overwhelming cuteness."

 

[ClinicalABA]

Did you say something? All I heard was "overwhelming cuteness."

EXACTLY!

 

[MCParent]

Before you all go signing up for MCP's Puppy PIle therapy, you might want to check the research literature on the Rescorla-Wagner effect and stimulus blocking, particular if you are hoping those puppy's can help with anxiety. Turns out that the salience of their overwhelming cuteness would likely conuteract any effects of the CBT. Still, it'd be fun and you'd feel good for a few minutes- Isn't that what it's all about?

BUT THE TRIAL SAID IT WAS BETTER THAN THE CONTROL*!

*No treatment wait list and we texted them daily to tell them they're ugly.

 

[MAClinician]

Pre-Covid a few colleges brought puppies onto campus the week of finals for stress management. Looks like you got beat 😂

 

[PsyDr]

…and we texted them daily to tell them they're ugly.

 

[cara susanna]

Honestly, it stands out to me more when I get a PESI brochure that's for an empirically validated treatment.

 

[bookwormpsych]

I'm attending a PESI webinar next week, but it seemed to be okay to me. It's a "Alzheimer's, Dementias and Geriatric Mental Health Conditions" "certification" course. I don't much care about the certification but it offers 12.5 CEUs, and appears to be presented by a respectable individual who specializes in this area, and is a faculty member at Michigan State.

Is it just the norm that PESI offers bunk trainings? Do they also offer good trainings? I just wonder because I've never heard of them until my supervisor gave me the brochure for this training, it looked to check out an be decent to me.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm attending a PESI webinar next week, but it seemed to be okay to me. It's a "Alzheimer's, Dementias and Geriatric Mental Health Conditions" "certification" course. I don't much care about the certification but it offers 12.5 CEUs, and appears to be presented by a respectable individual who specializes in this area, and is a faculty member at Michigan State.

Is it just the norm that PESI offers bunk trainings? Do they also offer good trainings? I just wonder because I've never heard of them until my supervisor gave me the brochure for this training, it looked to check out an be decent to me.

They do have some quality trainings, but that have A LOT of trainings that are very clearly pseudoscience. Also, I was curious and looked up that course, and, as a clinician who works primarily with dementia, I have never heard of that certification.

 

[bookwormpsych]

They do have some quality trainings, but that have A LOT of trainings that are very clearly pseudoscience. Also, I was curious and looked up that course, and, as a clinician who works primarily with dementia, I have never heard of that certification.

The certification just seems weird to me. "Certified Dementia Care Specialist" and the bar to reach is that you get X amount of CEUs for it, apparently. When I saw that, I also found a looooot of other "certifications" on Google that seem strange to me. They all read (to me at least) as a money grab.

I don't care about the cert, though, just the CEU credits, quality of training, and the topic. My hope is that the training is worth it, though

 

[Sanman]

I looked at that one as well. I didn't do it as their grief summit was free for similar CEUs. Just got an email that VA EES is now an NY state CEU provider, so may not end up needing to do so. However, I was also curious if it is worth doing.

 

[cara susanna]

I attended a BPD training through PESI that was good but, honestly, felt a little outdated.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

More advertisements sent to my house.

PESI offering Hypnosis for Trauma & PTSD with buzzwords like mind/body and neuroscience.

A different one to become a certified clinical trauma professional, whatever that means.

 

[WisNeuro]

More advertisements sent to my house.

PESI offering Hypnosis for Trauma & PTSD with buzzwords like mind/body and neuroscience.

A different one to become a certified clinical trauma professional, whatever that means.

I've been getting this a lot lately. F that noise, I was trained by Foa's people, I'm good.

 

[Temperance]

and become a certified clinical trauma professional, whatever that means.

It looks like the requirements are 12 hours of CEs in trauma assessment and treatment (list of topics). That doesn't seem like a sufficient amount of time to be calling oneself a trauma expert?

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Do trainings like these explain why some clinician's will put essentially everything and the kitchen sink under their "areas of expertise" ? People just go to them and then say they are experts?

 

[WisNeuro]

Do trainings like these explain why some clinician's will put essentially everything and the kitchen sink under their "areas of expertise" ? People just go to them and then say they are experts?

Probably part of it. I also see a strong correlation between diploma millers and having an extensive amount of "expertise" content areas. Not much of a surprise as these people are never trained to know what they don't know. Diploma mills are Dunning-Kruger in practice.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm always amazed when I review websites of people who are "experts" in treating adults and children with depression, anxiety, autism, adhd, behavioral health, coping with grief or illness, substance use, trauma, marital therapy, family therapy and usually something super-weirdly-specific ("depression in older adults with recently developed seizure disorders experiencing grief related to newly onset cancer of a child between the ages of 30 and 40") that I assume was the topic of the case study that served as their dissertation and probably the only thing remotely close to an actual expertise.

These people and I certainly define "expert" differently. I wonder if they would pass a surprise test of the DSM criteria for all the disorders? While I realize our licensure laws imply otherwise, I doubt it is possible to be even maintain the minimal level of competence I'd consider necessary to ethically practice across all those categories.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm always amazed when I review websites of people who are "experts" in treating adults and children with depression, anxiety, autism, adhd, behavioral health, coping with grief or illness, substance use, trauma, marital therapy, family therapy and usually something super-weirdly-specific ("depression in older adults with recently developed seizure disorders experiencing grief related to newly onset cancer of a child between the ages of 30 and 40") that I assume was the topic of the case study that served as their dissertation and probably the only thing remotely close to an actual expertise.

These people and I certainly define "expert" differently. I wonder if they would pass a surprise test of the DSM criteria for all the disorders? While I realize our licensure laws imply otherwise, I doubt it is possible to be even maintain the minimal level of competence I'd consider necessary to ethically practice across all those categories.

Yeah, when I see people advertising that they see ages 2-110, and then list off about 30 specialties, I'm curious what those people would do if ever brought up for a board complaint and had to justify their expertise in a certain area. Heck, I worked on an epilepsy monitoring unit for a year during postdoc and I still wouldn't consider myself an epilepsy specialist, but I don't doubt a person like this would do an online 1 hour CE and happily list that on their profile.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I do one thing good, and even on some days I question myself. And then I am ok (aka meeting the standard of care) for a few other things. So when I see these websites, I often am left wondering if I missed the boat on being an expert in all things.

 

[Sanman]

I do one thing good, and even on some days I question myself. And then I am ok (aka meeting the standard of care) for a few other things. So when I see these websites, I often am left wondering if I missed the boat on being an expert in all things.

Agreed. I think this issues often comes back to training views on the word expertise. I am an well-versed in a dissertation area, but certainly could name some national bigwigs who know that area much better. Clinically, I have expertise in geriatrics and there is still much to learn after a decade of doing this. However, for a lot of people who have never known the depth of knowledge that can be achieved, having a passing familiarity is expertise.

I have seen this in many areas of life. I frequently run into car "experts" that claim to know a lot because they purchased a new BMW from the dealership and in their social circle, no one else knows where the engine is located. Then there is Jay Leno, who with the help of his staff, is restoring rare Duesenberg's in his spare time and calls a guy who knows what seat fabrics were used in 1926 for that car. Completely different level of knowledge and the former can barely contemplate that the latter exists.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

I've also found that in areas with a dearth of varied providers/expertise, there's a lot more pressure to go by with less. So the PhD next door who did one rotation in SUD is suddenly the expert compared to no one within 200 miles ever seeing a single case.

 

[clausewitz2]

Yeah, when I see people advertising that they see ages 2-110, and then list off about 30 specialties, I'm curious what those people would do if ever brought up for a board complaint and had to justify their expertise in a certain area. Heck, I worked on an epilepsy monitoring unit for a year during postdoc and I still wouldn't consider myself an epilepsy specialist, but I don't doubt a person like this would do an online 1 hour CE and happily list that on their profile.

When I am advising people on what to look for in a therapist, I of course point them to Psychology Today with the caveat: "There are some people on there who claim specialize in 20 or 30 areas. They don't." Honestly I tell them probably better to go with someone initially who seems simpatico and more focused on what they claim to be good at treating even if the patient's particular concerns are partially outside this area of expertise, because that person's judgment and commitment to doing things right is probably much better than the pluripotent therapist.

 

[WisNeuro]

When I am advising people on what to look for in a therapist, I of course point them to Psychology Today with the caveat: "There are some people on there who claim specialize in 20 or 30 areas. They don't." Honestly I tell them probably better to go with someone initially who seems simpatico and more focused on what they claim to be good at treating even if the patient's particular concerns are partially outside this area of expertise, because that person's judgment and commitment to doing things right is probably much better than the pluripotent therapist.

Yeah, it's mind-boggling what people think that they can do. I'll concede that anyone well trained in a major modality should be able to treat general anxiety, depression, etc, but when you get to things like trauma, eating disorders, and some other areas, you really do need specialized training and specific supervision/consultation to truly be competent in those areas.

 

[Sanman]

I've also found that in areas with a dearth of varied providers/expertise, there's a lot more pressure to go by with less. So the PhD next door who did one rotation in SUD is suddenly the expert compared to no one within 200 miles ever seeing a single case.

True. However, it does not mean one was competent in that rotation or that they know what they are doing. The bigger issue I find is one of credential inflation, particularly for midlevel providers. I understand why. In the counties I currently serve (suburban to rural), there are 5-6 pages of therapists, exactly 2 licensed clinical psychologists, and exactly 1 person who listed either CPT or PE of all of those (was looking for a referral for a vet I see). The rest are mid levels with 30 specialties listed and at least two certifications. Many of them are full and not accepting clients. People don't want to travel to the city and are happy to try anything. One a scale of nationally renowned specialist to Instagram life coach, this is somewhere in the middle.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

True. However, it does not mean one was competent in that rotation or that they know what they are doing. The bigger issue I find is one of credential inflation, particularly for midlevel providers. I understand why. In the counties I currently serve (suburban to rural), there are 5-6 pages of therapists, exactly 2 licensed clinical psychologists, and exactly 1 person who listed either CPT or PE of all of those (was looking for a referral for a vet I see). The rest are mid levels with 30 specialties listed and at least two certifications. Many of them are full and not accepting clients. People don't want to travel to the city and are happy to try anything. One a scale of nationally renowned specialist to Instagram life coach, this is somewhere in the middle.

Oh definitely. It's pretty frustrating to try to explain to someone that just because I'm better than the crackpot selling snake oil and finger waving next door does not mean it's ethical for me to treat a specialty area I have little experience in.

 

[R. Matey]

Yeah, it's mind-boggling what people think that they can do. I'll concede that anyone well trained in a major modality should be able to treat general anxiety, depression, etc, but when you get to things like trauma, eating disorders, and some other areas, you really do need specialized training and specific supervision/consultation to truly be competent in those areas.

It sort've depends though, yeah? Some PTSD cases are more straightforward than others and respond fine to PE/CPT protocols without complication while ego-syntonic depression won't likely respond to CT/ACT, but fairs better with BA and/or IPT (at least that's been my experience). ARED and mild cases of bulimia usually can be treated in an outpatient setting with the so-called "basics" of CBT and MI provided you know something about eating disorder treatment, but you probably need specialized treatment for more severe presentations of Bulimia and Anorexia.

I think there is a place for ethical generalist practice, but it depends on the generalist. Most generalists I've encountered are master's level clinicians who have significantly less training than your average psychologist. For psychologists, I think it is possible to be trained well in a few modalities and apply them as the situation calls. The problem I've encountered thus far is most folks stop (or they never started) reading new developments in the field and seeking out consultation to further develop themselves.

 

[PsyDr]

Technically, we all have the same expertise in unscientific treatments.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

It sort've depends though, yeah? Some PTSD cases are more straightforward than others and respond fine to PE/CPT protocols without complication while ego-syntonic depression won't likely respond to CT/ACT, but fairs better with BA and/or IPT (at least that's been my experience). ARED and mild cases of bulimia usually can be treated in an outpatient setting with the so-called "basics" of CBT and MI provided you know something about eating disorder treatment, but you probably need specialized treatment for more severe presentations of Bulimia and Anorexia.

I think there is a place for ethical generalist practice, but it depends on the generalist. Most generalists I've encountered are master's level clinicians who have significantly less training than your average psychologist. For psychologists, I think it is possible to be trained well in a few modalities and apply them as the situation calls. The problem I've encountered thus far is most folks stop (or they never started) reading new developments in the field and seeking out consultation to further develop themselves.

My concern with this is that it can be applied very broadly and can actually result in a net negative. For example, I may have been trained in MET for alcohol use, but that was 5+ years ago and I have not been immersed in that field/literature since even with that foundation. Sure, I might do better than the diploma mill student next door, but there's also a possibility that this is a more complicated case, I'm not up to date on the nuances of the treatment/population beyond didactic, etc. A big danger then, if I don't do any obvious harm, is that treatment doesn't work. And now Mr. Joe doesn't believe therapy works and won't try anything again for 10 years.

 

[WisNeuro]

It sort've depends though, yeah? Some PTSD cases are more straightforward than others and respond fine to PE/CPT protocols without complication while ego-syntonic depression won't likely respond to CT/ACT, but fairs better with BA and/or IPT (at least that's been my experience). ARED and mild cases of bulimia usually can be treated in an outpatient setting with the so-called "basics" of CBT and MI provided you know something about eating disorder treatment, but you probably need specialized treatment for more severe presentations of Bulimia and Anorexia.

I think there is a place for ethical generalist practice, but it depends on the generalist. Most generalists I've encountered are master's level clinicians who have significantly less training than your average psychologist. For psychologists, I think it is possible to be trained well in a few modalities and apply them as the situation calls. The problem I've encountered thus far is most folks stop (or they never started) reading new developments in the field and seeking out consultation to further develop themselves.

If people haven't had specific training and supervision in PE/CPT protocols, my opinion is that they should not be delivering those treatments. Having done a lot of trauma and PTSD work over the years, I'd say that the "straightforward" cases are the exception and not the rule, and many cases that seem straightforward, turn out to be fairly complicated. And, for liability reasons, I would not treat eating disorder cases without specific training as there is a higher overlap with medical complications as a result of the disorder(s).