Non-supportive PI?

[bluegrass_druid]

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I walked into my PI's office yesterday to inform him that I will be accepting my MD/PhD offer at OHSU this year, and will be ending my employment with him in 7 weeks as a result. The offer was just made to me on Monday, I decided on Wednesday to accept it...and told him Thursday, which I felt was the most respectful way to handle the situation. The first words out of his mouth were, "this really sucks!" To make a long story short, he got very, very angry and laid the heaviest guilt trip on me I have ever experienced. He called me immature, irresponsible, ungrateful, and unaccountable. His 2 main reasons were that I was flaking on a project that I said I was committed to finishing, and that I owe him for being so helpful during my application process. I cannot fully deny either of those claims, as I did intend to finish the project and he was certainly a valuable advisor on my applications (wrote me an LOR, critiqued my essay, offered advice). I left his office feeling absolutely horrible about myself and very disappointed in my boss, especially since I respected him so much. I never intended to step on any toes or hurt anyone; I simply was doing what I believed was best for me. I think he responded very childishly...today he can barely look at me and didn't even say hello.

Background: I applied this year with the intent of deferring my matriculation until 2006. My applications were not as successful as my advisors or I had anticipated, and I only interviewed at 3 places, 2 of which waitlisted me, and the third just accepted me on Monday. Luckily, OHSU was one of my top choices (probably 2nd or 3rd), so I am very happy with the offer. Unfortunately, deferral is not an option at OHSU, so I was put in a difficult situation of declining and reapplying (thus finishing my project and, in theory, starting school in 2006--if I got in) or accepting this offer. I chose to accept, a decision that my friends, family, and many on this board supported.

I would like to hear what others' thoughts are...especially if anyone has been through a similar experience.

 

[fyli260]

I walked into my PI's office yesterday to inform him that I will be accepting my MD/PhD offer at OHSU this year, and will be ending my employment with him in 7 weeks as a result. The offer was just made to me on Monday, I decided on Wednesday to accept it...and told him Thursday, which I felt was the most respectful way to handle the situation. The first words out of his mouth were, "this really sucks!" To make a long story short, he got very, very angry and laid the heaviest guilt trip on me I have ever experienced. He called me immature, irresponsible, ungrateful, and unaccountable. His 2 main reasons were that I was flaking on a project that I said I was committed to finishing, and that I owe him for being so helpful during my application process. I cannot fully deny either of those claims, as I did intend to finish the project and he was certainly a valuable advisor on my applications (wrote me an LOR, critiqued my essay, offered advice). I left his office feeling absolutely horrible about myself and very disappointed in my boss, especially since I respected him so much. I never intended to step on any toes or hurt anyone; I simply was doing what I believed was best for me. I think he responded very childishly...today he can barely look at me and didn't even say hello.

Background: I applied this year with the intent of deferring my matriculation until 2006. My applications were not as successful as my advisors or I had anticipated, and I only interviewed at 3 places, 2 of which waitlisted me, and the third just accepted me on Monday. Luckily, OHSU was one of my top choices (probably 2nd or 3rd), so I am very happy with the offer. Unfortunately, deferral is not an option at OHSU, so I was put in a difficult situation of declining and reapplying (thus finishing my project and, in theory, starting school in 2006--if I got in) or accepting this offer. I chose to accept, a decision that my friends, family, and many on this board supported.

I would like to hear what others' thoughts are...especially if anyone has been through a similar experience.

A research assistant in my lab had a similar situation. She initially intend to matriculate at a graduate program at my school and stay in her current lab for her thesis work. She realized after her interviews that she would really rather be in another graduate program that's much better for what she wanted to do and has a better living environment for her. My PI was really mean to her about it when she told him her decision to leave the lab. I supported her decision. I think my PI was being very inconsiderate and selfish. In the end, you have to do what you think is best for yourself. Your PI needs to realize how hard it was for you to get this opportunity, and that you may never get a second chance again. I don't think you need to feel bad about your decision at all. Your PI should realize that you have already considered the option of deferring, but you don't have that option. Go on and move on with your life. Your future career is much more important than helping your PI get another paper.

 

[paramus]

I walked into my PI's office yesterday to inform him that I will be accepting my MD/PhD offer at OHSU this year, and will be ending my employment with him in 7 weeks as a result. The offer was just made to me on Monday, I decided on Wednesday to accept it...and told him Thursday, which I felt was the most respectful way to handle the situation. The first words out of his mouth were, "this really sucks!" To make a long story short, he got very, very angry and laid the heaviest guilt trip on me I have ever experienced. He called me immature, irresponsible, ungrateful, and unaccountable. His 2 main reasons were that I was flaking on a project that I said I was committed to finishing, and that I owe him for being so helpful during my application process. I cannot fully deny either of those claims, as I did intend to finish the project and he was certainly a valuable advisor on my applications (wrote me an LOR, critiqued my essay, offered advice). I left his office feeling absolutely horrible about myself and very disappointed in my boss, especially since I respected him so much. I never intended to step on any toes or hurt anyone; I simply was doing what I believed was best for me. I think he responded very childishly...today he can barely look at me and didn't even say hello.

Background: I applied this year with the intent of deferring my matriculation until 2006. My applications were not as successful as my advisors or I had anticipated, and I only interviewed at 3 places, 2 of which waitlisted me, and the third just accepted me on Monday. Luckily, OHSU was one of my top choices (probably 2nd or 3rd), so I am very happy with the offer. Unfortunately, deferral is not an option at OHSU, so I was put in a difficult situation of declining and reapplying (thus finishing my project and, in theory, starting school in 2006--if I got in) or accepting this offer. I chose to accept, a decision that my friends, family, and many on this board supported.

I would like to hear what others' thoughts are...especially if anyone has been through a similar experience.

My first thought: your advisor is evil. It is not unreasonable at all to expect him to understand your predicament and why you have to go. Maybe he was just having a bad day. Try not to let it both you.

 

[javert]

In the end, you have to do what you think is best for yourself. Your PI needs to realize how hard it was for you to get this opportunity, and that you may never get a second chance again. I don't think you need to feel bad about your decision at all. Your PI should realize that you have already considered the option of deferring, but you don't have that option. Go on and move on with your life. Your future career is much more important than helping your PI get another paper.

I completely agree with this. While you definately don't want to try to burn any bridges this early in your career, it's not your fault in this situation. He is being completely unreasonable (assuming, of course, that you didn't make a sworn promise that there was no possibility of you leaving this year...but even then, I could only understand his sentiment, not his expectations).

I think it's ironic that your PI expects you to withdraw your acceptance and reapply next year in order to pay him back for being so helpful in the application process this year. What the hell is he gonna want you to do to pay him back for helping you with next year's applications?

Not being able to defer may be a blessing in disguise. After this episode, would you want to spend another year working for this guy? Maybe there's more to this story, but from what you posted it seems he's valuing your work more than you as a person or a scientist-in-training...definately not a quality you want in a mentor. If you can get him to understand and make peace, great...otherwise move on and don't look back.

 

[tedrik]

Not being able to defer may be a blessing in disguise. After this episode, would you want to spend another year working for this guy? Maybe there's more to this story, but from what you posted it seems he's valuing your work more than you as a person or a scientist-in-training...definately not a quality you want in a mentor. If you can get him to understand and make peace, great...otherwise move on and don't look back.

Very well put. It's too bad that your PI is being so unreasonable about your situation, but there is really nothing you can do other than try to explain the circumstances. Does he know that your only other option would be to decline their offer and reapply next year? Does he also know that this would make it impossible to apply to the schools you got into this year? If you've been happy with working with this guy so far, then he was probably just having a bad day and was taking other agressions out on you. You've just finished a very long process and it should be a time to celebrate. Things will probably get better once he cools off a bit; otherwise you're leaving in a few months anyways!

 

[xanthines]

I've found this to be pretty common. PI's turn into total asses when their technicians go on to better things. I've been the most productive, capable, hard-working tech my PI has ever had and she still was upset. In my case, I think she'll get over it.

I agree with the other posts; you have to do what's best for you. Finishing projects before you leave is something that sounds like a good idea but is totally bogus in real life. I mean what are you supposed to do? Finish your project EXACTLY on the day before you leave? What about revisions to papers? What do you do inbetween? Nothing? That's even worse! Any PI that expects you to finish all your projects is totally naive. This is what happens when people leave. There's always something left to do and that's just a fact that PI's (and us future PI's) are gonna have to deal with.

Sorry to rant, but I've gotten old and bold enough to fight back against injustices my PI tries to pin on me. Strangely enough, our relationship is better than ever. It irritates me when I hear PI's bullying their tech/students/post-docs.

Just my two cents.

-X

I walked into my PI's office yesterday to inform him that I will be accepting my MD/PhD offer at OHSU this year, and will be ending my employment with him in 7 weeks as a result. The offer was just made to me on Monday, I decided on Wednesday to accept it...and told him Thursday, which I felt was the most respectful way to handle the situation. The first words out of his mouth were, "this really sucks!" To make a long story short, he got very, very angry and laid the heaviest guilt trip on me I have ever experienced. He called me immature, irresponsible, ungrateful, and unaccountable. His 2 main reasons were that I was flaking on a project that I said I was committed to finishing, and that I owe him for being so helpful during my application process. I cannot fully deny either of those claims, as I did intend to finish the project and he was certainly a valuable advisor on my applications (wrote me an LOR, critiqued my essay, offered advice). I left his office feeling absolutely horrible about myself and very disappointed in my boss, especially since I respected him so much. I never intended to step on any toes or hurt anyone; I simply was doing what I believed was best for me. I think he responded very childishly...today he can barely look at me and didn't even say hello.

Background: I applied this year with the intent of deferring my matriculation until 2006. My applications were not as successful as my advisors or I had anticipated, and I only interviewed at 3 places, 2 of which waitlisted me, and the third just accepted me on Monday. Luckily, OHSU was one of my top choices (probably 2nd or 3rd), so I am very happy with the offer. Unfortunately, deferral is not an option at OHSU, so I was put in a difficult situation of declining and reapplying (thus finishing my project and, in theory, starting school in 2006--if I got in) or accepting this offer. I chose to accept, a decision that my friends, family, and many on this board supported.

I would like to hear what others' thoughts are...especially if anyone has been through a similar experience.

 

[bluegrass_druid]

Thanks for the support. That's really how i feel about everything, and I do think he is being unreasonable. As far as the "sworn promise" goes, I only ever expressed my intent to finish the project--I learned long ago to be weary of making promises. My intent was, and is, sincere, but as posted earlier, things did not go as planned...and that's life.

An interesting side-note: i spoke with a woman that worked as a tech for my PI for the 4 years before I came here (she now has a job in another department). She told me that this has happened with nearly every tech and grad student that he has ever had. One tech was actually fired while on an extended stay...in the hospital! Apparently, he sued for his position back, and won, before resigning (for obvious reasons). It seems that this is a pattern for him, which is a shame, as I have always respected him for many reasons. Had I known all of this coming in, I never would have taken the job. I'll remember this lesson when choosing a mentor in Oregon!

Good Riddance!!!

 

[xanthines]

Exactly! It boggles my mind to no end that PI's (and other people) just don't get this fact of life.

-X

things did not go as planned...and that's life.

 

[kermitdfrog]

I agree with everyone here, in that you are in the right. First off, the fact that you gave seven weeks notice is very commendable, because you could have just walked in and quit, or gave the typical 2 weeks. As you pointed out, you learned a lesson for future lab positions, in that it is best to preface commitments “This is my current intention/direction, however…” especially when picking your thesis lab. And even more important try to talk to current and past students, and even others outside the lab about the PI and the lab, before joining. Would it make a difference if you offered to train a replacement? The comment another poster made about not wanting to burn bridges, is definitely valid, so if there is something you could do to appease your PI (find a replacement, train one, stay a couple extra weeks if possible, ect) it might be in your best interest. If not, don’t worry about it, as you were upfront about the idea that you would not be in that lab for the rest of your life, and an opportunity came up that was too good to pass up, and if your PI can’t accept that then too bad.

 

[bluegrass_druid]

Exactly! It boggles my mind to no end that PI's (and other people) just don't get this fact of life.

-X

Right? Especially since science is the ultimate education in "things not going as planned."

Oh, well. Hopefully, he'll get over it and we can make amends. Either way, I am psyched to be off to bigger and better things.

 

[1Path]

After his reaction, I wouldn't give him 7 weeks. I did the same in a similar situation and the PI did everything in his power to F**K with me during the remaining time I was there. I'd give him 2 weeks and move on. He doesn't deserve your "favors" at this point.

 

[dave613]

Right? Especially since science is the ultimate education in "things not going as planned."

Oh, well. Hopefully, he'll get over it and we can make amends. Either way, I am psyched to be off to bigger and better things.

On what the the OP was saying, I have a side question: let's say your PI was director of the MD/PhD program at the school you were working in, and you wanted to go to another school's program, do you think the PI would also show that much anger to the tech?

Yeah, it's my situation, but i'm curious as to what you guys and girls think.

 

[MacGyver]

What I'd do is walk right up to the PI, throw some nasty chemical concoction on him, and tell him to **** OFF.

Seriously you dont need him anymore. All this crap about "burning bridges" is just hyped up nonsense. Your PI is a baby who needs to grow up. You dont owe him a damn thing.

I wouldnt stay for 7 weeks unless you need money. I'd just walk out and quit on his ass.

 

[javert]

let's say your PI was director of the MD/PhD program at the school you were working in, and you wanted to go to another school's program, do you think the PI would also show that much anger to the tech?

One of my friends is in this same situation. Her PI has been very supportive of her, although he's known for a while that she almsot definately won't be staying here for her MD/PhD. It probably depends on the PI, but I would expect most to understand.

 

[tedrik]

On what the the OP was saying, I have a side question: let's say your PI was director of the MD/PhD program at the school you were working in, and you wanted to go to another school's program, do you think the PI would also show that much anger to the tech?

Yeah, it's my situation, but i'm curious as to what you guys and girls think.

I wouldn't worry about it because he's resigning soon anyways right? Either way, it shouldn't matter.

 

[tr]

After this episode, would you want to spend another year working for this guy? Maybe there's more to this story, but from what you posted it seems he's valuing your work more than you as a person or a scientist-in-training...definately not a quality you want in a mentor.

Hm. I'd say this is probably true of a good 50-70% of the PIs I know.

The pyramid system is set up so as to virtually guarantee that PIs will exploit their technicians, graduate students, and postdocs. They have to be extremely angelic people in the first place to withstand the temptation, and most of them don't bother to try. There are only maybe 5-6 supportive, non-exploitative PIs at my institution that I know of, and students are falling all over themselves to get into those labs.

(Before grad school, I was lucky to tech in two labs with really wonderful PIs, so I know they exist; but I am no longer under the illusion that they are common.)

 

[microTAS]

I agree in general with everyone above. Some PIs are just like this to their students, so try not to take the insult personally. I suppose to make best of the situation, let the PI know you'd like to help in whatever ways to pass on the project in the next 7 weeks.

 

[dr.z]

I can feel the pain. I'm finishing (was planning) my Ph.D by the summer so I can start medical school in the fall. My PI was supportive when I was applying, now that I have places to go he told me no. He said he is going to keep me here as long as he feels I am ready, and to apply to medical school next year. Fortunately, I will be able to defer so I don't have to apply again.

 

[dave613]

I wouldn't worry about it because he's resigning soon anyways right? Either way, it shouldn't matter.

What, are you serious????? Tedrik pm me about this PLEASE. I never heard of this before.

 

[bluegrass_druid]

After his reaction, I wouldn't give him 7 weeks. I did the same in a similar situation and the PI did everything in his power to F**K with me during the remaining time I was there. I'd give him 2 weeks and move on. He doesn't deserve your "favors" at this point.

This is what I really feel like doing at this point. I have a bad feeling that things will not get any better here over the next month and a half, and it's getting to me a bit. Unfortunately, I live in NYC and must pay for my rent, life, and moving expenses. I need those 6 weeks to pull my **** together to leave. So money might keep me in it.

It's a shame to see that this is such a frequent occurance. I'm confused...do they intentionally pull the wool over their eyes or are they really that out of touch? I guess they don't spend a lot of time teaching scientists the rules of business etiquette, though. It seems to me, no matter how disappointing and frustrating the announcement is, that as a PI you should respond professionally: wish the person well, express your sadness that they will be leaving, and say that you understand and would like to keep in touch. Unless the person really sucks or is completely dysfunctional, I would like to think I would offer my future support, as well. If you are enraged, keep it to yourself. This is how my last PI and the other scientists I worked with in Boulder responded, and my respect for them has only increased with time.

 

[Kim B]

Bluegrass,

Screw your PI and get out of there. You are moving on to bigger and better things and you are on your way to achieving your ultimate goal. If your boss does not realize this then he is selfish (just like a good PI should be). You have used him to get what you want (acceptance to a really fantastic place, letter, job) and he used you for what he wanted (slave labor).

PIs, in my experience, are not looking out for your best interest. They are looking out for their best interest. If your selfish interest coincides with their selfish interest for a couple of years, then productivity is good and things go well. Once one of you moves on, then problems arise.

I've seen my friends in labs where the PI basically expects them to stay until he feels like they are ready to come out (whenever he finds a replacement and you have adequately trained them). One of my friends is in a lab where the PI expects him to stay indefinitely. Well you know what, when he finds another job he is going to give two weeks notice and no forwarding address or contact info, and he is not going to train a replacement either.

If your PI does not respect your goals and desires, then it makes it hard for you to repect him also. It makes morale really bad, and you will find other people and other labs with more supportive environments.

If I were in your position I would have first said I am leaving in 7 weeks. Then I would have felt out his feelings. If he was leaning toward being an a-hole, then I would not have even said I was going to OHSU, just in case he knows people there and decides to bad mouth you behind your back. Just my $ 0.02. Best of luck and congrats.

 

[bluegrass_druid]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. It is really frustrating and it does seriously decrease respect and morale in the lab. Since the initial temper-tantrum he has pulled his act together a bit, which is refreshing to see. He still has not wished me good luck or shown any sign of being happy for me.

It's so bizarre, because he KNEW that I was applying...he wrote an LOR for me...and he acts so shocked and angry when I pursue my goal. He feels so betrayed because he helped me so much and I stated my goal was to defer. Well, it didn't work out that way, and he basically said he wouldn't have helped me out (the total value of his help is questionable) if he knew that I was going to leave this year. Nice...an implicit insult and admission to shady ethics. What a winner!

Oh well...6 weeks left and I couldn't be happier!!

oh...and he knew it was ohsu, because i told him i got in when i thought he was reasonable. fortunately, it is about as far from nyu as possible 👍

 

[N-Surge]

<snip>

...things did not go as planned...and that's life.

<snip>

Probably the wisest statement in this thread. Never forget it.

 

[Reckoning]

Reading through this I think we should all remember that we are going to be PI's one day too. And when we lose a great research asst we are going to be pissed, although some of us are going to be better than others in dealing with it. It sounds like your PI is about seven.

Understand that you are a valuable member of his team and he is bummed to lose you, thank him, then do whatever you need to do for your career. When I quit my lab, my PI just about $hit his pants. But I promised him that I would publish my work with him while working in the job that I had taken at the time. He was really psyched when I followed through. Now we get along great. I don't know if you have that option but it would benefit both of you.

And it is just my experience but this guy is not the only socially ******ed scientist out there. Be warned!

Congrats on OHSU!

Thanks for the advice, everyone. It is really frustrating and it does seriously decrease respect and morale in the lab. Since the initial temper-tantrum he has pulled his act together a bit, which is refreshing to see. He still has not wished me good luck or shown any sign of being happy for me.

It's so bizarre, because he KNEW that I was applying...he wrote an LOR for me...and he acts so shocked and angry when I pursue my goal. He feels so betrayed because he helped me so much and I stated my goal was to defer. Well, it didn't work out that way, and he basically said he wouldn't have helped me out (the total value of his help is questionable) if he knew that I was going to leave this year. Nice...an implicit insult and admission to shady ethics. What a winner!

Oh well...6 weeks left and I couldn't be happier!!

oh...and he knew it was ohsu, because i told him i got in when i thought he was reasonable. fortunately, it is about as far from nyu as possible 👍

 

[N-Surge]

And it is just my experience but this guy is not the only socially ******ed scientist out there. Be warned!

Congrats on OHSU!

Ditto!

 

[bluegrass_druid]

Reading through this I think we should all remember that we are going to be PI's one day too. And when we lose a great research asst we are going to be pissed, although some of us are going to be better than others in dealing with it.

Agreed. This is really the take-home from this whole experience--how we can do our best to learn from our pasts. I think it is also important to remember that the architecture of the scientific world will change between now and then (eg-it is far more difficult to get into med school today than it was 30 or 40 years ago), and it is important to be perceptive enough to see it, understanding enough to accept it, and flexible enough to adapt to it. My PI still thinks that med school works like it did in the 70s.

I promised him that I would publish my work with him while working in the job that I had taken at the time. He was really psyched when I followed through. Now we get along great. I don't know if you have that option but it would benefit both of you.

I have been working hard at repairing our relationship. I took the "high road" and refused to bicker over our points and defend myself. I simply, assertively stated my intentions, expressed my desire to utilize my remaining time in a maximally constructive manner, and told him that I value all of his help and our relationship and hoped that we could maintain it. I really think that this helped cool him out a bit, and things are definitely improving. I would also like to remain involved in the project...we'll see how possible that is while in med school.