Respected Non-MSTPs

[jcm04]

Hi everyone, I am applying in the 2024 cycle and had this question while constructing my school list: Can I trust any MD/PhD program to provide me with quality physician scientist training? I want my school list to include non-MSTP programs because while I am confident in myself and my application I am not quite at the level of some of you impressive SDNers! I see non-MSTP programs at respected institutions like Penn State, Texas A&M, and Kansas. But can I trust a MD/PhD program from a less competitive school like LSU, Toledo, or Arkansas? I know funding becomes a factor in non-MSTPs but my question mainly pertains to the quality of the education and the value of the degrees.

Thanks to everyone, especially program directors, who make info accessible on here. It is invaluable for first-generation students and small college students like myself!

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[mdphd2210]

Hi everyone, I am applying in the 2024 cycle and had this question while constructing my school list: Can I trust any MD/PhD program to provide me with quality physician scientist training? I want my school list to include non-MSTP programs because while I am confident in myself and my application I am not quite at the level of some of you impressive SDNers! I see non-MSTP programs at respected institutions like Penn State, Texas A&M, and Kansas. But can I trust a MD/PhD program from a less competitive school like LSU, Toledo, or Arkansas? I know funding becomes a factor in non-MSTPs but my question mainly pertains to the quality of the education and the value of the degrees.

Thanks to everyone, especially program directors, who make info accessible on here. It is invaluable for first-generation students and small college students like myself!

Sorry, I did not reply with my last post as I meant to!

It depends on the program...in my opinion, anything that is fully funded should be a good program for training you to be a physician-scientist. I found that I focused more on the research fit when I was constructing my school list, and it led me in the right direction. From those you listed on the less competitive list, I am only familiar with Arkansas's program, and I know that they only cover tuition (you are responsible for some fees and your living allowance).

Another thing I would look into would be the students' success at getting their F30 grants. But that is only if you have an overwhelming amount of schools that fit your research.

Feel free to PM me about any specific advice, but I agree that program directors would probably have more valuable information and advice than myself, haha. Good luck in your cycle!

 

[eteshoe]

Overall the PhD component is what you have to evaluate since the MD component is standardized. Look for programs doing research in areas you like who are having students successfully finish. While a F30 is a great marker, it by no means precludes a program from being considered because NIH grants take quite a bit of gamesmanship beyond a scientifically tractable idea.

You can contact the programs to get a better idea of the outcomes of their trainees (e.g. PSTPs and research-intense residencies, programatic support to aid with minimizing attrition, etc). Overall the MD part is standardized as per the LCME but the PhD part can be quite variable. You want to find a program that has the means of letting you carry out the research you're interested in and 3-5 PIs you could see yourself working with.

The funding aspect is usually a selling point but I guess your tolerance for taking on debt after 8+ yrs will be up to you. If you're interested in matching into a very competitive specialty or at a competitive program - be sure to ask about where trainees over the past 5-10 years matched and into what. Also avg time to completion (a lot of programs sell the 7 MD/PhD but that's honestly not that common - most finish within 8-9 years).

The PhD provides you with the basic tools to be a scientist but from my experience it's really your residency/fellowship that elevates you to the level of physician-scientist.

 

[Fencer]

My standard advice:

I tell applicants to be very open to applying broadly. Take AAMC table B-8 in excel from the AAMC FACTS tables webpage. Calculate number of applicants per matriculating slot of all programs. Select the list of MSTP programs from the NIGMS website. Arrange the spreadsheet by size of entry class. Examine table B-12 to see if a particular year was odd with more matriculants than it seems. Check their websites. For example, my program takes 7 applicants every year since 2018, we used to take 4-5 prior to that. We just received an Impact Score of top 5% in our T32 MSTP renewal, and we will be adding an extra slot per year. Examine NIH funding tables at the Blue Ridge or NIH websites, particularly looking at funding from the NIH Institute of your area of interest (NCI, NIA, etc.). Depending upon your stats, you will group the 53 MSTPs by groups of 15-20, and select several from each group for your list... You have to have different levels of difficulty to make sure that you get into the best program for you (interest, fit, location, etc. low in the scale is USNWR ranking or perceived prestige). Choose at least 5-10 from each tier (more in top tier if you wish)... Apply early, if you need to triage interviews, that would be a good problem to have. If you follow my advice, you will get MD/PhD acceptance early from the bottom tier, and might end up in one of your dream schools by matriculation date.

 

[jcm04]

Sorry, I did not reply with my last post as I meant to!

It depends on the program...in my opinion, anything that is fully funded should be a good program for training you to be a physician-scientist. I found that I focused more on the research fit when I was constructing my school list, and it led me in the right direction. From those you listed on the less competitive list, I am only familiar with Arkansas's program, and I know that they only cover tuition (you are responsible for some fees and your living allowance).

Another thing I would look into would be the students' success at getting their F30 grants. But that is only if you have an overwhelming amount of schools that fit your research.

Feel free to PM me about any specific advice, but I agree that program directors would probably have more valuable information and advice than myself, haha. Good luck in your cycle!

Great point, moving the research fit up in my criteria simplifies things. Thanks for this!

 

[jcm04]

Overall the PhD component is what you have to evaluate since the MD component is standardized. Look for programs doing research in areas you like who are having students successfully finish. While a F30 is a great marker, it by no means precludes a program from being considered because NIH grants take quite a bit of gamesmanship beyond a scientifically tractable idea.

You can contact the programs to get a better idea of the outcomes of their trainees (e.g. PSTPs and research-intense residencies, programatic support to aid with minimizing attrition, etc). Overall the MD part is standardized as per the LCME but the PhD part can be quite variable. You want to find a program that has the means of letting you carry out the research you're interested in and 3-5 PIs you could see yourself working with.

The funding aspect is usually a selling point but I guess your tolerance for taking on debt after 8+ yrs will be up to you. If you're interested in matching into a very competitive specialty or at a competitive program - be sure to ask about where trainees over the past 5-10 years matched and into what. Also avg time to completion (a lot of programs sell the 7 MD/PhD but that's honestly not that common - most finish within 8-9 years).

The PhD provides you with the basic tools to be a scientist but from my experience it's really your residency/fellowship that elevates you to the level of physician-scientist.

This makes a lot of sense. I suppose the ambiguous "prestige" factor doesn't really matter if graduates are getting where they need to go. Thanks!

 

[jcm04]

My standard advice:

I tell applicants to be very open to applying broadly. Take AAMC table B-8 in excel from the AAMC FACTS tables webpage. Calculate number of applicants per matriculating slot of all programs. Select the list of MSTP programs from the NIGMS website. Arrange the spreadsheet by size of entry class. Examine table B-12 to see if a particular year was odd with more matriculants than it seems. Check their websites. For example, my program takes 7 applicants every year since 2018, we used to take 4-5 prior to that. We just received an Impact Score of top 5% in our T32 MSTP renewal, and we will be adding an extra slot per year. Examine NIH funding tables at the Blue Ridge or NIH websites, particularly looking at funding from the NIH Institute of your area of interest (NCI, NIA, etc.). Depending upon your stats, you will group the 53 MSTPs by groups of 15-20, and select several from each group for your list... You have to have different levels of difficulty to make sure that you get into the best program for you (interest, fit, location, etc. low in the scale is USNWR ranking or perceived prestige). Choose at least 5-10 from each tier (more in top tier if you wish)... Apply early, if you need to triage interviews, that would be a good problem to have. If you follow my advice, you will get MD/PhD acceptance early from the bottom tier, and might end up in one of your dream schools by matriculation date.

I love this systematic approach. Applying broadly is my goal and looks like I now have a way to do it. Thank you!

 

[thr1932359]

EDIT: Erroneous information, see below

 

[Fencer]

Penn State is an MSTP FYI, they achieved MSTP recognition in 2018

They received the T32 MSTP award starting in July 2016, but their last year of funding was in June 2021.
Check out NIH Reporter for T32GM118294.

 

[thr1932359]

They received the T32 MSTP award starting in July 2016, but their last year of funding was in June 2021.
Check out NIH Reporter for T32GM118294.

My mistake, will correct reply