"Non-tenure track" positions

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lipomas

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I glance through job ads every now and then, and in the past couple of years I feel like I am seeing a lot more academic jobs being advertised as "non-tenure track" often with "clinical" in there as well also. What is the genesis of this? Is this coming from academic departments who are trying to hire people to work there without the same sort of academic pressure to publish? Is this a symptom of declining granting of tenure overall? Are academic departments taking advantage of new hires?

Is a non-tenure track position a less than ideal position to take if you think you want to be in academics for your career and not just for a few years at the start of it? I do not ask for my own benefit since I have a job that I like, but I am curious.

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I would like to know as well. I think I would like to work in academics for my career because I love teaching. I am not totally averse to doing some research, but I really dislike the idea of having some quota of papers that I must publish in order to keep my job. Especially when I will be taking a big paycut to stay in academics just so I can teach dermpath rather than making a lot more money in private practice.
 
Non-tenure track, "clinical-track" positions do not require publishing for promotion. It is there for people who want to be in academics but don't want to publish and only want to teach and sign out cases. It is not a "bad deal" as tenure means very little (as far as $$ goes) for clinical faculty in most academic centers. Generally they pay similarly to tenure track positions and the duties are relatively the same except for a bit less off-service time to write.
 
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The requirements for tenure track are vastly different between categories of institutions.

Places like Hopkins, Harvard, Yale, Duke, UCLA, UCSF will NEVER tenure you unless you are WORLD famous in your area as a clinician or have a significant research enterprise.



There are numerous examples of individuals tenured at decent midwest programs that would not stand a chance at Harvard programs. Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCLA etc.

Most programs do not offer a tenure track from the get go. You start as an assistant professor and differentiate according to your talents and the way you fit in the department or the chair's goals.

The only pure clinical people I have seen offered tenure have been brought in as professors from already established "world class" clinical programs. These individuals have either written major textbooks or contributed by developing diagnostic criteria etc.

Others negotiate tenure and based on the departments needs will get it only because of timing.
 
"Clinical track" is euphemistic for "somebody to sign out the meat." Specimen volumes are increasing and departments are more squeezed financially, so in order to afford tenure track types who do less than 50% clinical work, departments are hiring people in clinical tracks to work 90-150% clinical time (basically equal or more than private practice volume) while paying them half of what they would make in private practice. In my experience the caliber of clinical track faculty is substantially lower on average than the tenure track. I personally don't see the point in doing one of these jobs unless they allow you substantial academic time or some other benefit.
 
Different institutions have different policies with regards to tenure track and non-tenure track. It also depends on what department you are in and the capacity of your work. Tenure and non-tenure was explained to me as such:

If you are a basic science researcher, tenure is very important. All tenure means is that if you were to cease academic activity, you are guaranteed a base pay (i.e., let's say you run out of grant funding). However, the base pay is quite low. In the sphere of laboratory investigation, tenure is often equated with "job security." This can be misleading because if you, as a researcher, cease all activity...sure you can keep your base pay. But job security means very little when your department dislikes you for your lack of activity and wants to get rid of you. The department can actually do some passive aggressive things to make your life more miserable so that you will want to leave and give up your base pay. Think of what happens to Milton in the movie, Office Space. Lumberg never actually tells him, "you're fired", instead he just tells him to keep moving his desk and eventually into the basement. As a lab investigator who no longer has funding, his/her lab space is taken away and given to someone with funding and he/she is relegated to a small, closet-spaced office. Would you stay for base pay? Or would you leave and look for different but greener pastures?

As a clinician, tenure is not as important. You provide an essential service to the hospital; hence, you simply just lose your job if you don't do anymore clinical work or you suck so badly at it. Plus, in many departments, you don't have to publish to keep your job. It's just that if you don't publish, you don't get promoted. Teaching won't get you promoted; however, teaching at a national or international stage will help you. To be recognized enough to be invited to do the latter, you have to publish. So for promotion, there's no way around publishing. Pure and simple. Again, if you provide an essential service to the hospital, you won't lose your job. Hence, in that vein, the concept of tenure is practically trivial for the clinician. Tenure and promotion is more a matter of personal pride. Some people choose not to care about either. That is why you can have a person who loves to teach, refuses to publish, and just retires as a Clinical Assistant Professor Emeritus with a good retirement package.

Someone mentioned Duke and Hopkins. Those two have quite a difference in track setup. Duke has three tracks...and the clinical track exists. However, you start on this track without tenure. If you are recruited from the outside, you should start as an Assistant Professor. Next step is Associate Professor. Next step is Associate Professor WITH tenure. Final step is Professor (you're already tenured). NOTE: There are 4 steps. You might as well call the Assistant Professor an Instructor and the Associate Professor without tenure as an Assistant Professor. So what? Who cares? There's nothing wrong with that. As long as you keep your job, right?

Hopkins has only one track. It's a tenure track. But when you start, the clock starts ticking; it's essentially publish or perish if you break it down to the bare-bones essentials. You can consider your job in jeopardy if you don't publish (not sure what the quota is though). But the people they recruit are quite good so for the most of them, this may not be a problem.
 
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"Clinical track" is euphemistic for "somebody to sign out the meat." Specimen volumes are increasing and departments are more squeezed financially, so in order to afford tenure track types who do less than 50% clinical work, departments are hiring people in clinical tracks to work 90-150% clinical time (basically equal or more than private practice volume) while paying them half of what they would make in private practice. In my experience the caliber of clinical track faculty is substantially lower on average than the tenure track. I personally don't see the point in doing one of these jobs unless they allow you substantial academic time or some other benefit.

Agreed. Departments that put you on service to the same extent as in private practice but pay you substantially less are evil. Academic clinical track jobs are good if they do give you substantial protected time. I know a few places that give you 50% protected time. Others give 33%. Another, 25%. It varies from place to place. However, this is significantly determined by whether the department is short staffed or adequately staffed.

Hence, if you go the academic route and you interview at places, you should definitely ask what the staffing situation is. And if the department wants you to sign out stuff you have no intention of signing out, that is an indirect indication that the department is short-staffed. May want to avoid those places if you have the choice.



 
WOW! After reading these last few posts I find it hard to believe that lots of folks on this board consider practicing as a pathologist in a corporate milleau as some draconian variant of serfdome. I could never do this s***.
 
So for promotion, there's no way around publishing. Pure and simple.

Is there any significant advantage to being promoted in a clinical track academic job? I mean, does the pay or benefits actually increase that much?

Thanks to everyone who is posting about this. It is very useful for someone like me who loves teaching but also wants to keep my mind open to other possibilities (and I realize that I owe a HUGE amount of student loans).
 
Is there any significant advantage to being promoted in a clinical track academic job? I mean, does the pay or benefits actually increase that much?

Thanks to everyone who is posting about this. It is very useful for someone like me who loves teaching but also wants to keep my mind open to other possibilities (and I realize that I owe a HUGE amount of student loans).

1. Pay increase (modest, probably not much)
2. Pride

No additional benefits really.

Different departmental policies may offer additional perks.
 
That is all great information, thanks.

So are "non tenure track" positions increasing? Or is that just my impression? Or is this just a new way of wording things in the current era? I feel like maybe 30-40 years ago they didn't even bother with this terminology.
 
I agree with Andy, this is really institution dependent. At the top places the tenure rate is very low and is not particularly relevant outside the basic science world. Job security varies, but it is usually quite good in these institutions (often there are significant protections put in place to protect members of the University from abusive practices, to an extent that once you establish yourself as a valued and productive member of a department, you are set for a long and stable career ... very different from a corporate environment). As Andy says, Chair's can make tenured unproductive faculty miserable enough to leave and in many ways their job is less secure since they are subject to the whims of NIH study sections (and a currently very intense R01 competition).

Lipoma, my opinion is that choice of department is the important consideration for an academic job. Tenure vs non-tenure for someone not involved in R01 funded research is a trivial consideration unless it is linked to protected time, I think.

We have discussed academic salary before, and I know that there are academic centers which take advantage of their employees, but in my definition of a good department there is 50% (or nearly that much) protected time and you are paid fairly for the clinical work you do (e.g. 175-350K depending on rank; Andy I think there is often a substantial difference in pay between rank 1 Ast professor and professor, so there is a lot of motivation for promotion, may again be institution dependent though) and have a generous retirement (pension, health, etc). As you develop an expert reputation and bring in consults that require more clinical work, you should be compensated additionally (with some faculty making well over 350K).
 
We have discussed academic salary before, and I know that there are academic centers which take advantage of their employees, but in my definition of a good department there is 50% (or nearly that much) protected time and you are paid fairly for the clinical work you do (e.g. 175-350K depending on rank; Andy I think there is often a substantial difference in pay between rank 1 Ast professor and professor, so there is a lot of motivation for promotion, may again be institution dependent though) and have a generous retirement (pension, health, etc). As you develop an expert reputation and bring in consults that require more clinical work, you should be compensated additionally (with some faculty making well over 350K).

That is very encouraging to know. So maybe I can teach and still pay off my loans one day! 😉
 
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We have discussed academic salary before, and I know that there are academic centers which take advantage of their employees, but in my definition of a good department there is 50% (or nearly that much) protected time and you are paid fairly for the clinical work you do (e.g. 175-350K depending on rank; Andy I think there is often a substantial difference in pay between rank 1 Ast professor and professor, so there is a lot of motivation for promotion, may again be institution dependent though) and have a generous retirement (pension, health, etc). As you develop an expert reputation and bring in consults that require more clinical work, you should be compensated additionally (with some faculty making well over 350K).


This may be true in some departments, but not in the one where I work. If this were true as a general rule, more people would be going into academics. Unfortunately the salaries that I have seen in academics are much lower than that (by half, in most cases).
 
This may be true in some departments, but not in the one where I work. If this were true as a general rule, more people would be going into academics. Unfortunately the salaries that I have seen in academics are much lower than that (by half, in most cases).

I have seen data presented at national meetings (? by who, maybe Jeff Myers?) which indicated that after a number of years salary can often begin to equalize. I suspect this is extremely variable though. Some places call themselves academic but in actuality are high volume private hospitals that also have residents (like CCF or Mayo) and compensate pretty well.
 
I have seen data presented at national meetings (? by who, maybe Jeff Myers?) which indicated that after a number of years salary can often begin to equalize. I suspect this is extremely variable though. Some places call themselves academic but in actuality are high volume private hospitals that also have residents (like CCF or Mayo) and compensate pretty well.

I have been told that "only a handful" of academic pathologists make more than 200k. If I could expect to make 250k in academics I would seriously consider that, however, my experience is that only many years into your career would you make greater than 200k in academics (and my experience is at a place similar to Mayo and CCF).
 
I have been told that "only a handful" of academic pathologists make more than 200k. If I could expect to make 250k in academics I would seriously consider that, however, my experience is that only many years into your career would you make greater than 200k in academics (and my experience is at a place similar to Mayo and CCF).

Do GI and dermpath make much more than general surg path in academics (including the Mayo and Cleveland Clinic type environments)? I was hoping I could use dermpath as a trading card to get a decent academic salary (my ideal job would be at a private/academic hybrid type of hospital, or so I think at this point. I may be biased because I am training at a similar type of program and I really like it.)
 
Do GI and dermpath make much more than general surg path in academics (including the Mayo and Cleveland Clinic type environments)?


My impression is no, at least not where I work.
 
I have been told that "only a handful" of academic pathologists make more than 200k. If I could expect to make 250k in academics I would seriously consider that, however, my experience is that only many years into your career would you make greater than 200k in academics (and my experience is at a place similar to Mayo and CCF).

I don't think that's true. It's much more than a handful. But often they are very experienced. And at places like Mayo it is common (as far as I know) to make over $200k. But I don't know how long you have to work.
 
Do GI and dermpath make much more than general surg path in academics (including the Mayo and Cleveland Clinic type environments)? I was hoping I could use dermpath as a trading card to get a decent academic salary (my ideal job would be at a private/academic hybrid type of hospital, or so I think at this point. I may be biased because I am training at a similar type of program and I really like it.)

Sometimes but not always. It usually depends on consults and/or sweetheart deals which are unlikely to happen to someone just starting out. Particularly dermpath. Some dermpaths have unique deals with academic departments where they make lots of money (Yale, UCSF, Columbia have all been mentioned on this forum).
 
I thought Mayo started at over 200, though not so much protected time. They have an open position right now. Maybe someone here will interview and can give some first hand info? Over 200 should allow for an excellent quality of life in Rochester I would think.

At my program all associate profs were well over 200, full professors were close to or over 300
 
I thought Mayo started at over 200, though not so much protected time. They have an open position right now. Maybe someone here will interview and can give some first hand info? Over 200 should allow for an excellent quality of life in Rochester I would think.

At my program all associate profs were well over 200, full professors were close to or over 300

I have heard that this is the case. Per the rumor mill (who knows if true), the pathologists' salaries at Mayo are quite generous because the leadership tried to offset frustation with a high clinical load and little protected time compared to other academic centers by raising salaries. I guess this would be OK for those interested in mostly signing out in an academic setting but not if you wanted to do some serious scholarly work.
 
I have been told that "only a handful" of academic pathologists make more than 200k. If I could expect to make 250k in academics I would seriously consider that, however, my experience is that only many years into your career would you make greater than 200k in academics (and my experience is at a place similar to Mayo and CCF).

It's a pretty big handful, as others have alluded to. This is even discounting the outliers who make 7 figures in academics because they have lucrative consultation deals or whatever on the side. True, at many academic places you are going to top out at close to $200k unless you become chairman, but that does not include other benefits and potential sources of income.
 
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