Non trad ask "me anything" thread

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Orthojoe

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Hey all, I am a non trad who just recently matched into orthopedics. It was suggested by an admin to start a thread to help others who are in a similar position as me, so here it is. Ask me anything.

History: I was 31 going back into med school with three kids, a failed business, four crappy (used to be awesome) real estate investments and an MS in microbiology. Im now leaving with most my creditors paid off, a sweet match into orthopedics and one additional child.

If I can be of any help, I'll sure try.
 
Hello Orthojoe,
Congrats on matching!

Got a few questions:
1. Did you know you wanted to do ortho when you matriculated at med school?
2. Did you find your age to be an issue at certain residency programs you were interested in? (I'm assuming you are 35 now)
3. Are you planning on doing a fellowship? If so which one?

Thanks.
 
Great idea, thanks for participating.

1.) What do feel like the most difficult thing was about pursuing this road as a non-trad.

2.) What do you think the best thing was?
 
Hey all, I am a non trad who just recently matched into orthopedics. It was suggested by an admin to start a thread to help others who are in a similar position as me, so here it is. Ask me anything.

History: I was 31 going back into med school with three kids, a failed business, four crappy (used to be awesome) real estate investments and an MS in microbiology. Im now leaving with most my creditors paid off, a sweet match into orthopedics and one additional child.

If I can be of any help, I'll sure try.

Very inspiring!!
Since I got very few replys on my thread (I do appreciate the ones that did reply), I thought I might ask you. since you have been through the entire process. Here was my post

I have been working as an Occupational therapist for about a year now, and really considering a career in medicine. It is a really fulfilling career, but does not give me too much of a challege and would not let me acheive my aspirations I have an undergraduate degree in Biology and psychology minor with C's in most prereq courses and 3.2 overall GPA, and I have an MSc.in Occupational with some science classes with an Overall GPA of a 3.7. I am curently doing research in neuroscience with a psychiatrist and as a therapist in a well known acedemic medical center I have lots of clinical experience, but I can also shadow Drs. if I so choose. So what would be the best course of action for me? I know in general that should get 32+ on the MCATs. I am thinking about getting an MSc. in neurobiology to boost my GPA and make me competitive for neurobiology Phd Programs. Or do I need to retake the prereqs agian, I graduated in 08 and by the time I apply I not sure if the medical schools will accept them.

thanks for your input. Congrats on matching in ortho.
 
Hello Orthojoe,
Congrats on matching!

Got a few questions:
1. Did you know you wanted to do ortho when you matriculated at med school?
2. Did you find your age to be an issue at certain residency programs you were interested in? (I'm assuming you are 35 now)
3. Are you planning on doing a fellowship? If so which one?

Thanks.
No I had pediatrics in mind when I went back.

During audition rotations many docs asked why I was "late to the game" and were a bit critical of me wanting to do ortho, since I will be 40 getting out.

however when it came down to interview time, I used my age as a positive, brought up my experiences and "maturity" per se often - they liked the idea of a student who had worked as a leader of a team/maanging empoloyees. So ultimately I think it worked to my advantage

No clue on fellowship, ive really liked general and the cost of fellowship (year of attending salary vs fellow salary) is hard to make up with additional income from a fellowship. The only one financially worth it is sports. So we will see.
 
Great idea, thanks for participating.

1.) What do feel like the most difficult thing was about pursuing this road as a non-trad.

2.) What do you think the best thing was?
most difficult for me: going from a business owner managing a 1 million gross revenue company and 7 employees to living as a student again. I had to really become humble. It was difficult to switch roles financially and emotionally.

Best thing: I was established on who I was and where I wanted to go. Younger students often are still playing games, figuring out where and what they want to accomplish and wanting to "party on the weekend", etc which was detrimental to grades and learning.
 
Very inspiring!!
Since I got very few replys on my thread (I do appreciate the ones that did reply), I thought I might ask you. since you have been through the entire process. Here was my post

I have been working as an Occupational therapist for about a year now, and really considering a career in medicine. It is a really fulfilling career, but does not give me too much of a challege and would not let me acheive my aspirations I have an undergraduate degree in Biology and psychology minor with C's in most prereq courses and 3.2 overall GPA, and I have an MSc.in Occupational with some science classes with an Overall GPA of a 3.7. I am curently doing research in neuroscience with a psychiatrist and as a therapist in a well known acedemic medical center I have lots of clinical experience, but I can also shadow Drs. if I so choose. So what would be the best course of action for me? I know in general that should get 32+ on the MCATs. I am thinking about getting an MSc. in neurobiology to boost my GPA and make me competitive for neurobiology Phd Programs. Or do I need to retake the prereqs agian, I graduated in 08 and by the time I apply I not sure if the medical schools will accept them.

thanks for your input. Congrats on matching in ortho.
there is a big difference from a PhD in neurobiology and an MD/DO degree. So Im not sure how to answer your question on where to start -- i need the answer of where do you want to go?

You dont need an MCAT of +32,, I had a 31. Higher obviously makes you competitive but there is no "cut-off". As to pre-reqs, I didn't have to do any additional and I was 7 years out from finishing college.

lastly, what about occupational therapy doesn't allow you to meet your aspirations - because you will be surprised about how medicine really is. It's a completely different experience once in it, as compared to shadowing, research,etc
 
Hey all, I am a non trad who just recently matched into orthopedics. It was suggested by an admin to start a thread to help others who are in a similar position as me, so here it is. Ask me anything.

History: I was 31 going back into med school with three kids, a failed business, four crappy (used to be awesome) real estate investments and an MS in microbiology. Im now leaving with most my creditors paid off, a sweet match into orthopedics and one additional child.

If I can be of any help, I'll sure try.

Thanks for doing this. I am 30 years old currently and putting my application in this July. I'm hoping some osteopathic schools will give me a sniff. I have 4-5 years of solid work experience and I've recently moved to the consulting field while I wait to take my MCAT.

As I begin preparing my application, I want to work on my personal statement and I was wondering if you had any suggestions on what to emphasize? I assume the capability of handling a full time job while studying and the ability to function in a business environment/lead a team.

Any suggestions for the non-trads on study habits or school/family-life balance? I'm more of a self-studier, I can't pay attention to a lecture because it doesn't match the speed of my material digestion. I like to veer off and find answers to questions immediately and to read at my own speed. Having said that, what are your suggestions to those of us hoping to strike that critical balance between a happy family and happy professional life?

(My wife and I are hoping to achieve pregnancy in the next few months, it'll be our first but hopefully not our last 🙂 )
 
Any suggestions for the non-trads on study habits or school/family-life balance? I'm more of a self-studier, I can't pay attention to a lecture because it doesn't match the speed of my material digestion. I like to veer off and find answers to questions immediately and to read at my own speed. Having said that, what are your suggestions to those of us hoping to strike that critical balance between a happy family and happy professional life?

(My wife and I are hoping to achieve pregnancy in the next few months, it'll be our first but hopefully not our last 🙂 )

Since you asked, and only because you asked, here are some suggestions:

Your family has to be supportive 110%.
They can not be selfish. This is your moment to focus on the studies, and not be too distracted (within reason) by anyone or anything. You come first. When you finish MD school, then you can be husband/father. As to having children, I would recommend holding off on having children. A classmate of mine, also a non-trad, has his wife with him and she kept pestering him and telling us classmates that she wanted to have kids. The poor guy was just starting his first year!!! Well, she got what she wanted. And he wasn't too thrilled to tell us. So guess who is missing classes, falling behind and feeling stressed?

The wife got what she wanted!! And the husband/future father is not doing too well.

Let me not understate that which is ahead of you: medical school is thankless, merciless, unforgiving and sucks everything you have out of you and then more. Your spouse better be on your side or you will suffer needlessly.

As to study habits, same thing: lock yourself up, have your spouse wait on you hand and foot, be with him/her when you can.....you will prefer to be with your spouse than your classmates for your off time so your spouse won't be completely ignored. But please be good to yourself: get into medical school, prepare to be completely immersed in a whirlwind like nothing else, and keep treading water. It will be over before you know it but the first year of medical school is simply indescribable. Oh, and don't forget to breathe.

PS: I like your St. Augustine avatar. We are thrilled with our new Pope! Yeah, Francis!

I hope you get accepted. Non-trad students make great medical students. They bring the maturity that is sorely lacking in the classes.

And just for good measure, not all traditional medical students are immature. Some are pretty remarkable and I have a few in my class. So let's not be so sensitive b/c if you are that insecure and defensive, you're just showing how much of a kid you are! mmmmkayyy?
 
Thanks for making this thread!

What made you decide on ortho over peds? When did you switch gears? Did you do any research during med school? Any other extracurriculars? What were your biggest factors in choosing a specialty? As a slightly older student, did the length of training in ortho make you hesitate?
 
Since you asked, and only because you asked, here are some suggestions:

Your family has to be supportive 110%.
They can not be selfish. This is your moment to focus on the studies, and not be too distracted (within reason) by anyone or anything. You come first. When you finish MD school, then you can be husband/father. As to having children, I would recommend holding off on having children. A classmate of mine, also a non-trad, has his wife with him and she kept pestering him and telling us classmates that she wanted to have kids. The poor guy was just starting his first year!!! Well, she got what she wanted. And he wasn't too thrilled to tell us. So guess who is missing classes, falling behind and feeling stressed?

The wife got what she wanted!! And the husband/future father is not doing too well.

Let me not understate that which is ahead of you: medical school is thankless, merciless, unforgiving and sucks everything you have out of you and then more. Your spouse better be on your side or you will suffer needlessly.

As to study habits, same thing: lock yourself up, have your spouse wait on you hand and foot, be with him/her when you can.....you will prefer to be with your spouse than your classmates for your off time so your spouse won't be completely ignored. But please be good to yourself: get into medical school, prepare to be completely immersed in a whirlwind like nothing else, and keep treading water. It will be over before you know it but the first year of medical school is simply indescribable. Oh, and don't forget to breathe.

PS: I like your St. Augustine avatar. We are thrilled with our new Pope! Yeah, Francis!

I hope you get accepted. Non-trad students make great medical students. They bring the maturity that is sorely lacking in the classes.

And just for good measure, not all traditional medical students are immature. Some are pretty remarkable and I have a few in my class. So let's not be so sensitive b/c if you are that insecure and defensive, you're just showing how much of a kid you are! mmmmkayyy?
I would disagree with nearly everything said in this post and I would ignore most of it. I believe it is a divorce, burnout, etc in the making. Yes there are plenty of mature students that are traditional, but honestly having many years in the professional world sets the non traditional student apart in a huge way.

Here is my advice

I was a father of two with one on the way when I matriculated to med school (leaving with four, what can i say, my wife thinks I'm hot!).

first and foremost my priority is and will always be my family. This means that I did NOT have many friends in my class and it means I did NOT join many study groups and during clinical rotations I didnt go out with the residents after work... my time away from school/studies were with my family. I rarely did anything just for me, and I chose and learned that my relaxation/get away was my family.. and when I did something for myself I had made sure my father priorities were done first. studies have shown that those who identified themselves as just a "doctor" or "medical student" were at higher risks of burnout.

So things that helped --

(1) we got a home close to school so my wife could bring the kids to lunch. I ate lunch with them most days. then played around the school grounds, volleyball court, gym -- my school has a great gym facility,basketball court and volleyball courts. We did this on rotations as well

(2) I enrolled my wife into studying and helping me. we would cuddle in bed and she would quiz me with flash cards, test materials, etc. To add a little incentive I would rub her back while she did this. Some of my funniest memories of med school was listening to my wife butcher medical lingo - and then on sunday have conversations with her friends at church where she would act like she knew all this medical material. It made me smile and laugh. Really this was huge for me. My wife bought into the idea that we were going to medical school together and when I did well, she did well. We would celebrate with a mcdonalds ice cream or something when I aced a test. Basically my wife really earned a medical degree with me. She probably could run circles around some medical students. shes kind of a "dumb blonde" personality so if my wife can do it, anyones can.

(3) I am a firm believer that focused studying beats volume studying anyday (see previous posts). I would set at time to study for 1 hour, super focus, learn, read and when the timer goes off I would stop for 30 minutes, go play with my kids, help with dinner -- timer goes off after 30 minutes I would go back to studying. using visual cues (markers, underlining, circling, staring) are part of this super focused learning. There are a few books out there on this process. Locking yourself in a room, studying all the time is a sure way to burnout, hate medicine and want to leave. Its why many students say "the first year is hell" - they think they need to study more, its the exact opposite. Study less but study effectively!!!

(4) I avoided lectures at all costs. These eat up so much time. I wanted to learn at my pace. So I would record lectures and listen to them at 1.6X speed, go over notes a week in advance so that all i would do was listen to the spots of the lecture I needed a little help with. I believe the lecture format is an old model that should be changed.

(5) study groups - i mentioned this before.. i wanted to learn at my own pace and often times study groups end up having long conversations NOT about school, or someone is struggling to understand which holds back the learning. This sounds kind of selfish but its the reality of study groups. I didnt have the time or luxury to participate.

(6) SLEEP!! important to me. I never pulled all nighters (only when on call). I felt they do more damage than good - eating into the next day as well. If i needed an all nighter its becasue I didnt learn the material appropriately the first time. Studying for a test for me was a simple review of material I already understood. Memorizing this information does take time. But going into a study session for a test, understanding the concepts, made memorizing easy.

(7) date night with wife - invaluable for maintaining a solid relationship. at least once a week. finding a group of 3or 4 families and then rotating babysitting is the best way. All the kids would be dropped off for 2.5 hours to one family already haven had dinner. Therefore we had one crazy saturday for 2.5 hours but then free babysitter 3 saturdays of the month. we have a large backyard with a huge play set so we just sent the kids outside with cupcakes or something.. whallo! our 2.5 hours were up in no time.

(8) I love the motto "adjust and continue" - if something didnt work or a study session was bad I would quickly identify why then adjust. Example.. I learned quickly that studying at home during the day (8-5) was pretty detrimental because "dad was home!" or my wife would ask for my help -- so I stayed at school until 5ish studying at the library. sometimes I would come home earlier but not if I knew I needed to get good studying in.

(9) We taught our kids that when dad is in the office - its "do not disturb".. basically we also had to buy a lock for the door so that I could study. I could do this and not feel guilty because I knew in an hour from going in, I'd be out to play or help around the house.

(10) - lastly (sorry for those who are not religious or spiritual).. my wife and I are committed physically, emotionally and spiritually. We committed that nothing would stand in our way of having a solid and close family dedicated to GOD and providing an awesome life for them. I understood that in the grand scheme of things my family is more important and if my grades slipped (NOT because I didnt try but because a family priority came up or church responsibility) then so be it. I believe because I put my family and god first i was blessed. yes there were days I wasnt around for my kids and days I couldnt "fulfill" my church responsibilities myself (i just asked for help though). But overall we followed my family's motto "Do your best and let God do the rest" (yes pretty cheezy but good none the less -- it sounds better when a chorus of a 7 year old girl, a 5 and a 3 year old boy are saying it at night after our family prayers)

thats all i can think of right now.
 
Hello OrthoJoe,

I don't have any particular questions to ask, but rather would like to thank you for your encouragement and words of wisdom. Being a 23 year old aerospace engineer non trad pre med, your comments are truly inspiring and motivational to me. Further, being a Christian myself and undergoing major sine waves through my life of faith with God, I really am trying to pursue God (and trying not to fall for the temptations of this world) , and knowing that your a Christian and that you put God first before anything else, and that God has bestowed upon you blessings (with major major sacrifice) is truly an inspiration to me for not only my aspirations in becoming a doctor, but also my faith with God. Knowing that your name is within the book of life, I do hope that one day Ill see you in heaven some day. But also, I hope that you and I can become role models for others in this world today and help others find faith in God using the platform God gave you and may give me in the future.

I wish you the very best with your future endeavors, and God bless.
 
I would disagree with nearly everything said in this post and I would ignore most of it. I believe it is a divorce, burnout, etc in the making. Yes there are plenty of mature students that are traditional, but honestly having many years in the professional world sets the non traditional student apart in a huge way.

Here is my advice

I was a father of two with one on the way when I matriculated to med school (leaving with four, what can i say, my wife thinks I'm hot!).

first and foremost my priority is and will always be my family. This means that I did NOT have many friends in my class and it means I did NOT join many study groups and during clinical rotations I didnt go out with the residents after work... my time away from school/studies were with my family. I rarely did anything just for me, and I chose and learned that my relaxation/get away was my family.. and when I did something for myself I had made sure my father priorities were done first. studies have shown that those who identified themselves as just a "doctor" or "medical student" were at higher risks of burnout.

So things that helped --

(1) we got a home close to school so my wife could bring the kids to lunch. I ate lunch with them most days. then played around the school grounds, volleyball court, gym -- my school has a great gym facility,basketball court and volleyball courts. We did this on rotations as well

(2) I enrolled my wife into studying and helping me. we would cuddle in bed and she would quiz me with flash cards, test materials, etc. To add a little incentive I would rub her back while she did this. Some of my funniest memories of med school was listening to my wife butcher medical lingo - and then on sunday have conversations with her friends at church where she would act like she knew all this medical material. It made me smile and laugh. Really this was huge for me. My wife bought into the idea that we were going to medical school together and when I did well, she did well. We would celebrate with a mcdonalds ice cream or something when I aced a test. Basically my wife really earned a medical degree with me. She probably could run circles around some medical students. shes kind of a "dumb blonde" personality so if my wife can do it, anyones can.

(3) I am a firm believer that focused studying beats volume studying anyday (see previous posts). I would set at time to study for 1 hour, super focus, learn, read and when the timer goes off I would stop for 30 minutes, go play with my kids, help with dinner -- timer goes off after 30 minutes I would go back to studying. using visual cues (markers, underlining, circling, staring) are part of this super focused learning. There are a few books out there on this process. Locking yourself in a room, studying all the time is a sure way to burnout, hate medicine and want to leave. Its why many students say "the first year is hell" - they think they need to study more, its the exact opposite. Study less but study effectively!!!

(4) I avoided lectures at all costs. These eat up so much time. I wanted to learn at my pace. So I would record lectures and listen to them at 1.6X speed, go over notes a week in advance so that all i would do was listen to the spots of the lecture I needed a little help with. I believe the lecture format is an old model that should be changed.

(5) study groups - i mentioned this before.. i wanted to learn at my own pace and often times study groups end up having long conversations NOT about school, or someone is struggling to understand which holds back the learning. This sounds kind of selfish but its the reality of study groups. I didnt have the time or luxury to participate.

(6) SLEEP!! important to me. I never pulled all nighters (only when on call). I felt they do more damage than good - eating into the next day as well. If i needed an all nighter its becasue I didnt learn the material appropriately the first time. Studying for a test for me was a simple review of material I already understood. Memorizing this information does take time. But going into a study session for a test, understanding the concepts, made memorizing easy.

(7) date night with wife - invaluable for maintaining a solid relationship. at least once a week. finding a group of 3or 4 families and then rotating babysitting is the best way. All the kids would be dropped off for 2.5 hours to one family already haven had dinner. Therefore we had one crazy saturday for 2.5 hours but then free babysitter 3 saturdays of the month. we have a large backyard with a huge play set so we just sent the kids outside with cupcakes or something.. whallo! our 2.5 hours were up in no time.

(8) I love the motto "adjust and continue" - if something didnt work or a study session was bad I would quickly identify why then adjust. Example.. I learned quickly that studying at home during the day (8-5) was pretty detrimental because "dad was home!" or my wife would ask for my help -- so I stayed at school until 5ish studying at the library. sometimes I would come home earlier but not if I knew I needed to get good studying in.

(9) We taught our kids that when dad is in the office - its "do not disturb".. basically we also had to buy a lock for the door so that I could study. I could do this and not feel guilty because I knew in an hour from going in, I'd be out to play or help around the house.

(10) - lastly (sorry for those who are not religious or spiritual).. my wife and I are committed physically, emotionally and spiritually. We committed that nothing would stand in our way of having a solid and close family dedicated to GOD and providing an awesome life for them. I understood that in the grand scheme of things my family is more important and if my grades slipped (NOT because I didnt try but because a family priority came up or church responsibility) then so be it. I believe because I put my family and god first i was blessed. yes there were days I wasnt around for my kids and days I couldnt "fulfill" my church responsibilities myself (i just asked for help though). But overall we followed my family's motto "Do your best and let God do the rest" (yes pretty cheezy but good none the less -- it sounds better when a chorus of a 7 year old girl, a 5 and a 3 year old boy are saying it at night after our family prayers)

thats all i can think of right now.

Much appreciated. My wife and I have a similar commitment to one another. We are open to life and recognize the connection we have in all three areas, as you mentioned.

Thanks for the breakdown and for helping pave the road, as I'm sure others have done before you. I wish you well in your residency.
 
Since you asked, and only because you asked, here are some suggestions:

Your family has to be supportive 110%.
They can not be selfish. This is your moment to focus on the studies, and not be too distracted (within reason) by anyone or anything. You come first. When you finish MD school, then you can be husband/father. As to having children, I would recommend holding off on having children. A classmate of mine, also a non-trad, has his wife with him and she kept pestering him and telling us classmates that she wanted to have kids. The poor guy was just starting his first year!!! Well, she got what she wanted. And he wasn't too thrilled to tell us. So guess who is missing classes, falling behind and feeling stressed?

The wife got what she wanted!! And the husband/future father is not doing too well.

Let me not understate that which is ahead of you: medical school is thankless, merciless, unforgiving and sucks everything you have out of you and then more. Your spouse better be on your side or you will suffer needlessly.

As to study habits, same thing: lock yourself up, have your spouse wait on you hand and foot, be with him/her when you can.....you will prefer to be with your spouse than your classmates for your off time so your spouse won't be completely ignored. But please be good to yourself: get into medical school, prepare to be completely immersed in a whirlwind like nothing else, and keep treading water. It will be over before you know it but the first year of medical school is simply indescribable. Oh, and don't forget to breathe.

PS: I like your St. Augustine avatar. We are thrilled with our new Pope! Yeah, Francis!

I hope you get accepted. Non-trad students make great medical students. They bring the maturity that is sorely lacking in the classes.

And just for good measure, not all traditional medical students are immature. Some are pretty remarkable and I have a few in my class. So let's not be so sensitive b/c if you are that insecure and defensive, you're just showing how much of a kid you are! mmmmkayyy?

Thanks for your suggestion and for the props on the avatar. He's a favorite of mine 🙂

My wife and I are working on developing new habits together. I've been studying for the MCAT after work so our "together" time has been drastically cut. I'll continue working on helping set the right mindset for our future, although nothing can prepare us fully, I'm sure.

I pray for St. Francis and his papacy, although I'm heartbroken over St. Benedict's abdication.
 
thanks again for doing this

Did you feel you were treated differently on 3rd- & 4th year rotations because you were a little bit older (better or worse)?
 
thanks again for doing this

Did you feel you were treated differently on 3rd- & 4th year rotations because you were a little bit older (better or worse)?
I dont think i was treated differently but it was often brought up. particularly in ortho. One doc said I was foolish to be thinking about ortho because I would be 40 when I got out. Well, i either spent 3 years in a primary care residency coming out making 150-200K or 5 years in ortho coming out and making 350-500K+, mathematics just doesn't make sense for two years gained. Plus I was happier in ortho.
 
This is a great thread..thanks!

So, two questions for you: did you ever feel like you would not make it through? We have had a fairly high attrition rate and it has really opened my eyes to the fact that people do fail out. I've done well, but at times it is very overwhelming and there are moments I wonder how in the world I will get through the semester. Then I think, 'what was I thinking starting this at my age?'. Then, I decide I'm wasting time and better continue studying. 🙂

The second question has to do with your decision to pursue ortho. Being a non-trad, are you concerned at all about the longevity of your career in ortho, with it being a surgical field? In other words, if you were FM, for instance, it would not be the end of the world if you developed arthritis in your hand 10 years down the road but could be catastrophic as a surgeon.

Edit: it looks like you did touch on my second question as I was typing it out..
 
Thanks for making this thread!

What made you decide on ortho over peds? When did you switch gears? Did you do any research during med school? Any other extracurriculars? What were your biggest factors in choosing a specialty? As a slightly older student, did the length of training in ortho make you hesitate?
I was much happier in ortho and didnt have very many days when I was hoping for the clock to wind down. It was a hard process because I was scared going into a surgical subspecialty that my family would suffer - well after doing 6 months of audition rotations I learned that ortho docs have phenom lifestyles if they set things up right. Man i was shocked how awesome it was. So thats when I said ortho was for me.

I had two years of benchtop research and about 6 different publications. all in pediatrics.
extracurricular: sunday school teacher, local school volunteer, local autism support volunteer

choosing a specialty :: what and where would I be happiest that didnt interfere with my family. thats the number one! Money was secondary, but it did play a factor. The first thing to decide is whether you want to do medicine or surgery, from there you can pick specifically what field. I did not enjoy the medicine rotations because everything was so ambigious. It may be this or it may be that --- so lets run a ton of different tests - and it was hard to see your treatment really making a difference.. In most surgical fields you knew exactly what was going on and how to fix it. that appealed to me.

the difference between 38 and 40 wasnt a big deal to me. It was only an additional 2 years in ortho. Plus if I did a primary care field,, if I wanted to specialize it was an additional 3 years so I would have been 41. Why do 6 years in primary care if I can go right into a specialty of 5 years..
 
hi orthojoe! thanks for doing this.

1) u mentioned that orthos could have phenomenal lifestyles if they set themselves up right...can you explain how?

2) are u considering the possiblity that the majority of orthos will be in hospital settings in the future when u say this?

3) finally, i think the reason the doctor said that it may be foolish to enter into ortho at ur age is because of the fact that u will be entering into a surgical field at 40. i dont think he was trying to say u could save 2 years if u just went into a different field. his logic may be that normally a person becomes an attending in their 30s and works hard for the first decade or so in their specialty and can then begin to decrease hours. surgical attendings may have to start out taking more hours and call (more hours and call than any of the other fields) than their seniors for many years b4 they gain that privelege--so instead of going through that hard phase in your 30s youll be in your 40s. im not sure if this is what the doctor was referring to when he spoke with u but what do u think about this?
 
Thanks so much for doing this! I'm just starting back to school, at 37, to finish my BA and premed prereqs. My husband has just started as a tenure-track professor at a small liberal arts college and we have 3 kids. 3 questions for you:

1. Did your wife work at all while you were in med school, and if so, how did you strike a balance between her career obligations and your school obligations?

2. Can you detail how you dealt with your financial situation? It gives me hope to hear that you started out in debt and are leaving med school debt-free... How'd you do it? We are sitting on a mortgage plus roughly $25K in student loans and credit card debt, and it has me really worried about taking on any more loans for school.

3. How old are your kids and how present and involved do you feel you were able to be while you were in med school? What did you do to achieve that?

Thanks again!
 
hi orthojoe! thanks for doing this.

1) u mentioned that orthos could have phenomenal lifestyles if they set themselves up right...can you explain how?

2) are u considering the possiblity that the majority of orthos will be in hospital settings in the future when u say this?

3) finally, i think the reason the doctor said that it may be foolish to enter into ortho at ur age is because of the fact that u will be entering into a surgical field at 40. i dont think he was trying to say u could save 2 years if u just went into a different field. his logic may be that normally a person becomes an attending in their 30s and works hard for the first decade or so in their specialty and can then begin to decrease hours. surgical attendings may have to start out taking more hours and call (more hours and call than any of the other fields) than their seniors for many years b4 they gain that privelege--so instead of going through that hard phase in your 30s youll be in your 40s. im not sure if this is what the doctor was referring to when he spoke with u but what do u think about this?
first you have to understand that I consider working 50-60 hours a week a great lifestyle. as a previous business owner I was used to putting in more hours. Second you would need to understand a little bit about business to understand the concept of "setting it up right" - but the bottom line is that you can find jobs or be involved in a private practice SET UP from the beginning to not run your life into the ground. Its about patient selection and target marketing, being willing to say no to money initially while you patiently wait to build a good demographics.

I have two head hunters for docs who sent me job opportunities all the time. SO I have a good idea of what the employment demand and lifestyle is in ortho right now (yes it could change in 5 years). But Ortho is in high demand and more and more hospitals are taking them in house.

the day and age of physicians taking call all the time is dead, in my opinion (unless you are in a rural community). It is being phased out with large group practices or becoming a hospital employee because reimbursements are so low and overhead is so high.. so with that call is much more manageable.

As you eluded to there is a hierarchy with younger surgeons taking way more call and responsibility -- BUT only if you choose to live that way, which I do not. There are so many opportunities to bypass this archaic tradition. For example, there are two jobs right now for general ortho docs in a large group practice where they take call 1 in 6, have 6 weeks of paid vacation a year and salary is in the high 400 with a 100k student loan repayment. Its nice to be wanted! Yes it is in a smaller community and not a large popular city or large university hospital.. but I don't care about that. I like the smaller hospitals and community settings better anyway. -- maybe this is what he was alluding too, but the doc I'm thinking of was only 2 years out of his fellowship so i'm not sure.
 
Thanks so much for doing this! I'm just starting back to school, at 37, to finish my BA and premed prereqs. My husband has just started as a tenure-track professor at a small liberal arts college and we have 3 kids. 3 questions for you:

1. Did your wife work at all while you were in med school, and if so, how did you strike a balance between her career obligations and your school obligations?

2. Can you detail how you dealt with your financial situation? It gives me hope to hear that you started out in debt and are leaving med school debt-free... How'd you do it? We are sitting on a mortgage plus roughly $25K in student loans and credit card debt, and it has me really worried about taking on any more loans for school.

3. How old are your kids and how present and involved do you feel you were able to be while you were in med school? What did you do to achieve that?

Thanks again!
Yes I worked part time all four years of medical school -- tough tough but I was lucky enough to find a group willing to work with me on my changing schedule and some previous investments worked out well -- the work was in Utah while I went to school in AZ.. my first two years i flew up about twice a month for 2-3 days and my third and fourth years I flew up for the weekend once a month.

My wife is a blogger for TheDatingDivas - but only makes a few hundred bucks a month.. it helped but not dramatically. - see previous post above about how we balanced work and student life. I couldnt have done it without my wife. having another working spouse - in your situation- i think would be tougher.

As to my debt.. here we go... 150K business debt personally guaranteed, 10k credit card debt, 15k car loan, 120k previous student loan debt. two homes equaling 510K (our renters covered both mortgages +300, i sold others for a profit of about 45K which we lived off the first year). I'm not leaving debt free, but my consumer debt completely paid off.. previous student loans(in deferment until intern year which will then be paid on income based repayment program) and home loans left. What I got rid of was my business debt (settled with creditors for discount) and our consumer loans. My credit was hit pretty good from settling but its much better than having a creditor chomping at the bit to collect. basically i reduced it to around 50K through negotiations with them and then slowly paid it off over the four years.

I did it by having a very strict budget, talking honestly with the creditors and not letting them push me around (i had to learn my rights),negotiating with credit cards for a lower interest rate, selling a lot of the "fun stuff" my wife and I previously had, downsizing my home, we got approved for WIC (helped us with food giving us bread, juice, milk and peanut butter for the month) and my kids and wife got on the state's insurance program, local utilities will give you discounts as a student, AT&T also gave us discount on our phone plan as a student (I called everyone asking if they gave discounts for students), movie theaters and other fun activities give discounts as students.. this was the hardest aspect of going back to school, it really hit my "pride" as a dad/father/bread winner becoming a student again. But I knew the outcome would be so much better.

My total school loan debt after this... 450K!

now take the average ortho salary at 350.. minus taxes will give me 175 take home (generalization). We have budgeted a 100k home budget which means student loans paid off in 6 years -- . So I'll be debt free (except homes obviously) with a 175K take home pay at the age of 46.. phenomenal. however I will take a job and negotiate a good student loan payback and I will be one of those physicians making more than average, no doubt about it. Not to mention some of the investments I have now, if I manage correctly will help us get further ahead. We've been living on a 40K home budget right now so almost tripling that will be easy for us. Man it has been a crazy four years, still cant believe we did it. I think its been a huge success for us.


I entered school at age 31 with a 4 year old, 2 year old and wife pregnant, leaving with a 7 year old, 5 year year old, 3 year old, brand new baby.

yes i was heavily involved in my kids life - again see above posts on how I did this. I took my little girl to every one of her soccer practices (twice a week), but did miss about 30% of her games as I was out of town working on the weekend. My two boys are in swim class I have missed only 1-2 of their classes over the last 5 months. My kids and I go hiking nearly every saturday (we went night hiking last Monday because I was gone the previous saturday). now that its warm we usually go boating 2-3 times a month. this weekend we are going camping in sedona. Monday night is family movie night, friday is usually hanging at the pet store at the mall or Barnes and noble (my kids love it,) So yes I do a lot with them. Saturday is my wife night with me. This can change depending on my on call schedule, however we just rotate the days around - last week date night was thursday due to this.

My audition rotations were the hardest though - I was gone in another state for nearly 6 months.. that was hard on my wife and kids.
 
I appreciate the candidness of your answers. It is good to see the transparency. I was hoping you would reference a book you used for learning your study method. Google didnt help much looking for those terms you mentioned, I found a bunch of binaural beats and "brain" music 🙂.
 
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I appreciate the candidness of your answers. It is good to see the transparency. I was hoping you would reference a book you used for learning your study method. Google didnt help much looking for those terms you mentioned, I found a bunch of binaural beats and "brain" music 🙂.
my favorite book -- go read the first half at the library -- is the four hour work week by timothy ferris,, he explains the concepts of focused learning/working over volume (the rest is about internet marketing,sales). I read the three books he references on the concept of focused learning.

do a search for neurolinguistic programming.. this is the foundation of the four hour work week but timothy takes some of the "voodoo" out of it.
 
I would disagree with nearly everything said in this post and I would ignore most of it. I believe it is a divorce, burnout, etc in the making. Yes there are plenty of mature students that are traditional, but honestly having many years in the professional world sets the non traditional student apart in a huge way.

Here is my advice

I was a father of two with one on the way when I matriculated to med school (leaving with four, what can i say, my wife thinks I'm hot!).

first and foremost my priority is and will always be my family. This means that I did NOT have many friends in my class and it means I did NOT join many study groups and during clinical rotations I didnt go out with the residents after work... my time away from school/studies were with my family. I rarely did anything just for me, and I chose and learned that my relaxation/get away was my family.. and when I did something for myself I had made sure my father priorities were done first. studies have shown that those who identified themselves as just a "doctor" or "medical student" were at higher risks of burnout.

So things that helped --

(1) we got a home close to school so my wife could bring the kids to lunch. I ate lunch with them most days. then played around the school grounds, volleyball court, gym -- my school has a great gym facility,basketball court and volleyball courts. We did this on rotations as well

(2) I enrolled my wife into studying and helping me. we would cuddle in bed and she would quiz me with flash cards, test materials, etc. To add a little incentive I would rub her back while she did this. Some of my funniest memories of med school was listening to my wife butcher medical lingo - and then on sunday have conversations with her friends at church where she would act like she knew all this medical material. It made me smile and laugh. Really this was huge for me. My wife bought into the idea that we were going to medical school together and when I did well, she did well. We would celebrate with a mcdonalds ice cream or something when I aced a test. Basically my wife really earned a medical degree with me. She probably could run circles around some medical students. shes kind of a "dumb blonde" personality so if my wife can do it, anyones can.

(3) I am a firm believer that focused studying beats volume studying anyday (see previous posts). I would set at time to study for 1 hour, super focus, learn, read and when the timer goes off I would stop for 30 minutes, go play with my kids, help with dinner -- timer goes off after 30 minutes I would go back to studying. using visual cues (markers, underlining, circling, staring) are part of this super focused learning. There are a few books out there on this process. Locking yourself in a room, studying all the time is a sure way to burnout, hate medicine and want to leave. Its why many students say "the first year is hell" - they think they need to study more, its the exact opposite. Study less but study effectively!!!

(4) I avoided lectures at all costs. These eat up so much time. I wanted to learn at my pace. So I would record lectures and listen to them at 1.6X speed, go over notes a week in advance so that all i would do was listen to the spots of the lecture I needed a little help with. I believe the lecture format is an old model that should be changed.

(5) study groups - i mentioned this before.. i wanted to learn at my own pace and often times study groups end up having long conversations NOT about school, or someone is struggling to understand which holds back the learning. This sounds kind of selfish but its the reality of study groups. I didnt have the time or luxury to participate.

(6) SLEEP!! important to me. I never pulled all nighters (only when on call). I felt they do more damage than good - eating into the next day as well. If i needed an all nighter its becasue I didnt learn the material appropriately the first time. Studying for a test for me was a simple review of material I already understood. Memorizing this information does take time. But going into a study session for a test, understanding the concepts, made memorizing easy.

(7) date night with wife - invaluable for maintaining a solid relationship. at least once a week. finding a group of 3or 4 families and then rotating babysitting is the best way. All the kids would be dropped off for 2.5 hours to one family already haven had dinner. Therefore we had one crazy saturday for 2.5 hours but then free babysitter 3 saturdays of the month. we have a large backyard with a huge play set so we just sent the kids outside with cupcakes or something.. whallo! our 2.5 hours were up in no time.

(8) I love the motto "adjust and continue" - if something didnt work or a study session was bad I would quickly identify why then adjust. Example.. I learned quickly that studying at home during the day (8-5) was pretty detrimental because "dad was home!" or my wife would ask for my help -- so I stayed at school until 5ish studying at the library. sometimes I would come home earlier but not if I knew I needed to get good studying in.

(9) We taught our kids that when dad is in the office - its "do not disturb".. basically we also had to buy a lock for the door so that I could study. I could do this and not feel guilty because I knew in an hour from going in, I'd be out to play or help around the house.

(10) - lastly (sorry for those who are not religious or spiritual).. my wife and I are committed physically, emotionally and spiritually. We committed that nothing would stand in our way of having a solid and close family dedicated to GOD and providing an awesome life for them. I understood that in the grand scheme of things my family is more important and if my grades slipped (NOT because I didnt try but because a family priority came up or church responsibility) then so be it. I believe because I put my family and god first i was blessed. yes there were days I wasnt around for my kids and days I couldnt "fulfill" my church responsibilities myself (i just asked for help though). But overall we followed my family's motto "Do your best and let God do the rest" (yes pretty cheezy but good none the less -- it sounds better when a chorus of a 7 year old girl, a 5 and a 3 year old boy are saying it at night after our family prayers)

thats all i can think of right now.

This was a fantastic post. Thank you for taking the time to write this. I'm starting school this August and getting married this September to a man I've been with for 6+ years. You hear so many bitter SDNers on here when it comes to marriage during medical school. It's nice to hear from people with the same view of marriage and school as me. 👍 🙂
 
most difficult for me: going from a business owner managing a 1 million gross revenue company and 7 employees to living as a student again. I had to really become humble. It was difficult to switch roles financially and emotionally.

Best thing: I was established on who I was and where I wanted to go. Younger students often are still playing games, figuring out where and what they want to accomplish and wanting to "party on the weekend", etc which was detrimental to grades and learning.

Thanks for doing this! It is rare to get to ask questions of someone that doesn't want to make you feel like it is impossible or not worth it 🙂 I have a question if you are still up for answering:

1. Based on your comments above, were you the spouse in the relationship that carried the health insurance coverage, had the stable income (if not only income?) Or did you both have full time positions in which your wife could cover all of you medically and financially?

2. What type of income did you have previous to leaving for school? Not looking for $ amount 🙂 6 figures or less? Thanks!!!
 
I would disagree with nearly everything said in this post and I would ignore most of it. I believe it is a divorce, burnout, etc in the making. Yes there are plenty of mature students that are traditional, but honestly having many years in the professional world sets the non traditional student apart in a huge way.

Here is my advice

I was a father of two with one on the way when I matriculated to med school (leaving with four, what can i say, my wife thinks I'm hot!).

first and foremost my priority is and will always be my family. This means that I did NOT have many friends in my class and it means I did NOT join many study groups and during clinical rotations I didnt go out with the residents after work... my time away from school/studies were with my family. I rarely did anything just for me, and I chose and learned that my relaxation/get away was my family.. and when I did something for myself I had made sure my father priorities were done first. studies have shown that those who identified themselves as just a "doctor" or "medical student" were at higher risks of burnout.

So things that helped --

(1) we got a home close to school so my wife could bring the kids to lunch. I ate lunch with them most days. then played around the school grounds, volleyball court, gym -- my school has a great gym facility,basketball court and volleyball courts. We did this on rotations as well

(2) I enrolled my wife into studying and helping me. we would cuddle in bed and she would quiz me with flash cards, test materials, etc. To add a little incentive I would rub her back while she did this. Some of my funniest memories of med school was listening to my wife butcher medical lingo - and then on sunday have conversations with her friends at church where she would act like she knew all this medical material. It made me smile and laugh. Really this was huge for me. My wife bought into the idea that we were going to medical school together and when I did well, she did well. We would celebrate with a mcdonalds ice cream or something when I aced a test. Basically my wife really earned a medical degree with me. She probably could run circles around some medical students. shes kind of a "dumb blonde" personality so if my wife can do it, anyones can.

(3) I am a firm believer that focused studying beats volume studying anyday (see previous posts). I would set at time to study for 1 hour, super focus, learn, read and when the timer goes off I would stop for 30 minutes, go play with my kids, help with dinner -- timer goes off after 30 minutes I would go back to studying. using visual cues (markers, underlining, circling, staring) are part of this super focused learning. There are a few books out there on this process. Locking yourself in a room, studying all the time is a sure way to burnout, hate medicine and want to leave. Its why many students say "the first year is hell" - they think they need to study more, its the exact opposite. Study less but study effectively!!!

(4) I avoided lectures at all costs. These eat up so much time. I wanted to learn at my pace. So I would record lectures and listen to them at 1.6X speed, go over notes a week in advance so that all i would do was listen to the spots of the lecture I needed a little help with. I believe the lecture format is an old model that should be changed.

(5) study groups - i mentioned this before.. i wanted to learn at my own pace and often times study groups end up having long conversations NOT about school, or someone is struggling to understand which holds back the learning. This sounds kind of selfish but its the reality of study groups. I didnt have the time or luxury to participate.

(6) SLEEP!! important to me. I never pulled all nighters (only when on call). I felt they do more damage than good - eating into the next day as well. If i needed an all nighter its becasue I didnt learn the material appropriately the first time. Studying for a test for me was a simple review of material I already understood. Memorizing this information does take time. But going into a study session for a test, understanding the concepts, made memorizing easy.

(7) date night with wife - invaluable for maintaining a solid relationship. at least once a week. finding a group of 3or 4 families and then rotating babysitting is the best way. All the kids would be dropped off for 2.5 hours to one family already haven had dinner. Therefore we had one crazy saturday for 2.5 hours but then free babysitter 3 saturdays of the month. we have a large backyard with a huge play set so we just sent the kids outside with cupcakes or something.. whallo! our 2.5 hours were up in no time.

(8) I love the motto "adjust and continue" - if something didnt work or a study session was bad I would quickly identify why then adjust. Example.. I learned quickly that studying at home during the day (8-5) was pretty detrimental because "dad was home!" or my wife would ask for my help -- so I stayed at school until 5ish studying at the library. sometimes I would come home earlier but not if I knew I needed to get good studying in.

(9) We taught our kids that when dad is in the office - its "do not disturb".. basically we also had to buy a lock for the door so that I could study. I could do this and not feel guilty because I knew in an hour from going in, I'd be out to play or help around the house.

(10) - lastly (sorry for those who are not religious or spiritual).. my wife and I are committed physically, emotionally and spiritually. We committed that nothing would stand in our way of having a solid and close family dedicated to GOD and providing an awesome life for them. I understood that in the grand scheme of things my family is more important and if my grades slipped (NOT because I didnt try but because a family priority came up or church responsibility) then so be it. I believe because I put my family and god first i was blessed. yes there were days I wasnt around for my kids and days I couldnt "fulfill" my church responsibilities myself (i just asked for help though). But overall we followed my family's motto "Do your best and let God do the rest" (yes pretty cheezy but good none the less -- it sounds better when a chorus of a 7 year old girl, a 5 and a 3 year old boy are saying it at night after our family prayers)

thats all i can think of right now.

This type of perspective is what often makes older, non-traditional types of students more successful than the traditional type.
 
Which books would you recommend for the focused learning you've mentioned?
 
I don't have a question but this post is very helpful. I am considering going back and the only thing that has prevented me from trying is the fact that I have some previous student loans. You last post breaking down your debt helps me realize that it is possible to handle.
 
Thanks for great info. As others have said, it makes a big difference hearing how others have succeeded. I do wish that there was a female in a similar age/life stage that could give some insight as well.
 
Thanks for doing this! It is rare to get to ask questions of someone that doesn't want to make you feel like it is impossible or not worth it 🙂 I have a question if you are still up for answering:

1. Based on your comments above, were you the spouse in the relationship that carried the health insurance coverage, had the stable income (if not only income?) Or did you both have full time positions in which your wife could cover all of you medically and financially?

2. What type of income did you have previous to leaving for school? Not looking for $ amount 🙂 6 figures or less? Thanks!!!
No i was the "bread winner" in the family. My wife was a phenom mother of three. She does a side blog which brings in about 200-400 bucks a month but her role was a full time mother and an awesome help to me.

I made 70K a year and my job provided health care.. we paid for the first two years of school but when clinicals hit I couldnt work much so we actually went on the states health insurance plan. Something Im not proud of but was a neccessity for us.
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer questions...I must say that I have found the questions and responses very informative! It's very nice to hear that you were able to have quality time with your family and manage time to study.

I was curious how your Step 1 studying went? This is what I'm most worried about with having a family. I heard that most medical students take a couple months off just to study. Did you have to adjust your schedule with your family during this time or were you able to maintain a similar schedule for the first two years? Did you feel you studied the amount you intended and that you achieved the score you desired? Thanks again!
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer questions...I must say that I have found the questions and responses very informative! It's very nice to hear that you were able to have quality time with your family and manage time to study.

I was curious how your Step 1 studying went? This is what I'm most worried about with having a family. I heard that most medical students take a couple months off just to study. Did you have to adjust your schedule with your family during this time or were you able to maintain a similar schedule for the first two years? Did you feel you studied the amount you intended and that you achieved the score you desired? Thanks again!
You really cant take months off from school to study.. typically for step one (taken after first year) student schedule it mid summer so that they have a month or so of devoted studying.Yes my schedule changed a bit but because I scheduled it 6 weeks into summer break it didnt feel much different.

Younger/traditional students I think have more of a problem because they are used to summer breaks from college. I hadnt had a summer break in a long time so it was the status quo with less time actually.

I would put in 3-6 hours of studying a day (one day cut back to 1-2 and just hang out with family) leading up to my step one (see above on how I study.. 1 hour of focused learning 30 minutes jumping on trampoline with kids or something.. repeat, avoids burnout)

HOWEVER i started doing step one questions banks 5 months in advance. The key to these tests is not really knowledge (yes its important but you'll see they use the same piece of knowledge over and over, just asked in different ways).. but understanding what the question wants. I took about 4 practice tests to get the rhythm and practice the length of time to build endurance. I think the endurance and unknown unseat a lot of students, particularly heading into the afternoon session.

So I would start question banks (UWORLD best) 5-6 months before, use the questions to study for current classes. (I found pulling out neuroanatomy questions helped me ace neuroanatomy with a 98%, huge difference). I would take the questions in tutor mode initially, read the answer break down and take notes. Later I would take 50 question blocks timed so as to practice similar to the real test blocks.

I really think practicing to read and understand questions is just as important as knowledge. They can only ask questions a certain way and if you hit them enough, no matter what the material, you'll know exactly what they are looking for. I learned to read the last sentence first, so when I went through the question stem I knew what I was looking for and eliminated half the crap and distractors in the question itself. Takes a lot of practice but thats why I think I was successful.

USMLE step 1- 247
USMLE step 2- 253

OH ya -- gojan is golden for step one. I would definitely listen to his step one audio course. I also used first aid, and microcards by sanjiv harpavat (just memorize the gram +/-,fungal,anaerobe flow graphs and you'll have pretty much everything you need for micro, use it for class too)
 
Hey Orthojoe,

Like others, I just want to say thanks for sharing your story and answering questions. It's a huge relief to hear it can be done in ortho as a non-trad. I interviewed for research positions in decent programs for my gap year, and I encountered a fair amount of subtle "ageism" from ortho department chairs and faculty. Your tale is encouraging. Cheers.
 
Thanks for great info. As others have said, it makes a big difference hearing how others have succeeded. I do wish that there was a female in a similar age/life stage that could give some insight as well.

What would you like to know? I was 32 with three kids - 5, 3 and 3 when I started. I am not at all religious, and I didn't do all of the things orthojoe mentioned in his excellent list, but I completely agree that focussing on marriage and family while in medschool and residency is not only do-able but essential.

During med school, I worked 60 hours a week at school. Rotations which are 90 hours a week are tougher, but we still make time for a weekly date night, dinner with extended family once a week and as much time with the kids as possible. We made the decision to home school so that when I am post call, I can see the kids and so that my vacation time does not have to be during the school holidays to be useful. My husband works about thirty hours a week doing consulting, most of which work is done from 5 am to 9 am before the kids get up.

I chose family medicine because I am a generalist and I like ambulatory medicine, but I could easily have matched to another specialty. My experience, time management, communication skills and ability to empathize with patients are remarked on often, and people are delighted to find out that I am non traditional.

Anyway, not to highjack this great thread, but I'm happy to answer things from a female perspective.
 
Advice for USMLE step 2?
step 2 is more geared towards treatment/management.. they give you a stem.. you must figure out the diagnoses and then the first line treatment/imaging (second step) then what to do next if second step doesnt work or not indicated (third step). So a much more complex thought process. They love the question "whats the next step"

Again the key is Qbanks because the more you practice that style of question the better your thinking. Uworld is by far the best!!

My school did shelf exams after every clinical rotation so I used qbanks to study for the shelf exams. Then started to hit Uworld december of my third year. Took step 2 3 weeks after finishing third year because I think that is when you are best prepared. Doing well in your clinicals is key because it helps you develop critical thinking skills which are required.

Master the boards step II is the best book out there. It goes through what "the next best step" to do is very concisely instead of FA which throws it all in one giant pile without putting emphasis on priorities.

I also memorized the normal for the most common labs (CBC, CMP, ABGs, lipids)... I did this during my internal medicine rotation. It made reading the question stems so easy because I wasnt flipping back and forth to the reference chart. I then highlighted the abnormal labs so they stood out.. very helpful.

Again I will reiterate that reading the last sentence (the main question) first, so that when I went through the stem I was able to eliminate junk material right away. Saved me huge amounts of time and headache. I was able to review every block for a good amount of time.

Take practice tests to get endurance down.. I took three of them.
 
I don't really have a question... EDIT: maybe i do ^_^

You are amazing! To say the least... I am not as non-traditional as most but I still have gripping fear.
I am 21 with a 2 year old and infant, and because of having children am a few years behind my high school classmates (ugrad soph). I worry that I will not be able to fulfill my obligations as a wife and mother during medical school. My stomach hurts just thinking about that fear. Right now I am pretty much the bread winner, I've had tremendous success for my age making around 50k this year =) but my husband makes ~25k and I'm afraid of him not being able to provide for us if I can't.... again FEAR
I know we could live off of less, but it's the uncertainty I guess. We don't have much of a cushion.

How have you been able to do so many activities with your kids. Is there crazy scheduling going on? Does your wife do most of the planning and you adjust your other obligations vice versa? It just sounds like you do sooo much, and I barely find enough time to spend with my family now as an ugrad working ~48/hr a week. Guess I am just looking for advice about maintaining a family, because it sounds like you have kept yours perfectly intact. =)
 
not perfect thats for sure. there are days (yesterday was one) where I just want to get away and my wife and I struggle communicating, I actually slept in another room last night because I needed space.. but this morning we chatted while getting our kids ready for school, had a quick cuddle, reset for the day and moved on. Can't wait for date night tonight -- actually we are just doing a redbox cuddled on the couch with DQ blizzard tonight, had too many expenses we didnt plan for last month.

But yes I think we have done well despite the issues. I really think it comes down to communicating well with your spouse and trying to meet their needs. The example of my wife helping me study while I rubbed her back is a great example. We have tons of those types of give and takes. Usually one Friday night a month I get together with "the guys" and live our glory days playing on the xbox - in exchange my wife has a "girls" night. Being willing to sacrifice for each other, and communicating when things go wrong is the key.

I actually suggested to my wife before we got married, that we do some marriage counseling and develop better communication skills before we made a lifelong commitment (yes my friends heckled me night and day about that, but now I laugh because my wife still thinks I'm hot and acts on it-- probably not too appropriate for SDN but its the truth). I think every day we just do our best and have family as the number one priority.. an example of this-- if i got off rotations earlier i'd text my wife and she would drop most everything to get the kids ready for a quick park trip or pick up a redbox movie. Its a constant communication with adjustments..

We use the app "cozi" to keep our schedules synced and our "to do" lists visible. Often when I come home from rotations, if I noticed she didnt make it to walmart for groceries that day, I'd stop on my way home to pick them up (her grocery list already available on cozi). It has helped us stay on the same path together.

Lastly, I know that my wife will never "purposely" hurt me. It I am hurt or frustrated with her its usually out of some mis-communication. with this attitude neither of us hold grudges and let go of problems much more easier.
 
We had counseling before and in the first year of marriage too. We are young so it was a smart decision. Communication is definitely key, and I am glad to say ours is great. Anyways most people want to know about your med school career so I won't hijack any further. I'll PM with my other q's
 
I would disagree with nearly everything said in this post and I would ignore most of it. I believe it is a divorce, burnout, etc in the making. Yes there are plenty of mature students that are traditional, but honestly having many years in the professional world sets the non traditional student apart in a huge way.

Here is my advice

I was a father of two with one on the way when I matriculated to med school (leaving with four, what can i say, my wife thinks I'm hot!).

first and foremost my priority is and will always be my family. This means that I did NOT have many friends in my class and it means I did NOT join many study groups and during clinical rotations I didnt go out with the residents after work... my time away from school/studies were with my family. I rarely did anything just for me, and I chose and learned that my relaxation/get away was my family.. and when I did something for myself I had made sure my father priorities were done first. studies have shown that those who identified themselves as just a "doctor" or "medical student" were at higher risks of burnout.

So things that helped --

(1) we got a home close to school so my wife could bring the kids to lunch. I ate lunch with them most days. then played around the school grounds, volleyball court, gym -- my school has a great gym facility,basketball court and volleyball courts. We did this on rotations as well

(2) I enrolled my wife into studying and helping me. we would cuddle in bed and she would quiz me with flash cards, test materials, etc. To add a little incentive I would rub her back while she did this. Some of my funniest memories of med school was listening to my wife butcher medical lingo - and then on sunday have conversations with her friends at church where she would act like she knew all this medical material. It made me smile and laugh. Really this was huge for me. My wife bought into the idea that we were going to medical school together and when I did well, she did well. We would celebrate with a mcdonalds ice cream or something when I aced a test. Basically my wife really earned a medical degree with me. She probably could run circles around some medical students. shes kind of a "dumb blonde" personality so if my wife can do it, anyones can.

(3) I am a firm believer that focused studying beats volume studying anyday (see previous posts). I would set at time to study for 1 hour, super focus, learn, read and when the timer goes off I would stop for 30 minutes, go play with my kids, help with dinner -- timer goes off after 30 minutes I would go back to studying. using visual cues (markers, underlining, circling, staring) are part of this super focused learning. There are a few books out there on this process. Locking yourself in a room, studying all the time is a sure way to burnout, hate medicine and want to leave. Its why many students say "the first year is hell" - they think they need to study more, its the exact opposite. Study less but study effectively!!!

(4) I avoided lectures at all costs. These eat up so much time. I wanted to learn at my pace. So I would record lectures and listen to them at 1.6X speed, go over notes a week in advance so that all i would do was listen to the spots of the lecture I needed a little help with. I believe the lecture format is an old model that should be changed.

(5) study groups - i mentioned this before.. i wanted to learn at my own pace and often times study groups end up having long conversations NOT about school, or someone is struggling to understand which holds back the learning. This sounds kind of selfish but its the reality of study groups. I didnt have the time or luxury to participate.

(6) SLEEP!! important to me. I never pulled all nighters (only when on call). I felt they do more damage than good - eating into the next day as well. If i needed an all nighter its becasue I didnt learn the material appropriately the first time. Studying for a test for me was a simple review of material I already understood. Memorizing this information does take time. But going into a study session for a test, understanding the concepts, made memorizing easy.

(7) date night with wife - invaluable for maintaining a solid relationship. at least once a week. finding a group of 3or 4 families and then rotating babysitting is the best way. All the kids would be dropped off for 2.5 hours to one family already haven had dinner. Therefore we had one crazy saturday for 2.5 hours but then free babysitter 3 saturdays of the month. we have a large backyard with a huge play set so we just sent the kids outside with cupcakes or something.. whallo! our 2.5 hours were up in no time.

(8) I love the motto "adjust and continue" - if something didnt work or a study session was bad I would quickly identify why then adjust. Example.. I learned quickly that studying at home during the day (8-5) was pretty detrimental because "dad was home!" or my wife would ask for my help -- so I stayed at school until 5ish studying at the library. sometimes I would come home earlier but not if I knew I needed to get good studying in.

(9) We taught our kids that when dad is in the office - its "do not disturb".. basically we also had to buy a lock for the door so that I could study. I could do this and not feel guilty because I knew in an hour from going in, I'd be out to play or help around the house.

(10) - lastly (sorry for those who are not religious or spiritual).. my wife and I are committed physically, emotionally and spiritually. We committed that nothing would stand in our way of having a solid and close family dedicated to GOD and providing an awesome life for them. I understood that in the grand scheme of things my family is more important and if my grades slipped (NOT because I didnt try but because a family priority came up or church responsibility) then so be it. I believe because I put my family and god first i was blessed. yes there were days I wasnt around for my kids and days I couldnt "fulfill" my church responsibilities myself (i just asked for help though). But overall we followed my family's motto "Do your best and let God do the rest" (yes pretty cheezy but good none the less -- it sounds better when a chorus of a 7 year old girl, a 5 and a 3 year old boy are saying it at night after our family prayers)

thats all i can think of right now.

Thanks for this.
 
We use the app "cozi" to keep our schedules synced and our "to do" lists visible. Often when I come home from rotations, if I noticed she didnt make it to walmart for groceries that day, I'd stop on my way home to pick them up (her grocery list already available on cozi). It has helped us stay on the same path together.

Ahhhhhhhh this sounds like such a useful app!
 
Thank you all for sharing what has worked for you. Being the kind of partner and mother I want to be for my family has been my biggest worry about continuing on this path. It's refreshing to read about your successes.
 
What would you like to know? I was 32 with three kids

This may very well be my situation, mother of 3 starting med school around 31-32yrs. You and OrthoJoe are a source of motivation. I feel like I can have my cake and eat it too, since I started my family before starting medical school.
 
Since I got very few replys on my thread (I do appreciate the ones that did reply), I thought I might ask you. since you have been through the entire process. Here was my post

I have been working as an Occupational therapist for about a year now, and really considering a career in medicine. It is a really fulfilling career, but does not give me too much of a challege and would not let me acheive my aspirations I have an undergraduate degree in Biology and psychology minor with C's in most prereq courses and 3.2 overall GPA, and I have an MSc.in Occupational with some science classes with an Overall GPA of a 3.7. I am curently doing research in neuroscience with a psychiatrist and as a therapist in a well known acedemic medical center I have lots of clinical experience, but I can also shadow Drs. if I so choose. So what would be the best course of action for me? I know in general that should get 32+ on the MCATs. I am thinking about getting an MSc. in neurobiology to boost my GPA and make me competitive for neurobiology Phd Programs. Or do I need to retake the prereqs agian, I graduated in 08 and by the time I apply I not sure if the medical schools will accept them.

thanks for your input. Congrats on matching in ortho.

Only undergraduate classes will be calculated into the AMCAS GPA. A graduate GPA will be provided, but is weighed less heavily because 1) most students don't have this and this is more or less viewed like an extra activity rather than required core class and 2) most graduate programs are known for generous grading.
 
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