Non-trad MD/PhD advice

[dropkick23]

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Hello, this is my first post on these forums and I am an avid reader of the threads.

I was hoping to get some advice. I am interested in obtaining both PhD and MD degrees. I have a passion for research (neuroscience) and clinical work (neurology or psychiatry) and I'd love to do both in my career even if it takes me a long time (I'm already getting up there).

A brief history of myself: Right now I am 27 and about to start my second year of a neuroscience masters program that will be finished sometime early next year. I am working with transgenic mice that have similar morphological and behavioral characteristics as schizophrenic humans because of increased dopamine transmission caused by underdeveloped dopaminergic neurons. I had a 3.58 undergraduate GPA, 3.68 BCMP with a Psychology major and Math minor (graduated in 2002). I had 4 Ws, 2 somewhat as a result to an injury that required surgery that occured at the same time I decided to switch to a Psych major. I came into school with almost 30 credits so I didn't think withdrawing from a few classes or not taking on massive course loads would matter (didnt even consider med or grad school at the time), and I still finished a semester early. My post bac GPA is 3.77 (3.75 BCMP) with just the med school prereqs. I took the MCAT twice already 23R (9B, 9P, 5V) and 27Q (10B, 10P, 7V). In between graduating and my masters I worked full time (non-medical/research). I have good volunteer experience at hospitals and other places and I will continue to volunteer throughout the semester at a Neurology stroke department.

My question is, what would be the best route to get both degrees? I am planning on retaking MCAT again in January and so far I've taken 5 full length exams directly from AMCAS site and have been scoring between 30-33 consistently (verbal between 9-11). Here are my options:

1) Finish my masters degree in the spring of 2008, I should have 2-3 publications (one pending already), a few poster presentations and two very good recommendations from PIs (this is my only research experience so far). Take the MCAT and score between 30-34 (goal = 32). Take upper level undergraduate classes for the next two semesters while doing masters research (I would only need to do graduate level classes if I decided to enter the PhD program, my graduate GPA is 3.97 in the courses that I needed for Masters, which includes research credits). Raise my undergraduate GPA to around 3.70/3.80 BCPM and prove that I can handle upper level biology classes (that I am interested in taking anyway because I lack a biology background) during a busy schedule. Get a full-time research job in the year before matriculation and continue volunteering in a clinical setting. Apply to many many MD/PhD programs (at 28 years old). I would be (hopefully) be about 36-37 years old at the time of starting residency (but with limited debt).

2) Finish my PhD first and then apply to medical school at age 30 or 31. I wouldn't be allowed to transfer into the PhD program until 2008/09 and then I would receive a stipend and MAYBE be done in two more years (four total) but most likely five total. Then apply to medical schools. I would be about 34 or 35 years old when I'm done and in alot of debt (I'm in a fair amount already).

Assuming my MCAT raises above a 30 (hopefully 32-34, I am much more determined and focused now than in the past and I wholeheartedly believe this is possible), would MD/PhD or MSTP programs around the country give me a shot? Would my first two sub-par MCATs kill my chances? I'd really love to leave the area and start a new life in a nicer city and institution. Option two however would be safer with a much higher chance of completing of both degrees. I really love my lab and research that I'm doing and I can get out of there in a timely manner.

Is it worth it for me to take undergraduate classes while in my masters or stick with the graduate classes that cover basically the same material (that I would need for PhD)? From what I've read medical school don't give too much of a crap about graduate school course loads. And finally (and perhaps most importantly), are there any drawbacks to getting a PhD and MD at separate institutions compared to both at once? Will this hold me back for jobs in the future compared to straight MSTPers? Will I be too "rusty" after med school and residency to perform well at research right away?

Thank you for reading this mess and any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[drizzt3117]

I think it's going to harder to convince a MD/PhD program to take older applicants simply because they're going to get less years of research out of their investment. You will be competing against candidates with significantly better stats, as well, so you will need to dazzle them with the quality of your research if you hope to have a chance (i.e. first author publications in big name journals) IMO.

Getting the PhD first probably makes more sense.

 

[Foghorn]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=421681

 

[move2west]

Assuming my MCAT raises above a 30 (hopefully 32-34, I am much more determined and focused now than in the past and I wholeheartedly believe this is possible), would MD/PhD or MSTP programs around the country give me a shot? Would my first two sub-par MCATs kill my chances?

I asked this question last week, but I did not really get a response. I know a couple lurkers are also interested in this matter, so any information is greatly appreciated. Does a <30 prior MCAT score(s) ruin a persons chances of an acceptance even with a more recent score of 30+?

 

[OncDoc19]

I asked this question last week, but I did not really get a response. I know a couple lurkers are also interested in this matter, so any information is greatly appreciated. Does a <30 prior MCAT score(s) ruin a persons chances of an acceptance even with a more recent score of 30+?

I think you can overcome one low MCAT, but more than one, I don't know. Depends on the school really, because each school has a different way of averaging multiple MCATs. If the score are sufficiently old (more than 3 years) maybe schools don't even consider them because they have expired, but I don't know.

 

[solitude]

I asked this question last week, but I did not really get a response. I know a couple lurkers are also interested in this matter, so any information is greatly appreciated. Does a <30 prior MCAT score(s) ruin a persons chances of an acceptance even with a more recent score of 30+?

I don't know the answer personally, but I think there was a thread on here a while ago about how different MSTPs view multiple MCAT scores, so that might be able to help. You (or lurkers) could also call the schools and see if they will give you a straight answer.

 

[bottles999]

Hello, this is my first post on these forums and I am an avid reader of the threads.

I was hoping to get some advice. I am interested in obtaining both PhD and MD degrees. I have a passion for research (neuroscience) and clinical work (neurology or psychiatry) and I'd love to do both in my career even if it takes me a long time (I'm already getting up there).

A brief history of myself: Right now I am 27 and about to start my second year of a neuroscience masters program that will be finished sometime early next year. I am working with transgenic mice that have similar morphological and behavioral characteristics as schizophrenic humans because of increased dopamine transmission caused by underdeveloped dopaminergic neurons. I had a 3.58 undergraduate GPA, 3.68 BCMP with a Psychology major and Math minor (graduated in 2002). I had 4 Ws, 2 somewhat as a result to an injury that required surgery that occured at the same time I decided to switch to a Psych major. I came into school with almost 30 credits so I didn't think withdrawing from a few classes or not taking on massive course loads would matter (didnt even consider med or grad school at the time), and I still finished a semester early. My post bac GPA is 3.77 (3.75 BCMP) with just the med school prereqs. I took the MCAT twice already 23R (9B, 9P, 5V) and 27Q (10B, 10P, 7V). In between graduating and my masters I worked full time (non-medical/research). I have good volunteer experience at hospitals and other places and I will continue to volunteer throughout the semester at a Neurology stroke department.

My question is, what would be the best route to get both degrees? I am planning on retaking MCAT again in January and so far I've taken 5 full length exams directly from AMCAS site and have been scoring between 30-33 consistently (verbal between 9-11). Here are my options:

1) Finish my masters degree in the spring of 2008, I should have 2-3 publications (one pending already), a few poster presentations and two very good recommendations from PIs (this is my only research experience so far). Take the MCAT and score between 30-34 (goal = 32). Take upper level undergraduate classes for the next two semesters while doing masters research (I would only need to do graduate level classes if I decided to enter the PhD program, my graduate GPA is 3.97 in the courses that I needed for Masters, which includes research credits). Raise my undergraduate GPA to around 3.70/3.80 BCPM and prove that I can handle upper level biology classes (that I am interested in taking anyway because I lack a biology background) during a busy schedule. Get a full-time research job in the year before matriculation and continue volunteering in a clinical setting. Apply to many many MD/PhD programs (at 28 years old). I would be (hopefully) be about 36-37 years old at the time of starting residency (but with limited debt).

2) Finish my PhD first and then apply to medical school at age 30 or 31. I wouldn't be allowed to transfer into the PhD program until 2008/09 and then I would receive a stipend and MAYBE be done in two more years (four total) but most likely five total. Then apply to medical schools. I would be about 34 or 35 years old when I'm done and in alot of debt (I'm in a fair amount already).

Assuming my MCAT raises above a 30 (hopefully 32-34, I am much more determined and focused now than in the past and I wholeheartedly believe this is possible), would MD/PhD or MSTP programs around the country give me a shot? Would my first two sub-par MCATs kill my chances? I'd really love to leave the area and start a new life in a nicer city and institution. Option two however would be safer with a much higher chance of completing of both degrees. I really love my lab and research that I'm doing and I can get out of there in a timely manner.

Is it worth it for me to take undergraduate classes while in my masters or stick with the graduate classes that cover basically the same material (that I would need for PhD)? From what I've read medical school don't give too much of a crap about graduate school course loads. And finally (and perhaps most importantly), are there any drawbacks to getting a PhD and MD at separate institutions compared to both at once? Will this hold me back for jobs in the future compared to straight MSTPers? Will I be too "rusty" after med school and residency to perform well at research right away?

Thank you for reading this mess and any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Two comments off the bat....

1. Age is NOT a limiting factor everywhere. There may be some institutions that dont look kindly to older MD-PhD apps. However, there will be options. I am a much older MD-PhD starting MS1, literally tomorrow, than you. So It can be done at almost any age.

2. Your MCAT scores are you biggest problem. You GPA is solid, though not stellar. The research sounds right on target and ahead of alot. However, that will be all for naught w/o a 30+ MCAT score. Your current 27 is not enough to get accepted to an combined program. It could get you into an MD only program, depending on the school.

As for you delima... The choice is yours. What do you want to do. There is nothing wrong with getting the PhD 1st and the MD degree later or the other way around. If your worried about debt load and student loans hitting while in residency, you can have them defferred till after residency too or some min payment plan established.

The only benefit to getting the combined degree together is some programs will cut down the requirements for graduation. Like where I am at, MS1/MS2 count as 20 credit hrs of classwork for the Graduate PhD program. At one other place I interviewed, it counted as 30 credit hrs and they waived the Qualifying exams requirement, in lue of Step 1. If you did the two programs sequentially you'd lose that perk.

Good luck

 

[xanthines]

Bottles999 seems to be pretty spot on in my opinion. 👍

Being full of scientist types, you better believe that most programs track performance and correlate it with GPA/MCAT. Scientists love numbers! 🙄 That doesn't mean you need a 40, but I think most programs do have some kind of threshold (strict or fuzzy otherwise) dealing either GPA, MCAT or both.

Depending on the program, there are other benefits than the ones bottles999 mentioned. My school has a few allowances for students to go to conferences, set up speakers for just MSTP students, and money to just have fun (in the name of team spirit or something). We also take regular grad school classes on top of med school b/c the director fights hard against curriculum changes that would make that impossible. This way we get credit for med school and any kind of other required/elective courses not covered by the MS1/MS2 years. Also, having both grad school and med school paid for is a pretty nice perk if you ask me. 😎

So yeah, you're MCAT is hurting you the most.

I started MS1 when I was 26, FYI.

-X

Two comments off the bat....

1. Age is NOT a limiting factor everywhere. There may be some institutions that dont look kindly to older MD-PhD apps. However, there will be options. I am a much older MD-PhD starting MS1, literally tomorrow, than you. So It can be done at almost any age.

2. Your MCAT scores are you biggest problem. You GPA is solid, though not stellar. The research sounds right on target and ahead of alot. However, that will be all for naught w/o a 30+ MCAT score. Your current 27 is not enough to get accepted to an combined program. It could get you into an MD only program, depending on the school.

As for you delima... The choice is yours. What do you want to do. There is nothing wrong with getting the PhD 1st and the MD degree later or the other way around. If your worried about debt load and student loans hitting while in residency, you can have them defferred till after residency too or some min payment plan established.

The only benefit to getting the combined degree together is some programs will cut down the requirements for graduation. Like where I am at, MS1/MS2 count as 20 credit hrs of classwork for the Graduate PhD program. At one other place I interviewed, it counted as 30 credit hrs and they waived the Qualifying exams requirement, in lue of Step 1. If you did the two programs sequentially you'd lose that perk.

Good luck

 

[dropkick23]

Thank you for your input bottles and xanthines. MSTP programs seem amazing, I am jealous. I'll take the MCAT again in January and if I improve by 5 or so points I may give it a run. However since I really enjoy the research I'm doing now and it would be quicker to finish, it might be worth it to do the PhD now and then go for the med school thing (PhD is not a bad thing to fall back on).

As long as getting the degrees seperately doesn't hurt in the long run career-wise, I guess I can live without the "fun money" and MSTP parties. : (