Non-traditional MD/PhD Professions?

[OTheHorror]

I'm looking for information regarding job opportunities for someone with an MD/PhD that is interested in working more of a 40-50 hour week, making decent money (money isn't really a big issue). I realize this may limit the possibilities of doing competitive, academic research and/or having meaningful patient interaction.

What kind of careers are out there that utilize your MD/PhD that are not associated with the high-demand of academic research/dealing w/patients? I don' really like the idea of having to take my work home in order to stay competitive. I've heard of "industry," but I'm not really sure what that means.

Also, while I am not in love with the idea of medical research, I am committed to finishing my MD/PhD and do, in fact, quite enjoy the science.

Any info/ideas are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

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[uproarhz]

I've heard of "industry," but I'm not really sure what that means.

I'm not sure why you're not sure what industry means . But to clarify based on what I understand from your question, "industry" would refer to working in any one of those biotec companies like genentec or bristol myers or so forth that do biomedical research. I have heard that MD/PhDs are pretty sought after in the industry as you potentially have the expertise of two people and many drug designs and clinical trial need both expertise. Now as far as if this is a job that you could opt to not take home with you, I'm not sure if that is absolutely the case. Research is research no matter where you do it. If you are not rushing to submit papers you are trying to beat your competitors in getting patents and getting the drugs out first. But since I have never worked in industry my opinion is just that.
Good luck on finding something that fits your goals

 

[BDavis]

Research is research no matter where you do it. If you are not rushing to submit papers you are trying to beat your competitors in getting patents and getting the drugs out first. But since I have never worked in industry my opinion is just that.
Good luck on finding something that fits your goals

I agree with this statement, when I worked at Dow, instead of publications we strived for patents and internal publications (for Dow eyes only). Granted you do not work after hours in the lab doing benchwork (for liability reasons if something were to go wrong and you are the only one working), I spent my time after hours writing and preparing for the next experiment. The financial rewards (salary, benefits, 401K) and hours worked per week tend to be better than academics. On the other hand, industry will "retire" older scientists before 60 or just fire them (especially during the years 2001-2003) if they are not productive or the project that they are working on is unprofitable/not feasible. For smaller biotech firms, they offer smaller salaries with things like stock options (big potential to appreciate or be worthless), but the smaller firms can go belly-up sicne they have fewer products in the pipeline compared to Big-pharma.

 

[freddytn]

There is a wealth of opportunities available to MD/PhDs that aren't tied down to the tradiational academic / clinical routes. For example, there are some MD-PhDs like previously mentioned who will go into industry and get positions such as R&D managers / Medical Director and so on. Some also go into business. I know of one who decided to become a partner in a venture capital firm that deals with funding more science type companies. Then there are also those who decide to follow a more public policy route and work at the NIH or any of the other agencies to try and set policy for medical / clinical / translational research. Hope this helps.

-Freddy

 

[Primate]

In addition to the many above:

Management consulting (McKinsey, BCG, Bain). Very attractive for those who aren't going to follow the academic route, or private practice. Your training will be valued and rewarded. Lotta travel (good or bad, depending on your pref.).

Investment banking, starting as an analyst.

Venture capital will hire you, but getting to partner/principal takes quite a bit of time and often a stint in operational management (running all or part of a company like a biotech or in a pharmaco).

Working in a CRO (clinical research organization) designing and implementing clinical trials.

WHO/health policy - not just domestic (NIH as mentioned above).

 

[OTheHorror]

sweet!

thanks for the info

 

[DarkChild]

minor correction - with and MD (or MD/PhD) you'd start as an associate.
which is where people w/ MBAs start - and basically you push analysts around
for ****s and giggles: across the street, associates are basically guaranteed to make $1M over the course of 3 years (this is the recruiting pitch). Base pay is ~80-90K with the rest being made up with performance bonuses. After 3 years as an associate if you make the cut to VP, you get bumped up to about ~600-700K/year. Again the majority of that is in performance bonuses.
However, most folks with an MD - especially MD/PhDs - interested in finance, would be better served going in to a venture cap firm, or working in equity research at an investment bank. in equity research you basically get to know a particular industry in and out and have a real understanding for all the players. Your job is to give advice to investors (the public, or your investment bank). Again you would start off as an associate working better hours, getting the same base, but lower bonus. Stick around for a while and you get promoted to Analyst (with a big A) and those are the big guys (like Frank Quattrone) who are the "experts" on a given industry.

In addition to the many above:
Investment banking, starting as an analyst.

 

[Primate]

I stand corrected. I thought only consulting gave you a start equivalent to an MBA - didn't realize that I-Banking did also. Thanks for the info. One additional piece is that I-Bankers' hours can make surgical interns seem like slackers. Just a heads-up.

I think the hard thing about a VC is that a green MD/PhD may have trouble getting promoted to principal and getting a piece of the carry without outside experience (line management, for example). It can be done, but my take is that it's alot harder making that jump exclusively from within.

Of course, all this is way more detail than the OP asked for. In short, any of these jobs are pretty cool. It all depends on your interests.

Btw, what kind of work are you doing?

 

[OTheHorror]

I'm just fresh starting an MD/PhD program with about 6-7 years to go...

All the info is helpful...

I really don;t see myself as someone that's going to put forth the time and effort into some competitive MD/PhD field, whether it be in medicine or academics, so I'm interested in options that won't require "extended" involvement (i.e. 16 hr work days 6 days/wk)

 

[dl2dp2]

Beware, this bellow is not the right info, neither is the talks of "industry".

Managemnet consulting/IBanking/other finanically related jobs, while very rewarding options indeed, are NOT any less time consuming OR less competitive compared to academic research or academic clinical practises. You are very much expected to have good performances, bottomlines, clients, results, etc. I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER met an IBanker who works 40-60hrs a week, EVER. I think most 1st year associates work as much as an MD INTERN, if not more!

And i suspect working in large NPOs are also very time consuming. They are similar to academic commitments.

The only thing that i can think of that is very stable, 40-60 hr, makes decent money, reputable job is private practice. Choose a low stress internal medicine specialty. you may get one call every three weeks but most of the time nothing happens. EASILY $150,000-$200,000 a year, very comfortable lifestyle, enormous job security. (Rememember, in the industry there is NO job security) you choose your own hours. If you want to make less money, just show up three days a week! This is the reason med school is so competitive. In the US, being a straight forward MD is one of the best career options out there.

If you really absloutly can't deal with patients (it's really not that bad three day a weak...), try pathology or radiology. Even though it's somewhat to very competitive to get residencies, as long as you are not picky, as an MDPHD you'll match SOMEWHERE. Then it's 40-60hrs, great job security, good pay, great flexibility for the rest of your life.

Have no illusions about the industry. There is a reason why generally speaking only people who can't get jobs in academia go into industry, despite the often sizable increase in salary. Most often you work as hard, but no security, you get crappy projects etc.

In addition to the many above:

Management consulting (McKinsey, BCG, Bain). Very attractive for those who aren't going to follow the academic route, or private practice. Your training will be valued and rewarded. Lotta travel (good or bad, depending on your pref.).

Investment banking, starting as an analyst.

Venture capital will hire you, but getting to partner/principal takes quite a bit of time and often a stint in operational management (running all or part of a company like a biotech or in a pharmaco).

Working in a CRO (clinical research organization) designing and implementing clinical trials.

WHO/health policy - not just domestic (NIH as mentioned above).

 

[Primate]

Do note that I don't make reference to easy hours, just to the OP's second question about alternative careers. IBanking, consulting, hell - work in general all require effort, with IBanking perhaps right up there with surgery. However, not all of the options require ungodly hours, certainly not going the industry scientist route (punch the clock at 40-50 hrs, lower stress than going for your own RO1's). There are also boutique consulting firms that don't grind you as much as some others, but this requires homework to find which ones.

If you want a decent but limited salary and fairly containable hours, yes private practice is a good option. You just have to get through residency to get there, and then you have to be a practicing doc. If this doesn't sound like fun (which is why most people ask about alt. options in the first place), then it might be less attractive than the hours/$$ alone would suggest.

If people do their homework, they can usually find an option that works. Not all industry/biz positions work you like a dog, just as there are some residency programs that are more humane than others.

Beware sweeping generalizations on either side of the fence!

P

 

[double_cut]

hey guys...when you talk about public policy (international and domestic) options for md/phd jobs...could you give me some idea of what kind of things you're talking about? i'm really interested in public health, but don't want to pursue an mph. i really like basic science and wanna do a phd in rational drug design. however, i don't see myself as a crazy scientist shooting x-rays at crystals for the rest of my life. i really like policy things and international issues...is there a way for md/phd's to integrate this with their training? any insight would be awesome

 

[Habari]

hey guys...when you talk about public policy (international and domestic) options for md/phd jobs...could you give me some idea of what kind of things you're talking about? i'm really interested in public health, but don't want to pursue an mph. i really like basic science and wanna do a phd in rational drug design. however, i don't see myself as a crazy scientist shooting x-rays at crystals for the rest of my life. i really like policy things and international issues...is there a way for md/phd's to integrate this with their training? any insight would be awesome

most certainly. i'm interested in this to some extent. the short answer is that there is no 'path' or 'route' for these sort of things - you just have to be tenacious and figure out what you want to do. your qualifications as an md/phd are only as useful as how you posit yourself to contribute to policy/public health. there is a strong history of physician-scientists (not necessarily md/phds) in the infectious disease field, for example, who have gone on from clinical/basic research to really shape policy at the highest levels. a good book about this is 'the coming plague' by laurie garrett. it's a long but engaging read, and gives you a real sense of how a lot of public health/policy people came to their current work/positions from clinical/reserach backgrounds.

 

[double_cut]

thanks for the tip habari. much appreciated

most certainly. i'm interested in this to some extent. the short answer is that there is no 'path' or 'route' for these sort of things - you just have to be tenacious and figure out what you want to do. your qualifications as an md/phd are only as useful as how you posit yourself to contribute to policy/public health. there is a strong history of physician-scientists (not necessarily md/phds) in the infectious disease field, for example, who have gone on from clinical/basic research to really shape policy at the highest levels. a good book about this is 'the coming plague' by laurie garrett. it's a long but engaging read, and gives you a real sense of how a lot of public health/policy people came to their current work/positions from clinical/reserach backgrounds.