Non traditional student

[nycdent]

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I'm panicking and need all advises I can get
I'm 30+ y.o. Single mother. I want to change my carrier. Dentistry was always the goal but life happened and I had to put my dreams on hold. Now it's time to get back on track. Due to my family situation I can only stay in NY. I graduated about 8 years ago. I went to NYU where they told me that all my prereqs have expired. So now I have to re take them. I have calculated that it will cost me about $12000. If it would be just me I wouldn't think about it twice. But I have another human depending on me and I'm terrified to waste 12k. I graduated with gpa 3.5. I'm ready to spend another 2 years getting my prereqs and hopefully my gpa will go up. I'm only applying to NYU. Besides taking pre reqs I'm also going to volunteer. Now the most important question: do I even have a chance? Constant thinking about it gives me anxiety attacks

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I'm only applying to NYU.

At today’s tuition rate and with cost of living, NYU’s dental school will cost you between $500,000 and $600,000. Paying that off will take around $4,000/month for the next TWENTY YEARS! Because of taxes, you’ll need to earn more than $60,000/year just to pay your student loans. Also, applying to just a single school, even with absolutely amazing stats, is very risky.

Tuition

Big Hoss

 

[queenki]

I'm panicking and need all advises I can get
I'm 30+ y.o. Single mother. I want to change my carrier. Dentistry was always the goal but life happened and I had to put my dreams on hold. Now it's time to get back on track. Due to my family situation I can only stay in NY. I graduated about 8 years ago. I went to NYU where they told me that all my prereqs have expired. So now I have to re take them. I have calculated that it will cost me about $12000. If it would be just me I wouldn't think about it twice. But I have another human depending on me and I'm terrified to waste 12k. I graduated with gpa 3.5. I'm ready to spend another 2 years getting my prereqs and hopefully my gpa will go up. I'm only applying to NYU. Besides taking pre reqs I'm also going to volunteer. Now the most important question: do I even have a chance? Constant thinking about it gives me anxiety attacks

Did you call to ask them anout expired class recently?

Can any other NY schools be option? Like stonybrook, Touro. Or even like rutgers (close enough?)

If you ask around, many school has no expropriation date or 10yr ok mark. And I found out that if yoi have trong recent dat score, they don't care (pretty flexible)

If I were you, I would try to avoide retaking those as much as possible. It's just such a waste time and money.

I don't know what is the reason you can't leave NY (maybe the child related) but can you somehow make exceptions via court or something? Temporarily for school years at least? It's only 4 years. I would just take DAT rock it, and apply for those who don't care anout expired classes.

I wrote a thread with list of school who don't care or 10yr ok yesterday. Hope that helps.

 

[Nulqil]

I’ll reiterate what the first response said. NYU is rediculously expensive. This is a terrible option for nearly anyone who has to take out loans and pay them off in the future. IF you go down this road, I would say to keep your sanity, NYU would be out.

 

[nycdent]

]Did you call to ask them anout expired class recently?

I went to NYU and spoke with an addmition officer. He told me that my pre reqs are expired.
I'm choosing NYU because 1. It's closest to home. My child is way too young to leave her. 2. It's about 1.5 h by train and during that time I can study. ( I will have to drive to all other schools which is a waste of time) 3. I really doubt that Rutgers or any other school will accept someone like me due to their class size.

I'm not sure I'm being realistic here hoping that NYU will accept me. And honestly I don't care how much it costs. After taxes and paying off the loan it's still going to be better life financially.

So....do I have a real chance of getting in

 

[GypsyHummus]

It might be better, for yourself and others, if you found a more economical goal. I understand the whole "muh dream" issue, but at some point you gotta be realistic. Could you get into New York dental? Maybe, your GPA is solid and with a high DAT score, anything is possible, but those silly money numbers come into play. 600K sounds like a lot, but people have no idea just how much it actually is until they have to pay it off. Its basically monopoly money to students right now.

Have you thought about NP or PA school?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

And honestly I don't care how much it costs.

You will 6 months after graduating when your student loans come due.

After taxes and paying off the loan it's still going to be better life financially.

There are other opportunities in healthcare that may provide you with a better life financially, and that won’t cripple you with student loans. Seriously look at becoming a physician assistant or nurse practitioner.

Big Hoss

 

[nycdent]

I have been an ultrasound tech for 7 years. I am so done with general medicine. Dentistry is not just about money anymore. It's about achievement, making something out of myself no matter how hard it is. Being proud of what I can do.

 

[GypsyHummus]

OP, you can do achievement and find professional doctoral fulfillment without going to dental school.

Im sure that New York also has Pharmacy schools, Optometry schools, etc. I also think they have a podiatry school fairly close by, you may end up really liking that, its basically a foot dentist, and the tuition isnt nearly as high. New York College of Podiatric Medicine

You would have to take the MCAT instead of the DAT, but Pod schools are fairly easy to get into because nobody wants to deal with feet lol. Seems like a good profession if you can deal with the gross factor. They make about as much as dentists. Tuition at this New York school is around 35Kish.

If this were me, I would shadow as many diffrent professions as I could. You might end up liking something you didnt think you would that would cost a lot less.

The opportunity cost is just too high for dental school at this stage in the game. Its not a matter of achieving a dream or not ,(depending on your DAT), I think you prolly could get in. But the debt would be way to much for me.

 

[AKtoTXstudent]

]Did you call to ask them anout expired class recently?

I went to NYU and spoke with an addmition officer. He told me that my pre reqs are expired.
I'm choosing NYU because 1. It's closest to home. My child is way too young to leave her. 2. It's about 1.5 h by train and during that time I can study. ( I will have to drive to all other schools which is a waste of time) 3. I really doubt that Rutgers or any other school will accept someone like me due to their class size.

I'm not sure I'm being realistic here hoping that NYU will accept me. And honestly I don't care how much it costs. After taxes and paying off the loan it's still going to be better life financially.

So....do I have a real chance of getting in

Why is NYU the only option? Plenty of parents who go to work or school have to leave their little ones at daycare. Unless you are living with family rent free and pay no child care, acing you DAT and applying broadly is a better and cheaper option.

I thought about applying to NYU this past cycle but did not because of the COA.

 

[nycdent]

I'm getting really discouraged here. plus my family is really agains it (one of the reasons I didn't go for it originally)

Rutgers actually might be a good option. I'm not against taking my pre reqs again. it will actually help me to put my mind into study mode again. I'm concerned about my chances to get into those schools.

I have been in medical field long enough to see if there is another option for me. Years ago even applied to pharmacy and got on the waiting list. I never followed up on that because I really didn't want to go there.

 

[AKtoTXstudent]

I'm getting really discouraged here. plus my family is really agains it (one of the reasons I didn't go for it originally)

Rutgers actually might be a good option. I'm not against taking my pre reqs again. it will actually help me to put my mind into study mode again. I'm concerned about my chances to get into those schools.

I have been in medical field long enough to see if there is another option for me. Years ago even applied to pharmacy and got on the waiting list. I never followed up on that because I really didn't want to go there.

Why are you getting discouraged?

Someone I know applied with a 3.4GPA and 16AA and was rejected without interviews. That's discouraging!!

You wanna put together you best app when you apply. You are doing your research which is a good thing.

If you determine, NOT anyone here on SDN that dental school is out of reach for you, then YOU get to decide if there are other alternatives. Some people go to the Caribbean for med school, other do PA or NP, there are options. Dental school is NOT the only option.

Plenty of parents go work or school and leave their little ones at daycare. Just have to hunt for the good ones. Age of little one shouldnt prohibit you from going to dental school.

Where does your little one stay now when you go to work?

What is your sGPA like? I would call other schools in your area (Rutgers and other schools) and see which ones have expirations for their pre-reqs. I thought someone posted a thread recently about it
I would study my ass off for the DAT, score a 22+ then decide how many schools you need to apply to.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Really think about the long term finances here. By the time you retake your prerequisites and finish dental school you will be around 40 years old. Like I’ve already said, some of these dental schools like NYU may leave you paying down student loans until you’re pushing 60. Student loans are no joke.

Big Hoss

 

[AKtoTXstudent]

[info] expiration date for old pre requisite classes for non traditional

someone started a thread about age of pre-reqs

 

[aggie-master]

Is being a dentist worth being poor?


I think you have the kind of grades that will lead to you eventually getting in, but going to one of the most expensive schools and graduating with 500k+ of debt near the age of 40 is going to set you up with major financial problems. If you can try to graduate sooner with much less debt (from a cheaper school) then it might work but plan to be very stressed by the debt for most of your career.

It is hard to save for retirement when you are paying 5k or 6k a month in student loan payments that seem to never end. If you are able to pay your debt and save then you’ll be living like a student all through your 40s and maybe well into your 50s.

 

[nycdent]

thank you everyone. it seems like every one is on the same page. I will have a lot to think about. I really appreciate all opinions here

 

[mandypr]

So I had to make a similar decision. I have a daughter who is 7 years old. My pre-req's had expired as well so I started taking them when my daughter was 5 and in school full time so I could be in school full time and feel less guilty. I got a 4.0 in my pre-req's and it was a great review for the DAT's and got me back in school mode. I got 5 interviews and NYU was one. I loved the school, and the person who interviewed me believed you should only apply to the school that is your number 1 pick. I was accepted to all of the schools where I interviewed. I am 39 years old, mother etc. I almost went to NYU for the same reason because I have family in Delaware and NYU is an 1.5 hr train ride from them. But I also got into UPR which has lower tuition but a more strict schedule, mandatory class attendance everyday 8-5pm. I am 100% sure I would have gone to NYU had I not been accepted to UPR. Yes, I would have been in more debt but I have several friends who are dentists and they had no problem paying off equal debt in addition to buying a practice and paying it off as well. They lived moderately at first but had everything paid off in 10 years. NYU gives you flexibility since most lectures are online and labs are offered at different times of the day. But if you wait until your child is in school, then you will not be missing so much in her life, she will be doing her own thing and you will be doing yours. I was also able to work while taking my pre-reqs and shadow since she was in school. My family was not totally supportive of my decision to go back to school as well but it is your life and not theirs. Life does not always work out how you expect but if you try to do your best with what you have you at least eliminate the "what if's." I knew I had to do something better with my life and be able to support myself and my daughter for a very long time. And dentistry you can do until you are 70-80 years old or at least be an owner of a practice as you get older and work part time. You will have options. Best of luck! You can do it!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I have several friends who are dentists and they had no problem paying off equal debt in addition to buying a practice and paying it off as well. They lived moderately at first but had everything paid off in 10 years.

I’m not buying it. All these people had $600,000 in student loans, spent another $500,000+ to acquire a practice, and had that all paid off in 10 years? Even living like a student, paying off more than $1 million in loans, on top of life’s other expenses, makes you an outlier. But then again, this is SDN where everyone thinks they’re an outlier.

Big Hoss

 

[mandypr]

I’m not buying it. All these people had $600,000 in student loans, spent another $500,000+ to acquire a practice, and had that all paid off in 10 years? Even living like a student, paying off more than $1 million in loans, on top of life’s other expenses, makes you an outlier. But then again, this is SDN where everyone thinks they’re an outlier.

Big Hoss

Trust me, not everyone falls into this category but they are also business savvy and found ways to make it work for them. We are all between 40-45 and I would have never thought they could have done what they are doing. One developed a good business model of promoting hygiene and has several hygienists which keeps his down time minimum but he also bought a very busy and successful practice to start with. The other opens a new practice, gets it going for 5 years then sells it for $500k. He has two going at the same time and sells the older one. They are spaced 30 min apart so he can be close but not too competitive so when he sells it there is not an issue. He has sold 3 so far. He hires associate dentists to work the opposite days and they have been the ones that buy the practice. It seems to work for everyone involved. They definitely hustle to make it happen but you make it happen. That said, some people can not open or buy a practice because of too much debt and end up working in a corporate dental office and hate it. I lived on a state boarder where one state only allows dentists to own practices and the other does not. So there is a large variety of businesses. And most dental schools are expensive and not everyone has a choice. So some times if its what you need to do, you can make it happen.

 

[queenki]

Just wanted to ask if you really need 1-2yr worth of undergrad tuition to "help get back to study mode"...when you can just invest $500 prep book and do it for yourself in a month or two for free.

Re-taking all pre-reqs just to go to NYU when other schools don't require you to re take is.... quite... extreme choice.

Who cares for your baby when you are at work now? Do you live rent free and child care free with your mom?

Pick a few schools that do not require re taking pre reqsc calculate COA include rent and childcare and compare that with those 12000 ( are you sure it cost only 12000 to take ALL pre reqs again?) plus NYU COA. Rememebr, if you delay your application by 1-2 yrs just to re take pre req, you are giving uo 1-2 yrs of dentist income. Think about the opportunity cost.

There seems a reason why all people here are not so optimistic about your current plan unfortunately...

 

[DSchoolorBust202X]

Maybe you could look into loan repayment programs? I won't pretend to know too much about it, but I found some info here: https://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Edu...es/dental-student-loan-repayment-resource.pdf.

 

[ysrebob]

Going to have to side with Big Time Hoosier here. That's two experienced dentists telling you the same thing.

NYU is at the very high end of tuition costs and NYC is one of the more competitive (aka lowest paid) job markets for dentists in the country... a difficult combination. Also you are starting school older (as I did, too); there are some benefits to being a nontraditional student, but starting payback later does make the debt situation worse.

I admire your determination, but you have to know that if you're geographically bound to NYC (and unless you are a natural-born dental entrepreneur) you are going to be throwing a sickeningly large fraction of your income at student loans for many, many years to come... practically forever. Every field has its challenges, but IMO you simply would have better career options than dentistry under these circumstances. If you're able to move elsewhere for school and/or work, maybe a different story.

 

[nycdent]

I won't give up 🙂
So I have spoken with my friend who graduated NYU. she is an international dentist and her loan is less then 500-600K. she told me about "pay as you earn" program. I have never heard of this, can someone explain it to me and why its a bad idea?
I don't want to go to NYU, but it maybe my only choice. I will have to apply to NYU and Rutgers. these are the only 2 schools available to me geographically. After I graduate I will run from Brooklyn as fast as I can

 

[aggie-master]

I won't give up 🙂
So I have spoken with my friend who graduated NYU. she is an international dentist and her loan is less then 500-600K. she told me about "pay as you earn" program. I have never heard of this, can someone explain it to me and why its a bad idea?
I don't want to go to NYU, but it maybe my only choice. I will have to apply to NYU and Rutgers. these are the only 2 schools available to me geographically. After I graduate I will run from Brooklyn as fast as I can

The government programs are a bad idea because you still pay a significant portion of your after tax income in monthly payments for something like 25 years and since your payment is often not enough to cover the 7% interest that is constantly compounding you will see your balance often go up over time instead of down. Then, when the 25 years are up you might see that after 25 years of payments (you are now 65ish at this point) you owe a million dollars on your student loans. The government forgives the million dollars but then the IRS is going to consider that to be income and add $400,000+ to your tax bill for the year.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The government programs are a bad idea because you still pay a significant portion of your after tax income in monthly payments for something like 25 years and since your payment is often not enough to cover the 7% interest that is constantly compounding you will see your balance often go up over time instead of down. Then, when the 25 years are up you might see that after 25 years of payments (you are now 65ish at this point) you owe a million dollars on your student loans. The government forgives the million dollars but then the IRS is going to consider that to be income and add $400,000+ to your tax bill for the year.

That's what happened to this guy...

Mike Meru Has $1 Million in Student Loans. How Did That Happen?

Big Hoss

 

[Shunwei]

That's what happened to this guy...

Mike Meru Has $1 Million in Student Loans. How Did That Happen?

Big Hoss

Not sure why you guys are so intent on advising these predents. I learned a long time ago that predents will rationalize in anyway they can to do what they think is right. So let'em dogz burn yo and let the lemmings do their thing. It's her own funeral in this case if she ignores the myriad threads about NYU, advice from practicing dentists, and common sense.

 

[oceanicvibe]

there are some benefits to being a nontraditional student, .

Like what?

 

[ysrebob]

Like what?

Perspective.
Experience.
Not intimidated by faculty, and less likely to be hazed by faculty.
Not tempted to date classmates because they're all ten years younger.
(I had a smooth ride thru dental school on account of the last two, and even kind of miss it sometimes... as utterly ridiculous as that sounds.)

 

[Judajudo]

That's what happened to this guy...

Mike Meru Has $1 Million in Student Loans. How Did That Happen?

Big Hoss

The amount of dental school loans and interest is ridiculous and should make everyone take a step back and consider the financial impacts to their future. However, this dude is a tidal wave of terrible life and financial choices that STILL doesn't seemed to have learned his lesson. He has a Mercedes and a Tesla, doesn't work full time, and frequently goes on vacations. He has paid $39,000 on his student loans since he graduated, paying a little more than a 1000 bucks each month. Oh and he also makes $225,000 dollars a year, and takes home more than 13,000 a month. Like, come on dude. As predatory as these loans can be, his situation is primarily of his own making.

 

[queenki]

The amount of dental school loans and interest is ridiculous and should make everyone take a step back and consider the financial impacts to their future. However, this dude is a tidal wave of terrible life and financial choices that STILL doesn't seemed to have learned his lesson. He has a Mercedes and a Tesla, doesn't work full time, and frequently goes on vacations. He has paid $39,000 on his student loans since he graduated, paying a little more than a 1000 bucks each month. Oh and he also makes $225,000 dollars a year, and takes home more than 13,000 a month. Like, come on dude. As predatory as these loans can be, his situation is primarily of his own making.

So his plan is, just not give a dang to the loan, pay minimum and enjoy life NOW, and when get older.....!?!?!?1 just dissapear?

 

[mandypr]

My question is what schools do not require you to take pre-req's after they are 10 years old. I did not find any. If they did not post it on their website that the pre-req's had to be 10 years old or newer then when I asked that was the case. Also having children, mortgage, business owner and other responsibilities I could see what I could handle. Plus most of my classes were 20 years ago. But if some one got into a school with older pre-reqs with in the last year or two (since most schools I spoke with had just changed to this policy) please post so other non-traditionals know their options!!!

 

[queenki]

My question is what schools do not require you to take pre-req's after they are 10 years old. I did not find any. If they did not post it on their website that the pre-req's had to be 10 years old or newer then when I asked that was the case. Also having children, mortgage, business owner and other responsibilities I could see what I could handle. Plus most of my classes were 20 years ago. But if some one got into a school with older pre-reqs with in the last year or two (since most schools I spoke with had just changed to this policy) please post so other non-traditionals know their options!!!

Obviously you didn't call enough schools. I made thread recently what school has "no expiration date" for pre reqs as long as you have current DAT scores.

 

[predent2151]

I'm getting really discouraged here. plus my family is really agains it (one of the reasons I didn't go for it originally)

Rutgers actually might be a good option. I'm not against taking my pre reqs again. it will actually help me to put my mind into study mode again. I'm concerned about my chances to get into those schools.

I have been in medical field long enough to see if there is another option for me. Years ago even applied to pharmacy and got on the waiting list. I never followed up on that because I really didn't want to go there.

Some schools will accept expired prerequisites if you have a high enough recent DAT. Again NYU shouldn’t be an option for anyone who isn’t doing HPSP or NHSC or some other loan service program. Being 600k in debt, practicing in a saturated area is risky because in order to ever even think about paying back the debt you’d need a high cash flow practice which would require liquidity which you would gain by not immediately servicing your debt and therefore going even further into debt so that you could buy a practice to go even more in debt.

 

[Weirdy]

]2. It's about 1.5 h by train and during that time I can study. ( I will have to drive to all other schools which is a waste of time) 3. I really doubt that Rutgers or any other school will accept someone like me due to their class size.

A lot of your statements conflict themselves. So you'd sit on a train for 1.5 hours but wouldn't consider a different school that you could drive less than 30 minutes to? Fantastic thought processing.

I have been an ultrasound tech for 7 years. I am so done with general medicine. Dentistry is not just about money anymore. It's about achievement, making something out of myself no matter how hard it is. Being proud of what I can do.

Right, which is why you also posted in the optometry forum asking strictly money related questions.

 

[MedicalDoctorFrankenstein]

Right, which is why you also posted in the optometry forum asking strictly money related questions.[/QUOTE]

you salty. What's wrong with having options? Money should 100% factor into career decisions, whether people like to admit it or not. If she wants to try to provide a better life for her and her family, that shouldn't be something to try to shame someone for.

 

[Weirdy]

you salty. What's wrong with having options? Money should 100% factor into career decisions, whether people like to admit it or not. If she wants to try to provide a better life for her and her family, that shouldn't be something to try to shame someone for.

Not salty, just pointing out her lack of self-awareness.

If she'd like to get real with herself- I'm all for it. She should also consider PA and NP which both have shorter tracks.

When her aspirations and reality do not line up, she will continue to make bad decisions after getting into a program.

 

[MedicalDoctorFrankenstein]

Not salty, just pointing out her lack of self-awareness.

If she'd like to get real with herself- I'm all for it. She should also consider PA and NP which both have shorter tracks.

When her aspirations and reality do not line up, she will continue to make bad decisions after getting into a program.

I agree about NP and PA, I think both those are really good alternatives as well to look into. I don't see why you have so much negativity towards her situation, saying she needs to get real with herself and that she has a lack of self-awareness. I haven't gone through her entire profile like you, so I am not aware if there is any bad decisions she has made. From what I can tell, she has a 3.5 gpa from NYU and as long as she does well in retaking her pre-reqs and does well on the DAT, she should be fine.

 

[Judajudo]

Right, which is why you also posted in the optometry forum asking strictly money related questions.

Both jobs are prestigious and a big achievement, but they have different costs and earning potentials. Its okay to evaluate the costs of pursuing potential careers before making this decision. Not sure why you are so negative about someone who wants to set and achieve a personal goal. Dentistry is not some higher calling that only people who has wanted to be a dentist since they were zygotes, its okay to consider other paths.

she has a 3.5 gpa from NYU

Ah so she attends/attended NYU already. That may be a big part of it, if its already a situation you figured out how to make work already. Its also likely that she doesn't have a car since she lives in the NYC area.

 

[The_Dent!]

I'm panicking and need all advises I can get
I'm 30+ y.o. Single mother. I want to change my carrier. Dentistry was always the goal but life happened and I had to put my dreams on hold. Now it's time to get back on track. Due to my family situation I can only stay in NY. I graduated about 8 years ago. I went to NYU where they told me that all my prereqs have expired. So now I have to re take them. I have calculated that it will cost me about $12000. If it would be just me I wouldn't think about it twice. But I have another human depending on me and I'm terrified to waste 12k. I graduated with gpa 3.5. I'm ready to spend another 2 years getting my prereqs and hopefully my gpa will go up. I'm only applying to NYU. Besides taking pre reqs I'm also going to volunteer. Now the most important question: do I even have a chance? Constant thinking about it gives me anxiety attacks

I'm panicking and need all advises I can get
I'm 30+ y.o. Single mother. I want to change my carrier. Dentistry was always the goal but life happened and I had to put my dreams on hold. Now it's time to get back on track. Due to my family situation I can only stay in NY. I graduated about 8 years ago. I went to NYU where they told me that all my prereqs have expired. So now I have to re take them. I have calculated that it will cost me about $12000. If it would be just me I wouldn't think about it twice. But I have another human depending on me and I'm terrified to waste 12k. I graduated with gpa 3.5. I'm ready to spend another 2 years getting my prereqs and hopefully my gpa will go up. I'm only applying to NYU. Besides taking pre reqs I'm also going to volunteer. Now the most important question: do I even have a chance? Constant thinking about it gives me anxiety attacks

Hey, I did the same thing as you. This last cycle 2017-2018, I applied to just NYU dental. I also submitted my primary February 1st and submitted my dat score on there deadline date which was feb 15. I got a interview invite the week after the 15th of February. Funny thing my stats were 3.0sgpa 3.0 overall gpa and 21 on the dat. That being said, anything is possible 😉

 

[The_Dent!]

I'm panicking and need all advises I can get
I'm 30+ y.o. Single mother. I want to change my carrier. Dentistry was always the goal but life happened and I had to put my dreams on hold. Now it's time to get back on track. Due to my family situation I can only stay in NY. I graduated about 8 years ago. I went to NYU where they told me that all my prereqs have expired. So now I have to re take them. I have calculated that it will cost me about $12000. If it would be just me I wouldn't think about it twice. But I have another human depending on me and I'm terrified to waste 12k. I graduated with gpa 3.5. I'm ready to spend another 2 years getting my prereqs and hopefully my gpa will go up. I'm only applying to NYU. Besides taking pre reqs I'm also going to volunteer. Now the most important question: do I even have a chance? Constant thinking about it gives me anxiety attacks

Also seriously wtf you have 3.5 gpa and if you get a 19 on the dat, just apply to schools that don’t have that pre-req expiration date