Nontrad low GPA...MD or PA?

[gleeful]

Hey everyone. I have a sub-3.0 GPA and am 26 years old. I have been working in Fortune 500 companies for a few years and have done pretty well. I've been promoted, led projects, etc. I'm thinking about taking the prereqs one class per semester while continuing to work and applying to either med school or PA school. Also, volunteering/clinical hours on weekends. All things being equal, which would it be easier to be accepted by?

I know my chances aren't great at either, but I hear MD is generally more competitive than PA. However, a lot of PA schools seem to have a hard cutoff GPA of 3.0, whereas MD schools actually seem more forgiving if you have significant life experience. This just from perusing the websites. What does everyone think? I would be able to apply to start PA school at 30 and start MD school at 32 assuming everything goes according to plan (big assumption I know.) Thanks.

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[9s_2b]

PA school would be easier to be admitted to, but its no walk in the park. How sub-3.0 is your GPA? Although raising your GPA through postbacc classes may be an option, doing it 3 hours at a time will produce limited results. Moreover, I'd look into DO schools as well considering that they do reward reinvention a bit more than MD schools.

 

[gleeful]

PA school would be easier to be admitted to, but its no walk in the park. How sub-3.0 is your GPA? Although raising your GPA through postbacc classes may be an option, doing it 3 hours at a time will produce limited results. Moreover, I'd look into DO schools as well considering that they do reward reinvention a bit more than MD schools.

Thanks for your reply. I have a 2.7. Unfortunately I cannot quit my job and go back full time for the prereqs as that would be a HUGE risk. If I didn't end up getting in, I would have thrown away a six figure job with stock options for nothing. And I can't take more than one class at a time especially with volunteering on weekends as I my job requires 50-60 hours a week. I'm comfortable with my plan to take the prereqs through UNE online, one at a time, until I can apply in 3-6 years. I just don't know around which option I should orient my efforts...MD or PA. I am definitely not doing this for the money. I would probably make less as a PA than I am right now and med school would take me out of the real work force for like 8-12 years and add debt. I'm interested because I only have one life to live and I have a need to help people directly. Sitting in a cubicle all day staring at Excel is wearing me down. The only time I talk to anyone is if I am presenting to them haha. I know the grass isn't always greener and medicine isn't perfect, but in this case I feel like the grass has to be at least a little greener. As for DO, I obviously am no expert, but from what I have seen DO don't really have a shot at surgical residencies. That's the only reason I wouldn't go the PA route...if I'm going to do primary care I think I would be happy doing that as a PA. I'm mainly concerned with the cutoff GPA of 3.0 that a lot of PA schools have on their websites. I have yet to see a medical school with the same thing. I worry that if I orient my efforts around going to PA school it would have zero effect because they don't accept lower than a 3.0 period no exceptions whereas med school seems to have more of a "whole package" mentality if that makes sense.

 

[ScubaD]

Chiming in here and probably answering more than you actually asked but in the hope of being helpful...here goes: A few years ago I was almost you. My prior Undergrad GPA was a "smidge" better than yours (2.9) and my income at my corp job was a "smidge" lower than 6 figures (96k). Currently, I'm in my last semester of prereqs and I'll be taking the MCAT and applying this summer. I'll tell you what I've learned so far.

First and most importantly, you cannot take your pre-requisite courses online. Many med schools won't accept online courses, some wont accept community college courses. To see who takes what Google "AAMC MSAR". MSAR is Medical School Admissions Requirements guide - the amount of useful info that it has is beyond what I can express in this thread. I costs ~35.00 a year at my last check. Well worth it if you're thinking about going this route.

There might be some GPA "hack" in taking a few extra elective courses online to boost your over all GPA but I wouldnt put my energy there when you could put that extra time into the courses required for your pre-reqs.

I did most of my prereqs 2 classes at a time, after work in the evening or on the weekend, over the past 2 years. Depending on the class, it can be brutal but you'll absolutely need to be on campus.

DO schools do have a shot at Surgical Residencies. The opportunities and respect for DO physicians has grown. I'll admit that it still doesn't match head-to-head the respect that MD's get but I'm not ruling out DO school for myself in part because of the "reinvention" factor that 9s_2b mentioned.

As far as your stated question, which is easier to get into to...I really think its a toss up. Based on what I've learned, PA school is really competitive simply because of the duration (2 yrs vs 4 yrs+ for Med) and the GPA (3.0 vs 3.7+ for Med). Of course Med school is going to be really competitive also but from what I've seen/Googled, slowly more and more med schools are seem to be finding their own flexible nuances. For instance, during random study-break searches I've come across a couple of Med Schools who don't list any particular GPA as a requirement. I'm certain they look at it but this tells me that if you really put your weight into your MCAT and your prereq courses you might have a fair shot. So, its a toss up. Do some thorough research. The prereqs for PA and MD are almost the same so you can start your prereqs while making your final decision. I wouldn't rule either out.
Also, I'm sure state laws apply in some way but PA's can perform surgery under the supervision of a physician.

I hope that helps. Ask away if I can clarify anything or offer a resource to you.

 

[DSM_302.0]

This is tough. I hear you. I just did a 5 year DIY postbac, slowly but surely, nights and weekends while working full time.

Your GPA is pretty low for MD schools, but not unheard of. Do some sleuthing around here, especially Goro's posts about reinvention.

You seem to like numbers and tables and spreadsheets, so you might be interested in some of the AAMC acceptance data.
If you can *crush* your MCAT, the acceptance rate for your GPA isn't terrible:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf
But, do note we're lookin at an N of 15 for the GPA of 2.6 - 2.79 and an MCAT in ~top 10% of all takers.

Unfortunately most med schools will not accept online coursework. If you want to apply MD, you will need to take courses in person at an accredited university. Community College courses are frowned upon. I took all of mine at an Extension program at the public uni near me.

Good luck!

 

[DSM_302.0]

Check out:
Below 3.0 gpa Support Group/Thread

 

[gleeful]

Chiming in here and probably answering more than you actually asked but in the hope of being helpful...here goes: A few years ago I was almost you. My prior Undergrad GPA was a "smidge" better than yours (2.9) and my income at my corp job was a "smidge" lower than 6 figures (96k). Currently, I'm in my last semester of prereqs and I'll be taking the MCAT and applying this summer. I'll tell you what I've learned so far.

First and most importantly, you cannot take your pre-requisite courses online. Many med schools won't accept online courses, some wont accept community college courses. To see who takes what Google "AAMC MSAR". MSAR is Medical School Admissions Requirements guide - the amount of useful info that it has is beyond what I can express in this thread. I costs ~35.00 a year at my last check. Well worth it if you're thinking about going this route.

There might be some GPA "hack" in taking a few extra elective courses online to boost your over all GPA but I wouldnt put my energy there when you could put that extra time into the courses required for your pre-reqs.

I did most of my prereqs 2 classes at a time, after work in the evening or on the weekend, over the past 2 years. Depending on the class, it can be brutal but you'll absolutely need to be on campus.

DO schools do have a shot at Surgical Residencies. The opportunities and respect for DO physicians has grown. I'll admit that it still doesn't match head-to-head the respect that MD's get but I'm not ruling out DO school for myself in part because of the "reinvention" factor that 9s_2b mentioned.

As far as your stated question, which is easier to get into to...I really think its a toss up. Based on what I've learned, PA school is really competitive simply because of the duration (2 yrs vs 4 yrs+ for Med) and the GPA (3.0 vs 3.7+ for Med). Of course Med school is going to be really competitive also but from what I've seen/Googled, slowly more and more med schools are seem to be finding their own flexible nuances. For instance, during random study-break searches I've come across a couple of Med Schools who don't list any particular GPA as a requirement. I'm certain they look at it but this tells me that if you really put your weight into your MCAT and your prereq courses you might have a fair shot. So, its a toss up. Do some thorough research. The prereqs for PA and MD are almost the same so you can start your prereqs while making your final decision. I wouldn't rule either out.
Also, I'm sure state laws apply in some way but PA's can perform surgery under the supervision of a physician.

I hope that helps. Ask away if I can clarify anything or offer a resource to you.

Thank you for your reply. Best of luck to you in applying and congrats for making the journey so far. About online...this seems to be a point of discussion at various places on SDN and while some people don’t like it the general consensus is online is fine. As long as the school is accredited. UNE is accredited by two major groups. I don’t think it’s a community college. I looked at top med school sites and they broke down a list of accreditation organizations they accept and UNE’s was listed. Also, there are numerous success stories here about online prereqs. And the online courses show up as regular courses on the transcript so the adcom wouldn’t even know (they could put two and two together if you have your school in New England and haven’t ever been there in your life) but online is ok. Basically is the school accredited? If yes then the courses are accepted. Some people here have even called each school and asked if they accepted and were almost laughed at like in an “of course” kind of way-like why wouldn’t we? A course is a course as long as it’s accredited. UNE fully is. Now I would agree that being there in-person is probably ideal for personal learning purposes but in my life it’s sinply not feasible. I have done my research and There is only one real university within an hour from me and I looked at their course schedule and they haven’t offered a night chem or physics class in like 8 years haha. I just have to make lemonade out of these lemons and hope it’s enough. I think it will ultimately come down to GRE or MCAT for me. Thanks for your help!

 

[GypsyHummus]

OP,

I would take a chance and apply to any medical school before thinking about PA, at any age.

Look into DPM (Podiatry). I’ve seen people get accepted with sub 3.0 gpa, provided an mcat is above a 500. Sometimes even lower at the bigger schools. Yes, ew feet, but you are an independent physician of the foot and ankle. Podiatry actually has a good amount of 30+ year olds. It’s a lot easier to endure 7 years of grunt work and then have the rest of your life reap the benefits of the “Doctor” title than fun times in PA land in your 20s and 30s to then hit a brick wall in your 40s being bossed around by the hot shot 30year old MD.

Hop on over to the Pod forums and do some research. Most of the pre pods are really friendly and a lot more down to earth than most medical students.

 

[RNthenDoc]

D.O.s can absolutely become surgeons.

 

[gleeful]

OP,

I would take a chance and apply to any medical school before thinking about PA, at any age.

Look into DPM (Podiatry). I’ve seen people get accepted with sub 3.0 gpa, provided an mcat is above a 500. Sometimes even lower at the bigger schools. Yes, ew feet, but you are an independent physician of the foot and ankle. Podiatry actually has a good amount of 30+ year olds. It’s a lot easier to endure 7 years of grunt work and then have the rest of your life reap the benefits of the “Doctor” title than fun times in PA land in your 20s and 30s to then hit a brick wall in your 40s being bossed around by the hot shot 30year old MD.

Hop on over to the Pod forums and do some research. Most of the pre pods are really friendly and a lot more down to earth than most medical students.

Thanks for your reply. WOW is the lack of respect for PAs really that bad??? Worse than lack of respect for DOs? Also I’m just nervous about signing my entire 30s away to residency and school. That’s a real grind. I’ll look into podiatry school though I would be more interested in dental or pharm if I’m not doing med or PA

 

[gleeful]

This is tough. I hear you. I just did a 5 year DIY postbac, slowly but surely, nights and weekends while working full time.

Your GPA is pretty low for MD schools, but not unheard of. Do some sleuthing around here, especially Goro's posts about reinvention.

You seem to like numbers and tables and spreadsheets, so you might be interested in some of the AAMC acceptance data.
If you can *crush* your MCAT, the acceptance rate for your GPA isn't terrible:
But, do note we're lookin at an N of 15 for the GPA of 2.6 - 2.79 and an MCAT in ~top 10% of all takers.

Unfortunately most med schools will not accept online coursework. If you want to apply MD, you will need to take courses in person at an accredited university. Community College courses are frowned upon. I took all of mine at an Extension program at the public uni near me.

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. I haven’t seen anything on med school websites that say no online courses.,,just make sure it’s accredited. UNE is no community college. It’s accredited by a major organization that’s listed as accepted on the websites of top medical schools. Unfortunately there just is not a university within an hour from me that offers night science courses. I just have to make lemonade out of these lemons and hope it’s enough. There are success stories with online prereqs here and some people have even called schools to double check and it’s like...the courses are from an accredited school? If so, that’s all that seems to matter. Some members of adcoms might not personally like it (even though they would have to dig in and read between the lines in the first place to know the courses were online since they don’t appear on a transcript any differently) but the med schools “officially” accept them and like I said it’s simply the only way for me. I think it will mainly come down to me having to crush the MCAT/GRE. And I’m mainly trying to figure out here if I would be wasting time and stress even thinking about PA school as they seem to require a minimum 3.0 and just focus solely on med school as they may look more at the whole story. Because the way I wrote out my plans it would be very different. For example instead of taking physics this fall (med school) i would be studying for the GRE and trying to get as many clinical hours as possible (PA school). Thanks! Also do you have a link to Goro’s posts about reinvention?

 

[gleeful]

D.O.s can absolutely become surgeons.

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the info-is it much harder for them? Somethings just tells me I won’t be in the top ten percent of the class haha

 

[RNthenDoc]

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the info-is it much harder for them? Somethings just tells me I won’t be in the top ten percent of the class haha

I’m not competent to answer this question fully, and it is very School-dependent, but I work with plenty of surgeons with D.O. as their title.

When I was a kid i didn’t know what a D.O. was, and a very understanding orthopedic surgeon was very patient in explaining that he was the attending physician. 🙂 I’ll never forget that.

(Orthopods have a bum rap in the hospital, but this guy was very nice. If he could match ortho surgery, I’m sure gen surg is a possibility, although things may change with the merger. Again, I am not an expert.)

 

[gleeful]

I’m not competent to answer this question fully, and it is very School-dependent, but I work with plenty of surgeons with D.O. as their title.

When I was a kid i didn’t know what a D.O. was, and a very understanding orthopedic surgeon was very patient in explaining that he was the attending physician. 🙂 I’ll never forget that.

(Orthopods have a bum rap in the hospital, but this guy was very nice. If he could match ortho surgery, I’m sure gen surg is a possibility, although things may change with the merger. Again, I am not an expert.)

Cool. When is the merger suppose to finalize? And what will it do for DOs?

 

[RNthenDoc]

Cool. When is the merger suppose to finalize? And what will it do for DOs?

In 2020 all residencies will be accredited universally (smart move). The ability to match either has been around for years, so this just completely puts everyone on a level playing field as far as ensuring the quality of residency.

There are TONS of threads on SDN about the implications of the merger with little solid data, although the consensus seems to be that it will make matching specialties *SLIGHTLY* harder for DO-prepared physicians and *MUCH* harder for international graduates.

All speculative.

 

[DSM_302.0]

Check out this thread:
Online Classes and Med School.
TL;DR: schools might know whether a class was online or not regardless of what's on your transcript.
Whether or not they care is a risk you'll need to wager. I took online stats but I don't think they knew. All my other premed courses were in person.

I just had a call with the director of admissions of the school I'm headed to about a requirement of mine. I said, "There's an online course that will fulfill this requirement, I could enroll and finish any time before matriculation. I read the pre-reqs page on the website (Getting Started | UCSF Medical Education | Admissions) and it doesn't explicitly exclude online courses, so that should be okay, right?" and she answered, "Nah, it's explicitly listed on MSAR that online coursework is not accepted, so this class won't work."
(Luckily I got a waiver for Bio II, so I'm good, but wow...)

And yup, lo and behold, here it is:
https://apps.aamc.org/msar-ui/#/medSchoolDetails/8/108

I definitely share your attitude about trying to wiggle around requirements. I've done it my whole life. It's likely possible for your pre-med plans. But it's also a risk I advise you to be aware of!

 

[DSM_302.0]

Thanks for your reply. I haven’t seen anything on med school websites that say no online courses.,,just make sure it’s accredited.

^^ The source for all truth here is MSAR. As I mentioned in my above response, adcoms don't care what's on the website. MSAR & AMCAS are the Truth.

Thanks! Also do you have a link to Goro’s posts about reinvention?

LMGTFY 😉

Top result

 

[sporklet]

Thanks for your reply. WOW is the lack of respect for PAs really that bad??? Worse than lack of respect for DOs? Also I’m just nervous about signing my entire 30s away to residency and school. That’s a real grind. I’ll look into podiatry school though I would be more interested in dental or pharm if I’m not doing med or PA

(bolding is mine for emphasis)

As far as the MD vs. PA conversation, your answer is there. If you become a PA, you will essentially spend your entire career as a resident...if you aren't okay with that, then PA is not the right path for you.

Aside from that, PA schools are becoming increasingly more competitive; I agree with others who suggest looking into DO.

Good luck!