North African, URM?

[625233]

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Are people of Moroccan, Egyptian, etc. descent URM (African American)?

 

[LizzyM]

According to the US Census definitions, people from Moroccan, Egyptian and other North Afridan descent are classified as "White" and they are not URM.


White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.

Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.

American Indian and Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment. This category includes people who indicate their race as "American Indian or Alaska Native" or report entries such as Navajo, Blackfeet, Inupiat, Yup'ik, or Central American Indian groups or South American Indian groups.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes people who indicate their race as "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian" or provide other detailed Asian responses.

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. It includes people who indicate their race as "Native Hawaiian," "Guamanian or Chamorro," "Samoan," and "Other Pacific Islander" or provide other detailed Pacific Islander responses.

Two or more races. People may have chosen to provide two or more races either by checking two or more race response check boxes, by providing multiple responses, or by some combination of check boxes and other responses.

The concept of race is separate from the concept of Hispanic origin. Percentages for the various race categories add to 100 percent, and should not be combined with the percent Hispanic.

Non-Hispanic White alone persons. Individuals who responded "No, not Spanish/Hispanic/Latino" and who reported "White" as their only entry in the race question. Tallies that show race categories for Hispanics and non-Hispanics separately are also available.

 

[625233]

Thanks @LizzyM

 

[mimelim]

According to the US Census definitions, people from Moroccan, Egyptian and other North Afridan descent are classified as "White" and they are not URM.


White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.

Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro"; or report entries such as African American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.

American Indian and Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment. This category includes people who indicate their race as "American Indian or Alaska Native" or report entries such as Navajo, Blackfeet, Inupiat, Yup'ik, or Central American Indian groups or South American Indian groups.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes people who indicate their race as "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian" or provide other detailed Asian responses.

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. It includes people who indicate their race as "Native Hawaiian," "Guamanian or Chamorro," "Samoan," and "Other Pacific Islander" or provide other detailed Pacific Islander responses.

Two or more races. People may have chosen to provide two or more races either by checking two or more race response check boxes, by providing multiple responses, or by some combination of check boxes and other responses.

The concept of race is separate from the concept of Hispanic origin. Percentages for the various race categories add to 100 percent, and should not be combined with the percent Hispanic.

Non-Hispanic White alone persons. Individuals who responded "No, not Spanish/Hispanic/Latino" and who reported "White" as their only entry in the race question. Tallies that show race categories for Hispanics and non-Hispanics separately are also available.

Using color to describe a group of people. Confusing/misleading, who would have thought?

 

[LizzyM]

Using color to describe a group of people. Confusing/misleading, who would have thought?

Don't think of it as a color, just as a name. Is Dr. Green "green"?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

The reason North African and Arabs are *white* is because in the early days they couldn't get citizenship..
So they sued, it went to the Supreme Court and via testimony of an anthropologist they were deemed white..
Read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_v._United_States

FYI I know that not all North Africans are *Caucasian* so if you are a black student, just check African American.. Otherwise you can't check that box..

 

[Lawpy]

According to the US Census definitions, people from Moroccan, Egyptian and other North Afridan descent are classified as "White" and they are not URM.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes people who indicate their race as "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian" or provide other detailed Asian responses.

The US Census Bureau really has to update its definition for "Asian race". Not that it makes a difference for medical school admissions since both are obviously ORM, but the distinction must be made between East Asians and South Asians.

And besides, South Asians are much more similar to Middle Easterners than to East Asians, so they are technically considered white.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

How about we all do everyone a favor, and refuse to answer the race question?
I REFUSE to answer the race question. I will not ever answer, ever, ever, ever.

We should all be judged for who we are as a human being, not our race.

 

[LizzyM]

How about we all do everyone a favor, and refuse to answer the race question?
I REFUSE to answer the race question. I will not ever answer, ever, ever, ever.

We should all be judged for who we are as a human being, not our race.

And thus contribute to the inability to call out " the powers that be" on racial discrimination or provide the powers that be the data they need to defend themselves against false charges of racial discrimination.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

And thus contribute to the inability to call out " the powers that be" on racial discrimination or provide the powers that be the data they need to defend themselves against false charges of racial discrimination.

When they come knocking tell em' everyone at your school is a human, and that is all that matters. Well that's nice in theory though I guess? lol
Man just look at how University of Alabama was under fire for that sorority video... I suppose Med Schools don't want that kind of publicity.

 

[LizzyM]

The US Census Bureau really has to update its definition for "Asian race". Not that it makes a difference for medical school admissions since both are obviously ORM, but the distinction must be made between East Asians and South Asians.

Why? Do we need to further split the US population by "race". I do believe that ethnicity is asked as well as "race" so any further splitting is done at that level rather than what is, most broadly, the continent of one's heritage. (with that historical footnote that makes those of Middle Eastern heritage "white" which was a huge advantage to immigrants 100 years ago.)

 

[Glazedonutlove]

How about we all do everyone a favor, and refuse to answer the race question?
I REFUSE to answer the race question. I will not ever answer, ever, ever, ever.

We should all be judged for who we are as a human being, not our race.

Lol it would be pretty obvious from names/photo...

 

[Lawpy]

Why? Do we need to further split the US population by "race". I do believe that ethnicity is asked as well as "race" so any further splitting is done at that level rather than what is, most broadly, the continent of one's heritage. (with that historical footnote that makes those of Middle Eastern heritage "white" which was a huge advantage to immigrants 100 years ago.)

Well, Europe solved the problem quite easily with some reorganization (and I think Canada followed it, but not too sure about it). It's really all about consistency and accuracy. Like I mentioned earlier, South Asians really are similar to Middle Easterners than to East Asians, so it would only make sense to categorize South Asians as white. Or categorize East Asians as something else, as Europe followed.

Historically, the US has a bad problem of defining race anyways. Ethnicity helps of course, but distinctions are so apparent that a split or reorganization is necessary.

 

[LizzyM]

Here's an idea: what continent(s) were your ancestors living on in 1491? 😉

 

[LizzyM]

When they come knocking tell em' everyone at your school is a human, and that is all that matters. Well that's nice in theory though I guess? lol
Man just look at how University of Alabama was under fire for that sorority video... I suppose Med Schools don't want that kind of publicity.

The accrediting agency for medical schools LCME is not going to buy that argument.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Here's an idea: what continent(s) were your ancestors living on in 1491? 😉

Asia
How about yours?

The accrediting agency for medical schools LCME is not going to buy that argument.

So is that why Med Schools care a lot about URMs??

 

[Lawpy]

Here's an idea: what continent(s) were your ancestors living on in 1491? 😉

But that even leads to greater confusion! Simply put, if race is viewed as an anthropological term, South Asians and East Asians are entirely two different groups of people. If race is viewed as a geographical term, then all of Africa would be considered black, all of Middle East would be considered Asian etc. The US Census Bureau haphazardly mixed up both terms rather than simply sticking with the former.

Asia

Not according to Christopher Columbus apparently.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

But that even leads to greater confusion! Simply put, if race is viewed as an anthropological term, South Asians and East Asians are entirely two different groups of people. If race is viewed as a geographical term, then all of Africa would be considered black, all of Middle East would be considered Asian etc. The US Census Bureau haphazardly mixed up both terms rather than simply sticking with the former.



Not according to Christopher Columbus apparently.

Arguably Northern Pakistanis who are pashtun are more middle eastern/white than they are Asian. Same with the Kashmiri people, Hazara, etc

Race is *extremely* complex

Even saying all middle eastern = white is not enough.. What about the Kurdish?
What about the black Arabs?
What about the various other nomadic ethnic groups?

My solution if we must, is just have a box and have applicants write their race out.
We'll see Kurdish, Pashtun, Indian, Native Indian, Inuit, Black, Arab, Slavic, Angl-Saxon, Han, etc..

 

[Lawpy]

Arguably Northern Pakistanis who are pashtun are more middle eastern/white than they are Asian. Same with the Kashmiri people, Hazara, etc

Race is *extremely* complex

Even saying all middle eastern = white is not enough.. What about the Kurdish?
What about the black Arabs?
What about the various other nomadic ethnic groups?

My solution if we must, is just have a box and have applicants write their race out.
We'll see Kurdish, Pashtun, Indian, Native Indian, Inuit, Black, Arab, Slavic, Angl-Saxon, Han, etc..

If anything, your examples would provide the additional merits of increasing diversity that can't be addressed just by looking at the applicant's demographics. And that's where secondary essays come into play. 😉😛

But like I said, race and ethnicity are accurate measures of assessing demographics. The US Census Bureau is good enough, but there is simply one critical flaw that can be very easily resolved just by reorganization or a split. Hey, Europe identified the problem easily and repaired it! It's just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[LizzyM]

But that even leads to greater confusion! Simply put, if race is viewed as an anthropological term, South Asians and East Asians are entirely two different groups of people. If race is viewed as a geographical term, then all of Africa would be considered black, all of Middle East would be considered Asian etc. The US Census Bureau haphazardly mixed up both terms rather than simply sticking with the former.



Not according to Christopher Columbus apparently.

Swedes and Sicilians are classified as white although they are very different but ORM. Eastern Asians and South Asians are ORM so why care about lumping or splitting? Only 5.3% of the US population is Asian alone. Doesn't make much sense to subdivide 5.3% of the population into smaller subdivisions.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Swedes and Sicilians are classified as white although they are very different but ORM. Eastern Asians and South Asians are ORM so why care about lumping or splitting? Only 5.3% of the US population is Asian alone. Doesn't make much sense to subdivide 5.3% of the population into smaller subdivisions.

Wait wait wait wait
5.3% of the population is an over represented minority in med schools??

 

[LizzyM]

Wait wait wait wait
5.3% of the population is an over represented minority in med schools??

See Table 9 https://www.aamc.org/download/321474/data/factstable9.pdf.
Self-identified Asian only applicants (not mixed) make up 18% of matriculants although they are only 5.3% of the US population.

 

[Lawpy]

Swedes and Sicilians are classified as white although they are very different but ORM. Eastern Asians and South Asians are ORM so why care about lumping or splitting? Only 5.3% of the US population is Asian alone. Doesn't make much sense to subdivide 5.3% of the population into smaller subdivisions.

I'm not arguing for a split/reorganization in regards to ORM/URM, but rather for the sake of accuracy and consistency. South Asians make up roughly 1.2% of the US population, so the fraction of Asians under the reorganization scheme would reduce to 4.1%. Hardly any difference, and better than splitting 5.3% into two groups of 1.2% and 4.1%.

I just wish the US Census Bureau was consistent in its definition, and stick with anthropology where its due rather than relying on geography.

 

[Goro]

There are health outcomes riding on this for minority populations.
Here's a little light reading material..I don't have my Pubmed citations handy just now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/o...region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=1

So is that why Med Schools care a lot about URMs??

Actually, if you pick some random schools, it's more like 30% of the classes are either South or East Asian. Even at the HBCs, some 10% of the Class is Asian! As I am fond of saying, Asians are the most successful minority group in the history of this country, even more than the Jews.

Wait wait wait wait
5.3% of the population is an over represented minority in med schools??

See Table 9 https://www.aamc.org/download/321474/data/factstable9.pdf.
Self-identified Asian only applicants (not mixed) make up 18% of matriculants although they are only 5.3% of the US population.

 

[Lyoness]

South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis etc.) are not similar to Middle Easterners (Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis). The only common thing is that they share the same religion, Islam. Except there are Hindu Indians, and there are Christian and Jewish Middle Easterners. And because Arab is not a race, it's a culture, you can have multiple races within.

 

[Lawpy]

South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis etc.) are not similar to Middle Easterners (Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis). The only common thing is that they share the same religion, Islam. Except there are Hindu Indians, and there are Christian and Jewish Middle Easterners. And because Arab is not a race, it's a culture, you can have multiple races within.

I know that but the similarity between the two is more apparent than between South Asians and East Asians. Look beyond religion, culture etc. The race classification is broadly anthropological, and there are many ethnic divisions involved. It would make sense to group people based on similar superficial characteristics than on geography. There are zero non-geographical arguments that can support South and East Asians being grouped into one category, and this include "hybrids" like Nepal, Bhutan and Tibet.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis etc.) are not similar to Middle Easterners (Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis). The only common thing is that they share the same religion, Islam. Except there are Hindu Indians, and there are Christian and Jewish Middle Easterners. And because Arab is not a race, it's a culture, you can have multiple races within.

Pakistani isn't a race though..
Arguably the Pashtun in Pakistan are more closely related to Arabs than they are South Asian. So what do they check, white or Asian?

There are health outcomes riding on this for minority populations.
Here's a little light reading material..I don't have my Pubmed citations handy just now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/o...region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=1



Actually, if you pick some random schools, it's more like 30% of the classes are either South or East Asian. Even at the HBCs, some 10% of the Class is Asian! As I am fond of saying, Asians are the most successful minority group in the history of this country, even more than the Jews.

It's the culture.. Very status driven.. (inb4 I get crucified by a social justice warrior)
There is a reason why almost every Indian kid I know, his/her parents were engineers, doctors, or businessmen.
Of course that might be different in NYC or Baltimore, but I live where most of the Indian folks are professionals of some sort..( I always see em' at the YMCA too???)
I think in my town a good bunch of the doctors are South Asian, or Asian of some variety.. And my town is majority white!
My pediatrician is South Asian..
Of course I don't see a peds doc anymore..
My moms family doc is East Asian..