Northeast OMFS Programs - Need Advice

[BovieAllDay]

I'm a D3 applying to 6 year OMFS programs next cycle. I'm from the Northeast and go to school here so I want to stick around and have some questions about programs. It's hard to know some details when externships aren't going on. If anyone can comment on these programs below please share!

MGH: I haven't heard much about this program lately except that they don't have a chair anymore and most of their attendings left. I heard it's a good program for orthognathic and trauma but if they lost most of their attendings and they aren't doing much anymore, it worries me. Can anyone comment? Is it a good culture?

BU: Heard they do everything in OMFS and hoping to visit. Is the cancer exposure a lot? Can anyone comment? I'm not sure what I want to do for my career but I'd like a broad scoped place. Can anyone comment on culture?

Maryland: Similar to BU I heard. Lots of everything. Is the 6 year program back? I heard that they didn't have it for a couple years. Again wondering about culture here.

Kings County: The famous BTG went here. It seems like the residents get awesome training in trauma and teeth and reconstruction overall. Strongly considering this one as well.

Columbia: I heard they are going through faculty turnover too but can anyone confirm? Heard it does so much orthognathic surgery you'll be amazingly trained afterward. Do they cover much trauma since it's Level 2? I'm worried about limited scope but again I don't know much.

Cornell: Is there any chance they still offer a 6 year program? Heard it's really similar to Columbia and amazing for orthognathic but I don't know how much of other procedures they do. Resident culture?

Would love to hear thoughts and opinions about these places. Thanks to everyone for your help with this info!!

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[Masterus]

All of those programs will provide you solid OMFS training and really cultures at most OMFS programs are solid and more similar than you think (some will lead you to believe they hang out more than others, but honestly everybody gets busy with training and when they have a family, that's their focus!). In this day and age, malignancy is pretty rare because you will get disciplined heavily by the hospital or fired (its very easy to report anonymously to the ACGME) so even the so-proclaimed "malignant" programs have become softer and more normal.

Good luck!

 

[bonzDDS]

Are these the only 6 yr NE programs you are interested in? You are missing a few really strong ones....

 

[CarcinomaInSitu]

I'm a D3 applying to 6 year OMFS programs next cycle. I'm from the Northeast and go to school here so I want to stick around and have some questions about programs. It's hard to know some details when externships aren't going on. If anyone can comment on these programs below please share!

MGH: I haven't heard much about this program lately except that they don't have a chair anymore and most of their attendings left. I heard it's a good program for orthognathic and trauma but if they lost most of their attendings and they aren't doing much anymore, it worries me. Can anyone comment? Is it a good culture?

BU: Heard they do everything in OMFS and hoping to visit. Is the cancer exposure a lot? Can anyone comment? I'm not sure what I want to do for my career but I'd like a broad scoped place. Can anyone comment on culture?

Maryland: Similar to BU I heard. Lots of everything. Is the 6 year program back? I heard that they didn't have it for a couple years. Again wondering about culture here.

Kings County: The famous BTG went here. It seems like the residents get awesome training in trauma and teeth and reconstruction overall. Strongly considering this one as well.

Columbia: I heard they are going through faculty turnover too but can anyone confirm? Heard it does so much orthognathic surgery you'll be amazingly trained afterward. Do they cover much trauma since it's Level 2? I'm worried about limited scope but again I don't know much.

Cornell: Is there any chance they still offer a 6 year program? Heard it's really similar to Columbia and amazing for orthognathic but I don't know how much of other procedures they do. Resident culture?

Would love to hear thoughts and opinions about these places. Thanks to everyone for your help with this info!!

Cornell is 4 year only i believe now, though they have a couple people currently that started at 6 year guys.

 

[Ivy.ch]

I have a policy of not saying negative things about programs on a public forum. Two comments for you.

1) I would open your options to programs all around the country. I would also consider 4-year programs too. Matching is difficult enough - if you limit yourself to one geographic region and one type of program, the chances of matching are that much lower.

2) Rutgers is probably the strongest 6-year program in the northeast, NYU is also solid, so I would consider them seriously.

 

[nonociceptors]

2) Rutgers and NYU are probably the strongest 6-year programs in the entire northeast, so I would consider them seriously.

This, and take away the name from MGH and it suddenly gets a lot less popular as a program

 

[Sublimazing]

2) Rutgers is probably the strongest 6-year program in the entire northeast.

Shots fired.

 

[Likkriue]

A lot of programs are what you make of them. Similar to dental school. Experiences will vary from the years 1-6 for everyone due to different interests, work ethic and personalities. This is why talk of “best” programs is overhyped.

Some people want a better more relaxed residency lifestyle with minimal call and some people want an extremely busy balls to the wall residency where you are pounding out 100 hour weeks minimum with Q2 call. So which is really best? All up to the person.

A few NE 6 year programs you are missing that I could think off the top of my head: jacobi/my sinai, LIJ, UConn, UPenn

 

[Alpha Centauri]

OS is competitive enough. If you are only interested in a fraction of the country's program, don't complain if you fail to match or aren't happy about the program. If it all works out then more power to you. There may be programs you like considerably more that are outside of the NE

 

[dentmass]

To be honest, there’s not really a clearcutter dominant program in the northeast. They’re all pretty similar. NYU 6 year has its free tuition going for it but like other northeast programs It has minimal months on omfs. Very weak dentaoalveolar - place very little implants due to their being a separate implant clinic at NYU dental. They aren’t a very popular program historically but with the free tuition this has made them more popular.

If you want to stay in the northeast, going to LIJ, Kings County, Thomas Jefferson, Mt Sinai/Jacobi, BU, NYU, Penn, MGH, UConn, NYU, Rutgers will give you a similar experience. Every program has its weaknesses.

 

[QuestionZ]

To be honest, there’s not really a clearcutter dominant program in the northeast. They’re all pretty similar. NYU 6 year has its free tuition going for it but like other northeast programs It has minimal months on omfs. Very weak dentaoalveolar - place very little implants due to their being a separate implant clinic at NYU dental. They aren’t a very popular program historically but with the free tuition this has made them more popular.

If you want to stay in the northeast, going to LIJ, Kings County, Thomas Jefferson, Mt Sinai/Jacobi, BU, NYU, Penn, MGH, UConn, NYU, Rutgers will give you a similar experience. Every program has its weaknesses.

that is quite a hot-take
I hope you've interviewed at all those programs

 

[keep2camel]

Can anybody give their input into Kings County's and LIJ's OMFS program? Specifically their pros and cons of each

 

[Van Der Woude]

kings county makes the omfs residents "staff" implants for the gpr. limited gnathics. good trauma and dentoalveolar. don't expect much else. Lots of them do Maryland fellowship.

LIJ pays 4 years of med school tuition i think. Residents don't cut too often. remember asking that and the chief resident stared at her attending like "is he gonna lie and tell him we let them cut?". But it is better than not matching.

As someone who knows alot about rutgers, its a good program: gnathics, nerve repair, teeth, implants: in volume, decent trauma, some cosmetics.

That being said, shreveport, alabama, NOLA, are objectively...better programs with more trauma call and fellowship trained attendings, which is huge, and the higher up you go in this field the more you will appreciate fellowships.

programs doing free flaps will make you a true facial reconstructive surgeon. t4an2bM0 squam? thats a flap. GSW with loss of hard and soft tissue? Thats a flap. stage III MRONJ or ameloblastoma >6 cm? Flap. ORN in previously irradiated site undergoing segmental mandibulectomy? yeah, thats a flap for sure. Oregon, Maryland, Michigan, shreveport, lsu, bu should be higher on your list and programs that I wish I was lucky enough to have gone to, looking back.

Guys like Moreland, Shanti, Ord, Salama, Fernandes, Yampolsky ... man... I should really do a fellowship.

 

[dentistrydmd]

kings county makes the omfs residents "staff" implants for the gpr. limited gnathics. good trauma and dentoalveolar. don't expect much else. Lots of them do Maryland fellowship.

LIJ pays 4 years of med school tuition i think. Residents don't cut too often. remember asking that and the chief resident stared at her attending like "is he gonna lie and tell him we let them cut?". But it is better than not matching.

As someone who knows alot about rutgers, its a good program: gnathics, nerve repair, teeth, implants: in volume, decent trauma, some cosmetics.

That being said, shreveport, alabama, NOLA, are objectively...better programs with more trauma call and fellowship trained attendings, which is huge, and the higher up you go in this field the more you will appreciate fellowships.

programs doing free flaps will make you a true facial reconstructive surgeon. t4an2bM0 squam? thats a flap. GSW with loss of hard and soft tissue? Thats a flap. stage III MRONJ or ameloblastoma >6 cm? Flap. ORN in previously irradiated site undergoing segmental mandibulectomy? yeah, thats a flap for sure. Oregon, Maryland, Michigan, shreveport, lsu, bu should be higher on your list and programs that I wish I was lucky enough to have gone to, looking back.

Guys like Moreland, Shanti, Ord, Salama, Fernandes, Yampolsky ... man... I should really do a fellowship.

King's county is great in terms of volume of patients but not much oversight from faculty/lecturers etc. You are learning primarily off of experience which can be a positive or a negative. What you learn is primarily dependent on the resident.

 

[resiliens]

kings county makes the omfs residents "staff" implants for the gpr. limited gnathics. good trauma and dentoalveolar. don't expect much else. Lots of them do Maryland fellowship.

LIJ pays 4 years of med school tuition i think. Residents don't cut too often. remember asking that and the chief resident stared at her attending like "is he gonna lie and tell him we let them cut?". But it is better than not matching.

As someone who knows alot about rutgers, its a good program: gnathics, nerve repair, teeth, implants: in volume, decent trauma, some cosmetics.

That being said, shreveport, alabama, NOLA, are objectively...better programs with more trauma call and fellowship trained attendings, which is huge, and the higher up you go in this field the more you will appreciate fellowships.

programs doing free flaps will make you a true facial reconstructive surgeon. t4an2bM0 squam? thats a flap. GSW with loss of hard and soft tissue? Thats a flap. stage III MRONJ or ameloblastoma >6 cm? Flap. ORN in previously irradiated site undergoing segmental mandibulectomy? yeah, thats a flap for sure. Oregon, Maryland, Michigan, shreveport, lsu, bu should be higher on your list and programs that I wish I was lucky enough to have gone to, looking back.

Guys like Moreland, Shanti, Ord, Salama, Fernandes, Yampolsky ... man... I should really do a fellowship.

Are residents nowadays comfortable doing flaps straight out of residency having gone to one of these programs?

 

[Masterus]

You are right in that you cannot do free flaps out of any residency, but you should look at it from the perspective that you are exposed to more procedures leaving your opportunities open. This exposure allows you to be more knowledgeable in private practice. On top of this, I have seen providers in private practice misdiagnose SCCa as some kind of gum disease that probably could have been excised w/ margins and closed primarily and then for the patient to ultimately come to clinic w/ a T4 SCCa that requires a fibula. The head and neck system in general is backed up because SCCa is pretty common and you can only do so many big flaps in a week without burning out. If more providers were comfortable excising the small lesions instead of referring the patients out and then them having to wait longer before any intervention is done. You can become very comfortable taking out a T1N0M0 SCCa of the tongue w/ primary closure just going through a program that does head and neck like Michigan, UAB, Jacksonville, etc. It's a quick 10-15 minute procedure you can do under IV sedation or take to the OR on your OR day. You'll also understand the monitoring per ANHS guidelines required afterwards as well.

Even if you aren't comfortable taking out a larger lesion, it is extremely beneficial for you to learn the workup of SCCa because you could facilitate the process by ordering the necessary imaging which will save the patient time.

Yes, you can refer out, but the way dentistry is headed, I could see people are going to start keeping more manageable procedures in house as head and neck becomes more common at OMFS programs. Excising a tongue lesion correctly is one way to start. With the number of programs that do head and neck now vs 20 years ago. I would expect it to be a good exposure to have in your repetoire.

1. Noone can do complex head and neck without fellowship. ENTs require a 1 year head and neck fellowship after residency to do free flaps but all program still expose you to it even though 90% of grads don't. You cannot do a free flap without fellowship these days even from ENT.
2. It leaves doors open for you if you go to a program with head and neck. You can do a 1 year fellowship instead of 2 which is what a lot of grads from "head and neck OMFS programs" are doing.
3. Head and neck is possible in private practice. You can get ENT, plastics or even OMFS who work in a hospital to recon your ablation of the lesion which is what I've seen those instagram famous private practices do.

And more importantly if OP wants to apply to northeast programs, you shouldn't judge him. OMFS comes in all shapes and flavors - there is no perfect program and most programs have advantages and disadvantages. Just be glad you matched. The application cycle is starting to get more and more ridiculous. Each cycle adds more people who didn't match before as well as new applicants.

 

[b2bonz]

I interviewed at most of the 6 year NE programs and here is my take (my thoughts only, take what you want from them). I thought of it in tiers and will only comment on programs I have firsthand knowledge on (i.e. externed there, interviewed or know residents there)

1. Rutgers and Mt Sinai/Jacobi. Rutgers being a bit more intense but Sinai with a better culture. Sinai covers a few sites so they see a ton of everything. They even do flaps with ENT at Sinai which is cool, the program is structured very well and PDs are very invested in residents. Overall the chiefs skills/knowledge at these programs were indistinguishable and the best by far.
2. NYU and BU: Free med school at NYU is great but not much else is exciting about the program, so if I got stuck here I would just be happy I get free med school (I guess?). BU gets a lot of flaps, this is pretty cool but again will likely need to do fellowship if really interested in it. The program is very intense and I would even bump it up to 1.5.... Overall chiefs were not as impressive as Rutgers and Sinai.
3. MGH: I would say the training seems decent. Not a lot of time as a junior and senior. Learning how to do impacted thirds for the first time at the end of 5th year is kind of embarrassing. The name carries it more than anything. Lots of transition there now, so who knows really.
4. Penn: Probably the slowest program I externed at, with a lot of attending handholding. The way the program is structured doesn't give you a lot of senior responsibility till late in the game. Chiefs are struggling with some basic thirds. Weak program, good university name. UConn has a slow feel to it but the structure of the program is great (besides the long gen surg, but there is still like 35 months on service).
5. Kings: IMO missing a lot of training in the "bigger" cases which is the only reason it is under Penn, but in some areas are a lot stronger than Penn and MGH. So I guess in some ways this comes right under NYU and BU.

Don't know much about Jefferson or LIJ. Hope this helps whoever.
FYI I ended up matching in the south, so who knows!

Forgot about Columbia which I will not rank simply because they are a totally different type of program. Its a country club program, that reminds me more of a 9-5 job than a residency. Prepares you for private practice and will surprise you on what they take to the OR. Perfect program if that is what you are looking for.

 

[nonociceptors]

Yep that confirms what everyone knows but too many people are scared to say in case they hurt someone’s feewings

 

[Contach]

Kings County: The famous BTG went here. It seems like the residents get awesome training in trauma and teeth and reconstruction overall. Strongly considering this one as well.

I'm sorry, gotta pause you here. While I watch all of BTG's posts and I think he is a great guy, doing lots for the specialty and is a success in his own right... BTG does full time private practice only. How can you admire his program for teaching him teeth and titanium? The stuff that has made him succesful is likely stuff he did not learn from residency, but instead good business.

Also, I hope you are considering all programs. At the end of the day, you better just hope you match because you don't want to be doing a non-categorical year.

 

[Omfs2022]

FYI some recent changes have made it so many NY programs (Harlem, NYU, Rochester) require you be able to obtain NY licensure which requires a GPR or AEGD .

 

[LegendaryPanda]

FYI some recent changes have made it so many NY programs (Harlem, NYU, Rochester) require you be able to obtain NY licensure which requires a GPR or AEGD .

So it is technically 5-7 years at these programs now?

 

[Likkriue]

I’m pretty sure that is for non categorical spots. Shouldn’t affect categorical positions.

 

[Omfs2022]

Emailed Rochester and they require you to be able to get licensure . Same with NYU

 

[SaskOMFS]

Currently a resident in Rochester. Just for clarity, our non-cat interns require full unrestricted licenses, our categorical residents have limited resident permits like most programs, which does not require you to have completed a GPR.

 

[Likkriue]

Emailed Rochester and they require you to be able to get licensure . Same with NYU

Please don’t spread misinformation. Just listen to us residents and stop overthinking. Categorical spots act just like any other residency. Otherwise how are they going to fill in a gpr spot in the first place?, it’s called a restricted license specifically for the residency you are going to.
Non-categorical spots are different and in New York requires a full license like the person above me said. Just buckle down and apply and stop overthinking.

 

[Tootyfruity]

A lot of programs are what you make of them. Similar to dental school. Experiences will vary from the years 1-6 for everyone due to different interests, work ethic and personalities. This is why talk of “best” programs is overhyped.

Some people want a better more relaxed residency lifestyle with minimal call and some people want an extremely busy balls to the wall residency where you are pounding out 100 hour weeks minimum with Q2 call. So which is really best? All up to the person.

A few NE 6 year programs you are missing that I could think off the top of my head: jacobi/my sinai, LIJ, UConn, UPenn

Where are these residents who want to be on q2 call. I want them transfered here stat.