any thoughts/input on Northshore Evanston program in Chicago?
Northshore Evanston input please
- Thread starter Leukowhat
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I am not a resident at this program but I spend 3+ months there during 3rd and 4th year as a medical student, so I can give you the input from my experience...
It is by no means a malignant program, residents are VERY happy because in general it is pretty cush. There are draw backs however to the less intense approach to training
1) They work under a total night float schedule so their daily hours end up being fairly light. Also, since residents are often done with their work between 2-4 they would frequently sign out to someone between the hours of 4-7 before night float shows up (meaning extra hand offs and potential miscommunications in regards to patient care -- i witnessed this multiple times).
2) It is VERY prelim heavy. Because of the cushy schedule it is a hot spot for prelims in the chicago area. Almost all of my interns as I rotated through were prelims who unfortunately didn't really care about learning medicine and were anxious to get through their year and start in radiology/anesthesia etc.
3) You don't "round". If you are used to a typical rounding type format that isn't what you get here. Patients are admitted in one of 3 ways --- directly by their private physician (who then sees them on their own with no help from residents), directly by their private physician to a teaching team (whereby the private physician works with residents to take care of the patient), OR to the wards service (taken care of by residents without private attending input). On all of these services the residents do most of the talking with the attending over the phone or briefly in person, as a student I never had formal rounds and as such felt like the teaching was lacking in a large capacity.
4) I wouldn't say "go running" from this place, but you have to be honest about what you are looking for. Some of the plus factors are that is a beautiful well run hospital with AMAZING ancillary staff. The outpatient facilities are also well run and if you are looking into primary care it will serve you better in this regard vs hoping to go into a competitive fellowship
I enjoyed rotating at this hospital since it did give me a flavor of a different learning environment, I think my overall disappointment was that so few of the attendings and residents took value in teaching and education. Everything I learned I did so on my own, since my residents were always plowing through work so they could get off...they often left multiple times without even checking out when there was still work to be done on patients.
If you have more specific questions let me know.
It is by no means a malignant program, residents are VERY happy because in general it is pretty cush. There are draw backs however to the less intense approach to training
1) They work under a total night float schedule so their daily hours end up being fairly light. Also, since residents are often done with their work between 2-4 they would frequently sign out to someone between the hours of 4-7 before night float shows up (meaning extra hand offs and potential miscommunications in regards to patient care -- i witnessed this multiple times).
2) It is VERY prelim heavy. Because of the cushy schedule it is a hot spot for prelims in the chicago area. Almost all of my interns as I rotated through were prelims who unfortunately didn't really care about learning medicine and were anxious to get through their year and start in radiology/anesthesia etc.
3) You don't "round". If you are used to a typical rounding type format that isn't what you get here. Patients are admitted in one of 3 ways --- directly by their private physician (who then sees them on their own with no help from residents), directly by their private physician to a teaching team (whereby the private physician works with residents to take care of the patient), OR to the wards service (taken care of by residents without private attending input). On all of these services the residents do most of the talking with the attending over the phone or briefly in person, as a student I never had formal rounds and as such felt like the teaching was lacking in a large capacity.
4) I wouldn't say "go running" from this place, but you have to be honest about what you are looking for. Some of the plus factors are that is a beautiful well run hospital with AMAZING ancillary staff. The outpatient facilities are also well run and if you are looking into primary care it will serve you better in this regard vs hoping to go into a competitive fellowship
I enjoyed rotating at this hospital since it did give me a flavor of a different learning environment, I think my overall disappointment was that so few of the attendings and residents took value in teaching and education. Everything I learned I did so on my own, since my residents were always plowing through work so they could get off...they often left multiple times without even checking out when there was still work to be done on patients.
If you have more specific questions let me know.
hey thanks. btw, im not interested in fellowships. what do you think about this program in regards to wanting to be a hospitalist? anyone?
Based on what?
I was at this program a few years ago and had a great experience (I've posted on this, before).
I can't comment on the current situation...but I know that a few years ago, there were many dedicated residents and attendings who took teaching/learning seriously. I don't discount the above med student-poster's comments - since there is always a "mixed-bag" in any residency class and clearly his/her experience was suboptimal... But I still keep in touch with some of the folks there - and they are quality people who are very invested in teaching.
I would definitely recommend checking it out for yourself and then deciding.
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Anyone interview at Northshore last year? I am interested in your input. The match list seems impressive and I really like the location.
My baby was actually born at this hospital, so I spent about a week here. I was super impressed with the facilities and staff. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
My baby was actually born at this hospital, so I spent about a week here. I was super impressed with the facilities and staff. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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can you PM me as well!?!?! highly interested in the program.
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I interviewed there for both TY/prelim. Hospital is beautiful! The staff is nice, attendings are good for the most part. Pretty cush program, with 3-4+ electives, I think they don't do overnight call (call ends at 9pm??) and I think they have hospitalists who do overnight call if I remember correctly. Highly competitive though for both TY/prelim though.
quick + and -
+not malignant at all, PD's are really interested in how their residents are doing (they did get new staff last year because some moved out of state, don't know the new people), most of the hospitalist teaching attendings and subspecialist attendings are great, ancillary staff get things done (nurses, social work, etc), about 4-5 floor months, 1 ICU and 1 ER and the rest are electives in the intern year (3-4 electives, 4 weeks night float and 4 weeks vacation split, not sure about after new ACGME rules), never went over the 80 hour average weekly rule (not sure how it is with the new ACGME rules), impressive fellowship match list for a community/academic affiliated program http://www.northshore.org/academics...nal-medicine/your-career/fellowship-matching/
-not sure how to compare with other programs but some of the other interns thought the teaching didactics weren't as great as the sites at their med school, some private attendings (1/2 of floor months) don't teach very much, does not have own fellowships, many of prelim (or is it transitional?) spots go to the U of C anesthesia interns, patients in the secondary hospital (spend about 2 months per year there) are mostly geriatric with typical geriatric admission problems
to comment on rockonout's negative points,
1) impression of nightfloat is mostly correct, it's a little different now with the ACGME hours so not sure what it's like now
2) prelim/TY thing is somewhat true
3) med student teaching is team dependent (senior, attending, etc). however, this was brought up in the townhall meetings and the PD's thought the med student's feedback about the teaching improved over time. the teaching attendings do vary. my experience was that the hospitalist teaching attendings are good, although some are better than others. some will do bedside rounds and sit-down discussions about specific topics or go over guidelines and review articles, while some are not so great and will only do sitting rounds and occasionally talk about specific topics. some private attendings are great but some aren't. private attendings don't give you as much independence as the hospitalists, but some will explain why they want you to do something but some will just tell you to do stuff and that'll be the end of it. the residents have some power over this, as the PD's will put attendings on a blacklist if enough residents complain about them
4) ancillary staff is great, facilities and equipment are modern, NorthShore's budget is in the black and they continually expand each year so they're not going to close down anytime soon
to leukowhat's concern, 1/2 or more of graduates go on to fellowship, the others go into hospitalist or private practice positions. in general, IM graduates don't have problems finding generalist jobs. community programs are appropriate for residents pursuing generalist careers because you will see a lot of bread and butter stuff and a variety of people from the surrounding community.
\/ \/ \/ NP. just going to give a disclaimer that this was my subjective impression of the program, and you should get more than 1 opinion about each program, and form your own opinion as well when you visit the program. things always change over time as well, for better or worse. good luck with your interviews and match
+not malignant at all, PD's are really interested in how their residents are doing (they did get new staff last year because some moved out of state, don't know the new people), most of the hospitalist teaching attendings and subspecialist attendings are great, ancillary staff get things done (nurses, social work, etc), about 4-5 floor months, 1 ICU and 1 ER and the rest are electives in the intern year (3-4 electives, 4 weeks night float and 4 weeks vacation split, not sure about after new ACGME rules), never went over the 80 hour average weekly rule (not sure how it is with the new ACGME rules), impressive fellowship match list for a community/academic affiliated program http://www.northshore.org/academics...nal-medicine/your-career/fellowship-matching/
-not sure how to compare with other programs but some of the other interns thought the teaching didactics weren't as great as the sites at their med school, some private attendings (1/2 of floor months) don't teach very much, does not have own fellowships, many of prelim (or is it transitional?) spots go to the U of C anesthesia interns, patients in the secondary hospital (spend about 2 months per year there) are mostly geriatric with typical geriatric admission problems
to comment on rockonout's negative points,
1) impression of nightfloat is mostly correct, it's a little different now with the ACGME hours so not sure what it's like now
2) prelim/TY thing is somewhat true
3) med student teaching is team dependent (senior, attending, etc). however, this was brought up in the townhall meetings and the PD's thought the med student's feedback about the teaching improved over time. the teaching attendings do vary. my experience was that the hospitalist teaching attendings are good, although some are better than others. some will do bedside rounds and sit-down discussions about specific topics or go over guidelines and review articles, while some are not so great and will only do sitting rounds and occasionally talk about specific topics. some private attendings are great but some aren't. private attendings don't give you as much independence as the hospitalists, but some will explain why they want you to do something but some will just tell you to do stuff and that'll be the end of it. the residents have some power over this, as the PD's will put attendings on a blacklist if enough residents complain about them
4) ancillary staff is great, facilities and equipment are modern, NorthShore's budget is in the black and they continually expand each year so they're not going to close down anytime soon
to leukowhat's concern, 1/2 or more of graduates go on to fellowship, the others go into hospitalist or private practice positions. in general, IM graduates don't have problems finding generalist jobs. community programs are appropriate for residents pursuing generalist careers because you will see a lot of bread and butter stuff and a variety of people from the surrounding community.
\/ \/ \/ NP. just going to give a disclaimer that this was my subjective impression of the program, and you should get more than 1 opinion about each program, and form your own opinion as well when you visit the program. things always change over time as well, for better or worse. good luck with your interviews and match
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Thanks for all your insight! It really is appreciated! Out of the interviews I have been fortunate to get, I am really really excited about this one.
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One of my really close friend's fiance is doing his TY there, this is thirdhand info but basically he says it's nice and it wasn't hit too hard with the intern hour restrictions.. some previously cush TYs got hosed with that.
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Just wanted to bump up this old, resourceful thread...any input based on recent years, particularly the PGY-1 year?
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Two hours of conference a day? Like morning report and noon conference? Pretty sure that is standard.
Three admits on a long call day?! How do you survive??
Large academic program here.. eight admissions on long call days is our cap. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy.
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Oops just saw this thread after posting in the program specific thread...
Any other current experience? Their board pass rates according to the ABIM are pretty dismal in the 70%s plus no resident roster listing on their website also seems like a red flag. Thoughts?
Any other current experience? Their board pass rates according to the ABIM are pretty dismal in the 70%s plus no resident roster listing on their website also seems like a red flag. Thoughts?
i come from a program where the schedule, specially on floors, ICU and night, was not as "cush." and we were worked hard. When i compare my knowledge to some of my colleague who came from a program where the work load was lighter... I am sometimes disappointed. You would think with the fact that I worked hard my knowledge would be better. but that is not always the case.
My colleagues who had a more relaxing schedule had more time to read and hence better test scores and also better knowledge which can translate to being a better clinician.
So picking a program cause it is busy, or not picking a program cause it is light is not always as straightforward as i used to think when I was a medical student. In an ideal world you would want a a moderately busy program to get the best of both worlds.
After all there is only so much COPD exacerbations, repeated CHF exacerbations, etc.. that you need to admit before you max out your learning. after a while you just become a laborer churning out notes for the hospital to bill.
My colleagues who had a more relaxing schedule had more time to read and hence better test scores and also better knowledge which can translate to being a better clinician.
So picking a program cause it is busy, or not picking a program cause it is light is not always as straightforward as i used to think when I was a medical student. In an ideal world you would want a a moderately busy program to get the best of both worlds.
After all there is only so much COPD exacerbations, repeated CHF exacerbations, etc.. that you need to admit before you max out your learning. after a while you just become a laborer churning out notes for the hospital to bill.
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My post-interview notes:
0. No pre-interview dinner: Many community programs don't have dinners and this one doesn't either and to be fair, for the number of interview days and their small class, it'd be a burden to ask of residents.
1. Board Pass rate has been 100% this year and upper 90s% the year before. I’m not sure if this was an issue in the past or what Doximity says but someone asked this to the PD at the beginning and again to the residents which I thought was a bit ballsy. Answers were consistent throughout.
2. This conference was organized and led well with lots of residents participating. It was easy for my medical school brain to follow and was pretty much review. Not sure if that’s the best thing though as many other reports at other places still seemed a bit over my head.
3. There is overnight call for residents, but not interns. You rotate at Evanston and Glenbrook (ICU month rated relatively high) mostly. There was some SDN talk that you leave as early as 1-2. At the Interview Day, someone asked if you can leave when you’re done with your work and they said most residents make it a point to stay until at least 3-4 in case of other admissions.
4. Regarding private patients/physicians, I asked about it and the leadership didn’t shy away from it. The residents and leadership seemed consistent in saying that the frequency of that has reduced. They say they are making an effort to stop pairing those attendings with residents and that they've developed a mindset where it's an honor/distinction to teach residents. I do think the residents were mostly genuine. One resident spoke-up when I asked this to say over the last week, only "3 patients" for this resident were private (who had strange suggestions, no explanation) and they did not detract from learning.
5. They tried to sell patient diversity as a unique point and while I heard enough to make me comfortable with the diversity in race and pathology, it’s still probably not on the same level as the 5 major academic programs in Chicago including Northwestern next door. They did mention a huge Mongolian Hepatitis C population (transmission through government sponsored vaccination programs :/ ) and how that population could provide some unique research projects. The Glenbrook ICU was mentioned to have the highest Apache score rating signifying high severity of illness compared to hospitals nationwide.`
6. Regarding prestige, it is a less-known program that I'd still classify as community despite its academic affiliation at the end of the day. It is affiliated with U Chicago as Evanston Hospital is one of its tertiary centers and main teaching hospitals. (That affiliation has recently been renewed). All residents wore UChicago patches and are employed by UChicago and most of the faculty did a good amount of training at UChicago. The majority of the residents were DOs/IMGs with a few AMG MDs and a some MD TYs, but I just want to say that all the residents came off as knowledgeable, genuine, sensitive (in a good way), and modest. I was relatively impressed about this aspect. Malignancy aspect of -10. Several residents on multiple occasions told me that of course pressure was part of residency, but none of them felt they were ever talked down to by attendings. I was a bit hesitant initially with the Interview given the lack of a dinner and when I looked at Interview Broker, there were several days still open so it’s definitely not a super competitive place to receive an interview from this year. All that being said, I was reassured from my visit that this place would meet all my goals and will personally be ranking it highly because I liked the culture.
7. The fellowship match is impressive IMO. If you compare it to a mid-tier academic centers in the area 40+ residents, it’s still respectable with similar rates. There’s only 15 or so residents and all three of them who were interested, matched GI (1 in-house, 1 mid tier university, one lesser known center). They have had motivated residents (MDs/DOs) match into the best fellowship programs for *non-competitive fields* and win prestigious national research awards/grants. A gastroenterologist is also involved in program leadership with all his training at UChicago and he knew my home GI PD and many other PDs.
8. One major vibe I got was “it’s there if you want it”. This applies to research and procedures. I definitely think you could easily find multiple projects even though the pathways are not as well established. 3 months of dedicated time was allowed with the limitation of not being allowed to use them during Intern year. They passed around a pamphlet of research and it was good stuff in high impact places like DDW conferences and I think a recent paper made it to Gastroenterology. As for procedures, the time & place for Centrals, ABGs, Art-lines, Thoras, Peris, Intubation is during the ICU and Emergency Medicine months. There’s a pretty nice Sim-Center program and besides Northwestern, it’s the biggest Sim Center in Chicago with required activities built into the curriculum for every rotation.
9. I know this may have been discussed but think about what you want in a residency. The residents and the leadership are pretty close-knit with there being 15 residents and there is a very non-malignant environment. By the same token, you don't really work weekends and night work is limited. While it seems it’s not as cush as it was in the past, the residents and leadership did not shy away from the fact that they had lots of time for fun outside work. Also, interestingly enough, I ran into support staff who seemed to know I was interviewing for Internal Medicine and that this was one of the days that was happening. That speaks of the smallness of the hospital as everyone from the front desk staff to the nurses seemed to know what I was applying to as I walked to the conference room.
10. I am very passionate about teaching medical students and we were told every UChicago student comes here and they spend approximately 1/3rd of their M3 time at Northshore giving the residents what I would consider a great privilege and challenge to educate some of the smartest medical students in the nation.
11. While I am not from Chicago, this place is clearly a nice location. The surrounding population seems affluent, crime is low, and there seem to be parks to do things in. The city is very accessible, and it's right by the lakeshore and the famous Lake Shore Dr.
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Thank you for the input! I was just looking up this program yesterday as multiple people from our school matched there...
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What exactly did the point-by-point analysis above, written specifically for this cycle, not answer? I really loved the program so I emptied my note book hoping it would generate more interest in the program in the future.
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Med student who ~1/3 of my rotations including some medicine at Northshore. Syncrohnize's take away from the interview day matches with my perspective into the program as a med student. Northshore is a well run community hospital in a fairly wealthy suburb of Chicago. Its not a malignant place by any definition. Many UofC med students will do prelims or TYs there because its a solid, if a bit cush, place.
Unless its changed, only one service has a couple private patients at a time and I think they were trying to do away with this.
For what its worth, my favorite medicine resident of medical school was a Northshore resident
Your post was helpful. I was just wondering if anyone else had anything to say about this program.
This place sucks but let's be real - no one matched here purely by choice. Better than nothing, and fine if you're a TY looking to screw around for a year. If you want to learn anything or do anything more than work as a private practice hospitalists stenographer, go somewhere else.
