Northwestern MSTP vs. Tri-I

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Hi Everyone,

So I've literally tried to restrain myself for months on posting on this topic, but literally I cannot decide where to go and am definitely grateful to have this opportunity. I already made a complicated pros/cons chart of my own and both seemed to fair almost exactly the same but did help me narrow down other choices.

My research interests: Neuroscience. Specifically i'm interested in possibly brain cancer, neurodegeneration, or psychiatric diseases. All with a pharmacological approach. Ideally I'd love to go into academic medicine at a powerhouse institution.


Tri-I Pros:

• Love the administration. I know that I would have amazing support system here in this aspect.
• Amazing research, lots of choices especially because I could see myself being happy doing a cancer/pharm project even if it's not neuro (but I highly would like it to be neuro related)
• Lived in Manhattan for the summer loved it. But my situation has changed since then: I now I have three small dogs and a fiancé and I'm absolutely bringing my dogs.
• Friends in the area. I have a few friends that live in NYC and/or will be living there in the near future.

Cons:

• Cost of living: This is almost the only thing keeping me from being sure I want to go to Tri-I. My living situation would require me to live off campus for at least the first 5 years. My fiancé is about to finish up a Master's in Sociology and wants to do work with non-profits and/or eventually go to law school. He's willing to take any job he can when we get there though. We will probably be getting around $700-1000 from his family per month to help with living.
• If I can't live in Manhattan, I'm worried that it'll make life really difficult/scary to be walking around other parts of NYC at night coming home late from lab...
• I'm sad that my dogs can't have a yard, but we could deal with it.

Northwestern Pros:

• Amazing research as well. I have an organic chemistry background and neuro background and I know that they have many great chemistry collaborations that I could really see myself getting into.
• My fiance's awesome sisters both live in Chicago. One is an anesthesiologist resident right now BUT both his sisters are going to be leaving in two years...
• I got along with the Northwestern MSTP students best of all. I had an absolute BLAST with them. (But Cornell students were definitely a close second)
• I feel like the housing is cheaper/more likely to have more room in Chicago. I'm also from an area where I've ALWAYS had a car. I can live without it... but a car is nice and both my fiancé's sisters have managed having a car in Chicago.

Cons:

• The administration was very nice. Though I felt as though it was more important to them that people finish fast rather than do the best quality work they can in the PhD phase. I want to have support even if I have to stay a little longer in order to have better quality work.
• I feel like overall Cornell has better research since it has all three powerhouse institutions as opposed to Northwestern. Maybe this is an incorrect assessment?
• The cold and snow is super intense, but I could live with it (I'm from a very warm area of the country).
• His sisters are only going to be there for two years and then we won't know anyone there (of course I expect to meet people, but still...)

Side notes:

• I'm also very interested in Bioethics. I could see myself wanting to do some work with it in the future. Especially if I end up wanting to do psychiatry research/residency.
• Fiance does not have a preference of place. Of course he would like to be with his sisters, but the fact that they will only be there two years makes it easy for us to objectively feel that that isn't solely enough of a reason to go there.
• I did do the Gateways program. So I feel as though I'm inherently biased towards Tri-I, but I really could see myself being happy at Northwestern too.

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[ValentinNarcisse]

Tri-I is superior in every respect, but the lifestyle you desire will not be found on the UES. Even Brooklyn/Queens within reasonable distance will not be affordable compared to subsidized housing at Cornell. If you are interested in Psychiatry, it is non competitive, so you will match wherever you want regardless of which program you attend.

 

[jjmack]

Overall psychiatry is non-competitive yes, but that's not true at "the top" programs so it's not that black and white. Also with step 1 scores increasing like crazy it makes MSTP student scores look worse (see other threads about this). I agree Tri-I is better, but don't discount the importance of lifestyle.

Tri-I is superior in every respect, but the lifestyle you desire will not be found on the UES. Even Brooklyn/Queens within reasonable distance will not be affordable compared to subsidized housing at Cornell. If you are interested in Psychiatry, it is non competitive, so you will match wherever you want regardless of which program you attend.

 

[StIGMA]

Northwestern and Cornell are in the same ballpark. It's disingenuous to say tri-I is better in every respect. Tri-I has Rockefeller and Sloan, but if you don't work with a PI there it doesn't matter. Tri-I is only more popular because it is in New York, IMO.

Wherever you choose, one of the most significant factors must be a willingness to be there for at least 7-9 years. Go to BOTH schools again on revisits, and make the decision for yourself.

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Tri-I is superior in every respect, but the lifestyle you desire will not be found on the UES. Even Brooklyn/Queens within reasonable distance will not be affordable compared to subsidized housing at Cornell. If you are interested in Psychiatry, it is non competitive, so you will match wherever you want regardless of which program you attend.

Thanks everyone for your responses! I plan on attending both revisits and hopefully that will help. @ValentinNarcisse do you think it's possible to find a decent apartment for like $1700-2000 a month? I project we'd be able to afford that at maximum, but housing is my biggest worry.

 

[EcoMoose]

.

 

[gutonc]

Thanks everyone for your responses! I plan on attending both revisits and hopefully that will help. @ValentinNarcisse do you think it's possible to find a decent apartment for like $1700-2000 a month? I project we'd be able to afford that at maximum, but housing is my biggest worry.

You're going to have a hell of a time finding a place in NYC that will let you have 3 dogs. There are certainly places on the UES in that price range but they're going to be small. The other thing to keep in mind is the "broker's fee" that you'll get charged for living in non-Cornell housing which, for a $2K apt will be about $3K up-front, in addition to the deposit you'll have to pay. Expect move-in costs to be somewhere between $8-10K. Fees (and maybe rents) are going to be a bit lower in Queens and Brooklyn, but then you have the commute to deal with.

Padlister.com is a good place to start looking to see if this is realistic for you.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Thanks everyone for your responses! I plan on attending both revisits and hopefully that will help. @ValentinNarcisse do you think it's possible to find a decent apartment for like $1700-2000 a month? I project we'd be able to afford that at maximum, but housing is my biggest worry.

No. I would live on campus, which is quite nice compared to that of Columbia. If you go off campus you will need roommates to hit that price per month. I recommend giving the dogs to your parents and focusing on school.

 

[kamikaze1992]

^ from my understanding i think from op is planning to live with her/his fiancee, who is not a student affiliated with cornell for housing. Otherwise, the subsidized housing option is hard to beat tho. I've heard some people lived in BK (the northern parts near the manhattan bridge are not bad though, I've heard are decent stories, but they obviously are still very expensive).

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

@EcoMoose Thanks for the suggestion! Yes, we are talking three very small dogs (think miniature poodle size with all a combined weight of like, 50 lbs haha). Basically cats. @gutonc thank you so much for your input... It's good to know that. Where I currently live everything is dirt cheap and I've never had to deal with real apartment hunting so that info is helpful. @ValentinNarcisse Thanks again! Unfortunately my parents aren't in a position to take my dogs and I've had them for four years now. They are a big source of happiness and I consider them part of my support system so I will definitely be taking them... even if it is agonizingly harder :/ but thank you for the info and suggestions. @kamikaze1992 you are correct! I agree, if I didn't have dogs we could live in married student housing... luckily in year 5 they let you live in Rockefeller housing which allows pets... it'd be a rough ride till then though.

 

[MooseMan3]

Hey Hermione, I interviewed at both programs this season and my research interests are similar (neurodegeneration, immunology, neuro oncology). I can say I agree on most of your pros and cons points, but perhaps I saw different things in terms of research options. I also had an odd interview with one of the PDs at NW... Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss.

In the end, I think they are great programs. My instincts tell me that you should go with the location that will make your life more enjoyable (and thus easier to be happy and productive over a long period of time). I try not to buy into the prestige factor/leadership factor too much... it is probably much more important to pick the right PI that will give you academic credibility and networking potential for residency. Both programs have some good people and neither will hold you back if you choose your lab correctly, so I'd say go wherever you think you'll be happiest.

 

[Fencer]

Well, now you have a MSTP acceptance in a location where you can afford having all!

 

[kamikaze1992]

^ Well, looks like someone here works for UTSW

 

[Fencer]

Missed the mark!

 

[Neuronix]

😆I could always add a third option to the poll...

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Well, now you have a MSTP acceptance in a location where you can afford having all!

I'd be lying if I said that I'm not more conflicted now...

 

[zookeepr]

I have heard some very troubling things about Northwestern. If you go to the second look, make the effort to talk to older students (not just first and second years).

 

[dmblue]

I have heard some very troubling things about Northwestern. If you go to the second look, make the effort to talk to older students (not just first and second years).

User with a post history of 1 making vague claims about something troubling? Care to elaborate on this at all?


Anyway, regarding the OP's cons for northwestern

• The administration was very nice. Though I felt as though it was more important to them that people finish fast rather than do the best quality work they can in the PhD phase. I want to have support even if I have to stay a little longer in order to have better quality work.

-You aren't wrong about this; however, there is a reason for this. Your research during your PhD is not the research that will typically be important for your career later on. Your goal during your phd should be to gain the necessary skills to become an independent investigator. From what I've heard from PI's, administration, and from study sections, the research done during fellowship and/or post doc is much more important for your career as a researcher. The idea is that the sooner you can get to this stage, the better off you will be. My understanding is that there is a push to finish quickly at many (most? all?) MSTP programs.

• I feel like overall Cornell has better research since it has all three powerhouse institutions as opposed to Northwestern. Maybe this is an incorrect assessment?

-Likely depends on the research area, but honestly the individual PI you choose as your adviser and the resources available to him/her are more important than the institution itself.

• The cold and snow is super intense, but I could live with it (I'm from a very warm area of the country)

Chicago is cold, yes, but so is new york. The average temperature for Feb 10 is 2 degrees warmer in NYC than in chicago for the high, and the same for the average low.

 

[zookeepr]

User with a post history of 1 making vague claims about something troubling? Care to elaborate on this at all?

I don't think it's right to slam a program based on my second hand knowledge. I have heard enough, though, to encourage anyone who visits to try hard to contact older students. I think this goes for any program, honestly. First and second years generally haven't had anything problematic come up yet, or are still wrapped up enough in recruiting that they feel an urge to put a positive spin on everything. Try to break through that.

I've posted before, but thought it was time for a new account.

 

[Neuronix]

There are often many skeletons in the closet at MD/PhD programs. Some issues are within the program's control, and others are not within the program's control. Most programs have a bunch of excited, naive first year students recruiting, and thus these issues are rarely openly voiced. Without details who knows what this means.

Also, I do agree that people should finish their PhDs as quickly as possible while maintaining some level of quality control. i.e. I'd be all for 3 first author pubs and done or if you only have 1 first author after 4 years and can write a decent thesis, you are also done. Not all PhDs would agree with this approach of course.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

I agree with gutonc concerning housing shenanigans.

I also agree with Neuronix re: all MSTP programs "have a past", I would go further and state they all have stuff happen not in their control and stuff happen in their control.

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Thanks everyone so much for taking the time to comment! I'm still having a hard time deciding, but I'm officially going to be attending second looks for these two places and UTSW. It'll be hard, but hopefully i'm able to get a better sense of things during second look!

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

@Thr Yeah, UTSW is letting me visit the weekend after 🙂

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

@Thr Yeah, UTSW is letting me visit the weekend after 🙂

This changes the game substantially. The real question should be Tri-I vs. UTSW. UTSW would be a top 10 program if the medical school class was not so large and hypercompetitive. The research opportunities are tough to match.

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

This changes the game substantially. The real question should be Tri-I vs. UTSW. UTSW would be a top 10 program if the medical school class was not so large and hypercompetitive. The research opportunities are tough to match.

Yes I agree that it's making my decision much harder. It's also closer to home. However I'm very liberal and I'm not sure how I'd fair In (what I assume to be) a very conservative student body. So you would say that the research at Tri I and UTSW are very comparable? It's the Rockefeller that keeps me thinking that Tri-I would be stronger if I did my PhD there

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

UTSW is changing to P/F 1.5 year pre-clinical starting next year, so hopefully that will fix the competitive reputation.



Why do you think the students will be very conservative? It's Texas, sure, but I think pretty much any young, well-educated student body anywhere is going to be predominantly liberal (maybe not San Francisco-liberal). What will probably be more conservative is the patient population. Research-wise, I think they are comparable overall, but I'm not sure about neuroscience specifically.

hahahah I have no real evidence of this, but i'm just assuming, which I know is dumb, so that's why i'm going to second look 😀

 

[Lucca]

hahahah I have no real evidence of this, but i'm just assuming, which I know is dumb, so that's why i'm going to second look 😀

As a Texan I'll tell you that Dallas, the city, is Liberal and votes blue consistently by a small but dependable margin. Dallas the suburbs (most of Dallas) is more diverse. Don't this extremely gerrymandered state fool you into thinking that everyone is far-right. It's not Cali, not even in Austin, but all of the cities are generally left of center.

 

[Neuronix]

I went from Philadelphia to Florida, and I definitely notice the difference in political views. I'm very liberal, and I find that some of the faculty, staff, and patients here in Florida bleed conservatism. It has caused conflicts because I'm not shy about believing in things like *GASP* EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE HEALTHCARE *OMG*. It certainly does not endear me to these people.

Should you make decisions based on this? No. Does it come up at times? Sure.

 

[VlLLVGE]

Come to Chicago and let me dogsit 🙂

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

As a Texan I'll tell you that Dallas, the city, is Liberal and votes blue consistently by a small but dependable margin. Dallas the suburbs (most of Dallas) is more diverse. Don't this extremely gerrymandered state fool you into thinking that everyone is far-right. It's not Cali, not even in Austin, but all of the cities are generally left of center.

Well that's good to hear!

I went from Philadelphia to Florida, and I definitely notice the difference in political views. I'm very liberal, and I find that some of the faculty, staff, and patients here in Florida bleed conservatism. It has caused conflicts because I'm not shy about believing in things like *GASP* EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE HEALTHCARE *OMG*. It certainly does not endear me to these people.

Should you make decisions based on this? No. Does it come up at times? Sure.

Ah, very true, very true.

Come to Chicago and let me dogsit 🙂

haha now that would be helpful lol!