MD Not doing any away rotations?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Foot Fetish

Foot Fetish

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
682
Reaction score
1,419
Members don't see this ad.
Would not doing any away rotations harm you if you were an otherwise cookie-cutter applicant for dermatology (i.e. high board scores, many clinical Honors, tons of research, etc)?
 
I'm just a med student but I would guess it would harm you, yes. Everyone else has all that and away rotations, you probably should, too.
 
Yes it absolutely would. What is with so many people not wanting to do away rotations anymore? If it's about the extra work, then you are lazy and don't deserve to match to even the worst derm program, step scores and research be damned. If it's about the money, I'm sorry but suck it up and take out more loans, or don't apply to derm (or a surgical subspecialty). Nobody is making you go into these fields. If that's what you want to do, then shut up and do whatever it takes. I'm so sick and tired of these millennials these days wanting the best but not willing to put in anything to get it. None of you are entitled to ****
 
plasticsday1 said:
I'm so sick and tired of these millennials these days wanting the best but not willing to put in anything to get it. None of you are entitled to ****
Click to expand...

Way to generalize an entire generation based on stereotypes lmao. At least we didn't get everything handed to us. 😉 See what I did there?
 
plasticsday1 said:
Yes it absolutely would. What is with so many people not wanting to do away rotations anymore? If it's about the extra work, then you are lazy and don't deserve to match to even the worst derm program, step scores and research be damned. If it's about the money, I'm sorry but suck it up and take out more loans, or don't apply to derm (or a surgical subspecialty). Nobody is making you go into these fields. If that's what you want to do, then shut up and do whatever it takes. I'm so sick and tired of these millennials these days wanting the best but not willing to put in anything to get it. None of you are entitled to ****
Click to expand...

Hahahaha my man was dying to make a “millenials are the worst” take and jumped at the first opportunity he saw.
 
I didn’t do any aways and got 40/50 interview invites in another competitive field and matched at my #1. Granted I had a very strong application and a strong home program with great letters.

Aways aren’t really reported on your eras unless you get a letter from someone at that program. Some fields like EM basically require aways because they use a formal eval letter for all their rotators and it’s an essential part of the application. Others have more of an unwritten requirement. We’ve had rotators who don’t ask for letters because they don’t want to waste one on someone who barely knows them and already have stellar letters from home faculty.

Best to talk with your local mentors to see what successful students from your school have done with similar stats. There was another thread where a number of ortho staff said it’s essentially a requirement in their field now too so definitely do your due diligence.
 
I think they are waste of money (lots of money) but part of the game for competitive specialities. If they are so essential, why doesn't every speciality require it. It seems to me students do it more to increase their chances since there are only a limited number of programs and doing well or sucking up at a program can guarantee a spot there in midst of all the competition. I don't see a reason to not do them other than money. I doubt that if you suck at them that people will spread the word that you are bad.

I personally think it's pretty easy to do an IM away rotation after so much exposure to IM. But doing aways in surgical subspecialties where you have minimal knowledge is hard and a waste of money other than to increase your chances in the match
 
afib123 said:
I think they are waste of money (lots of money) but part of the game for competitive specialities. If they are so essential, why doesn't every speciality require it. It seems to me students do it more to increase their chances since there are only a limited number of programs and doing well or sucking up at a program can guarantee a spot there in midst of all the competition. I don't see a reason to not do them other than money. I doubt that if you suck at them that people will spread the word that you are bad.

I personally think it's pretty easy to do an IM away rotation after so much exposure to IM. But doing aways in surgical subspecialties where you have minimal knowledge is hard and a waste of money other than to increase your chances in the match
Click to expand...

Aways are the number one or two consideration in ortho when PDs look at candidates. They're all but a prerequisite. I think YMMV with other specialities.
 
VincentAdultman said:
Aways are the number one or two consideration in ortho when PDs look at candidates. They're all but a prerequisite. I think YMMV with other specialities.
Click to expand...

I agree. They are extremely important in increasing chances of matching in a competitive speciality. I just wish there was another way to stratify candidates than making them spend exorbitant amounts of money.

By principle, I don't think they are really that useful other than 1) to see if you're a good "fit" 2) to increase a candidate's chances of matching if they impress at an away
Both these principles apply to any speciality and yet they are not really required in most specialities. To me, it seems the benefit of aways in increasing match probability in competitive specialities make them really attractive for students. I wish it didn't have to be that way so I don't have to spend another 5k doing 3 aways
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Essentially everybody in derm does at least 2 aways. The derm match is absolutely ruthless and you will want to have done those aways to maximize your # of interviews. Even a high 250 step 1, 260+ step2, junior aoa, and decent research does not guarantee 10+ Interviews in derm from talking with many of the derm applicants this year (including interviews from home program and aways).

Operaman who posted above is in ENT iirc, which normally doesn’t value aways. Different fields are different.

If you plan to apply derm, you should do aways. Trust me, you don’t want to be sitting there with only 6-10 interviews when rank lists are due. That would not be a reassuring feeling.

Do your aways, pay your dues in the field that you want, and give yourself the best possible chance of matching because you only get one chance to do this right. Don’t shortchange yourself just because you want to save a few dollars or because you’re too lazy.
 
plasticsday1 said:
Yes it absolutely would. What is with so many people not wanting to do away rotations anymore? If it's about the extra work, then you are lazy and don't deserve to match to even the worst derm program, step scores and research be damned. If it's about the money, I'm sorry but suck it up and take out more loans, or don't apply to derm (or a surgical subspecialty). Nobody is making you go into these fields. If that's what you want to do, then shut up and do whatever it takes. I'm so sick and tired of these millennials these days wanting the best but not willing to put in anything to get it. None of you are entitled to ****
Click to expand...

And yet Step 1 average nowadays from the millennial is considerably much higher. More old man barking at the wrong trees.
 
plasticsday1 said:
Yes it absolutely would. What is with so many people not wanting to do away rotations anymore? If it's about the extra work, then you are lazy and don't deserve to match to even the worst derm program, step scores and research be damned. If it's about the money, I'm sorry but suck it up and take out more loans, or don't apply to derm (or a surgical subspecialty). Nobody is making you go into these fields. If that's what you want to do, then shut up and do whatever it takes. I'm so sick and tired of these millennials these days wanting the best but not willing to put in anything to get it. None of you are entitled to ****
Click to expand...
I lol'd at this. But then thought it maybe isn't a joke? Go look at Foot Fetish's post history on here before you spout this holier than thou nonsense. If there's any truth to the amount of work they put into doing well on boards, they have a superlative work ethic.
 
afib123 said:
I agree. They are extremely important. I am just saying I don't think they should be. If they are so important, they should be mandated across every speciality. For me, away rotations seems to 1) to figure out if the program thinks you're a "fit" there 2) impress the program to increase your chances. Both these things apply to any speciality, but the competitive nature of surgical subspecialties makes aways essential as it can increase chances of matching pretty significantly if you do well, but I don't think they should be primarily because of exorbitant cost of doing aways.
Click to expand...

Well technically it's not mandated.

Look I don't know how it works in other fields because I really only applied for one. But it is a two way street. You're trying to figure out if YOURE a fit as much as the program is. And in most surgical specialties the class sizes are so small that program “fit” is crucial.
 
plasticsday1 said:
Yes it absolutely would. What is with so many people not wanting to do away rotations anymore? If it's about the extra work, then you are lazy and don't deserve to match to even the worst derm program, step scores and research be damned. If it's about the money, I'm sorry but suck it up and take out more loans, or don't apply to derm (or a surgical subspecialty). Nobody is making you go into these fields. If that's what you want to do, then shut up and do whatever it takes. I'm so sick and tired of these millennials these days wanting the best but not willing to put in anything to get it. None of you are entitled to ****
Click to expand...

You had me until the millennials comment. *Rabble rabble rabble* kids these day *rabble rabble rabble*
 
It’s interesting that some fields value them so highly. I understand the value in EM since they do the SLOE which gives programs some objective data from unbiased sources of how an applicant compares to others clinically. I don’t understand what something like derm or a surgical sub can discern from the mere fact someone did a couple.

I could understand the demonstrating interest and work ethic issue if attrition were a major issue in these fields. We in ENT see most of our applicants do aways but I’ve yet to have that impact my perception of someone. I definitely see the value in evaluating your own rotators; we have a number of past rotators as residents and they’ve all been great (and a number of duds who look good on paper we have never had to see again!).

Do derm and ortho and the like do a structured comparative letter like EM does? I could really see the value in that. Hands down the best interview question I’ve ever heard was “which of your fellow applicants would you want as coresidents?” The names that come up repeatedly are very very telling; a SLOE could potentially offer something similar.
 
Foot Fetish said:
Would not doing any away rotations harm you if you were an otherwise cookie-cutter applicant for dermatology (i.e. high board scores, many clinical Honors, tons of research, etc)?
Click to expand...


If you're someone who is likely to look better on paper than in person, then no, it probably wouldn't hurt you. But if you perform well clinically and are likeable once people get to spend more than a few hours with you, it could probably help a great deal -- particularly if you take more than a few minutes to shine. Away rotations also give you the chance to make a favorable impression on a program that could otherwise be just a bit out of reach.
 
DokterMom said:
If you're someone who is likely to look better on paper than in person, then no, it probably wouldn't hurt you. But if you perform well clinically and are likeable once people get to spend more than a few hours with you, it could probably help a great deal -- particularly if you take more than a few minutes to shine. Away rotations also give you the chance to make a favorable impression on a program that could otherwise be just a bit out of reach.
Click to expand...

That's what I had been told in the past. I would definitely consider my irl personality a benefit, as I find that I almost always end up being well-liked in work settings, whether it's in a fast food restaurant or in clinic...but here is my main hesitation: Is the only purpose of aways to have a better shot at the 1-3 programs you do your aways at? I fail to see how that would confer a big advantage to someone who plans on applying to 100+ programs anyway...especially if it's the case that aways are not reported on ERAs. Indeed, it sounds like, with the exception of a few specialties, of which i am not yet convinced derm is one, aways are NOT the med school equivalent of shadowing as a premed (i.e. a check-box item that programs like to see)...it's more of a targeted effort at individual programs. If this is the case, I might just skip the aways unless it's really, really, really obvious that a certain program that im interested in preferentially interviews rotators...but even then, to my original point, you cant feasibly rotate at all such programs.
 
Foot Fetish said:
That's what I had been told in the past. I would definitely consider my irl personality a benefit, as I find that I almost always end up being well-liked in work settings, whether it's in a fast food restaurant or in clinic...but here is my main hesitation: Is the only purpose of aways to have a better shot at the 1-3 programs you do your aways at? I fail to see how that would confer a big advantage to someone who plans on applying to 100+ programs anyway...especially if it's the case that aways are not reported on ERAs. Indeed, it sounds like, with the exception of a few specialties, of which i am not yet convinced derm is one, aways are NOT the med school equivalent of shadowing as a premed (i.e. a check-box item that programs like to see)...it's more of a targeted effort at individual programs. If this is the case, I might just skip the aways unless it's really, really, really obvious that a certain program that im interested in preferentially interviews rotators...but even then, to my original point, you cant feasibly rotate at all such programs.
Click to expand...

Penny wise and pound foolish.
 
Coltuna said:
I lol'd at this. But then thought it maybe isn't a joke? Go look at Foot Fetish's post history on here before you spout this holier than thou nonsense. If there's any truth to the amount of work they put into doing well on boards, they have a superlative work ethic.
Click to expand...

That's a good point.

@plasticsday1, I guarantee you that FootFetish has a demonstrably superior work ethic compared to you, at least within the realm of medical school. You're very new here.
 
Foot Fetish said:
That's what I had been told in the past. I would definitely consider my irl personality a benefit, as I find that I almost always end up being well-liked in work settings, whether it's in a fast food restaurant or in clinic...but here is my main hesitation: Is the only purpose of aways to have a better shot at the 1-3 programs you do your aways at? I fail to see how that would confer a big advantage to someone who plans on applying to 100+ programs anyway...especially if it's the case that aways are not reported on ERAs. Indeed, it sounds like, with the exception of a few specialties, of which i am not yet convinced derm is one, aways are NOT the med school equivalent of shadowing as a premed (i.e. a check-box item that programs like to see)...it's more of a targeted effort at individual programs. If this is the case, I might just skip the aways unless it's really, really, really obvious that a certain program that im interested in preferentially interviews rotators...but even then, to my original point, you cant feasibly rotate at all such programs.
Click to expand...

I think that's a very reasonable question -- and to be honest, I think you have a point. OK, so if you're going for Derm, you will need to apply to a gazillion programs -- just fact of life. And if you're a cookie-cutter applicant of average strength, then you'll reasonably get between 5 and 25 interview invitations from those near-random applications. If you get only 5, then Yikes! Panic time! If you get 25, then you're almost certainly OK. Trouble is, you won't know whether it's 5 or 25 until it's far too late to do anything about it.

If you do 3 away rotations, that's 3 interviews you're nearly assured of getting -- so that's a real plus. You'll also know how you feel about those particular programs and whether you want to rank them high, medium or low -- another real plus when otherwise, you'll have little to go on. If people like you IRL, then you'll probably also have 3 fairly good shots at matching, which, in a field like Derm, is no small benefit - particularly for a candidate who does not necessarily 'stand out' on paper. From a program's perspective, wouldn't they rather select someone they know they like than someone who seems good in a interview but might not 'age' well in real life? You'll also come away from your rotations with useful information -- Things like what you do and do not like about the programs you rotated at. Things that will enable you to ask intelligent questions and also give intelligent answers in your interviews.

I know it probably seems like just another hoop to jump through. I'd just be very scared to forego what might be your best shot at securing the residencies you most want. Select your aways carefully, targeting programs for which you are a strong enough applicant that they won't ignore you for a 'better-on-paper' student even if they do like you.
 
DokterMom said:
I think that's a very reasonable question -- and to be honest, I think you have a point. OK, so if you're going for Derm, you will need to apply to a gazillion programs -- just fact of life. And if you're a cookie-cutter applicant of average strength, then you'll reasonably get between 5 and 25 interview invitations from those near-random applications. If you get only 5, then Yikes! Panic time! If you get 25, then you're almost certainly OK. Trouble is, you won't know whether it's 5 or 25 until it's far too late to do anything about it.

If you do 3 away rotations, that's 3 interviews you're nearly assured of getting -- so that's a real plus. You'll also know how you feel about those particular programs and whether you want to rank them high, medium or low -- another real plus when otherwise, you'll have little to go on. If people like you IRL, then you'll probably also have 3 fairly good shots at matching, which, in a field like Derm, is no small benefit - particularly for a candidate who does not necessarily 'stand out' on paper. From a program's perspective, wouldn't they rather select someone they know they like than someone who seems good in a interview but might not 'age' well in real life? You'll also come away from your rotations with useful information -- Things like what you do and do not like about the programs you rotated at. Things that will enable you to ask intelligent questions and also give intelligent answers in your interviews.

I know it probably seems like just another hoop to jump through. I'd just be very scared to forego what might be your best shot at securing the residencies you most want. Select your aways carefully, targeting programs for which you are a strong enough applicant that they won't ignore you for a 'better-on-paper' student even if they do like you.
Click to expand...

Thank you, @DokterMom. Yeah, when you put it that way, aways can be a benefit if targeted wisely. You've given me some good food for thought.
 
DokterMom said:
I think that's a very reasonable question -- and to be honest, I think you have a point. OK, so if you're going for Derm, you will need to apply to a gazillion programs -- just fact of life. And if you're a cookie-cutter applicant of average strength, then you'll reasonably get between 5 and 25 interview invitations from those near-random applications. If you get only 5, then Yikes! Panic time! If you get 25, then you're almost certainly OK. Trouble is, you won't know whether it's 5 or 25 until it's far too late to do anything about it.

If you do 3 away rotations, that's 3 interviews you're nearly assured of getting -- so that's a real plus. You'll also know how you feel about those particular programs and whether you want to rank them high, medium or low -- another real plus when otherwise, you'll have little to go on. If people like you IRL, then you'll probably also have 3 fairly good shots at matching, which, in a field like Derm, is no small benefit - particularly for a candidate who does not necessarily 'stand out' on paper. From a program's perspective, wouldn't they rather select someone they know they like than someone who seems good in a interview but might not 'age' well in real life? You'll also come away from your rotations with useful information -- Things like what you do and do not like about the programs you rotated at. Things that will enable you to ask intelligent questions and also give intelligent answers in your interviews.

I know it probably seems like just another hoop to jump through. I'd just be very scared to forego what might be your best shot at securing the residencies you most want. Select your aways carefully, targeting programs for which you are a strong enough applicant that they won't ignore you for a 'better-on-paper' student even if they do like you.
Click to expand...
Great answer. Exactly why I am doing aways. I do think part of it is hoops to jump through because people of other specialities are still happy at their respective programs without doing away rotations. But the fact that surgical programs are small sized can be spun into an argument as to why they are more important. Regardless, I think people will be just fine without doing away rotations if they were to go removed from the application process but they will persist because of the advantages you described although the cost is a money sink.
 
I did 0 away and got tons of interviews- but I'm applying psych and derm is much more competitive!
 
Foot Fetish said:
That's what I had been told in the past. I would definitely consider my irl personality a benefit, as I find that I almost always end up being well-liked in work settings, whether it's in a fast food restaurant or in clinic...but here is my main hesitation: Is the only purpose of aways to have a better shot at the 1-3 programs you do your aways at? I fail to see how that would confer a big advantage to someone who plans on applying to 100+ programs anyway...especially if it's the case that aways are not reported on ERAs. Indeed, it sounds like, with the exception of a few specialties, of which i am not yet convinced derm is one, aways are NOT the med school equivalent of shadowing as a premed (i.e. a check-box item that programs like to see)...it's more of a targeted effort at individual programs. If this is the case, I might just skip the aways unless it's really, really, really obvious that a certain program that im interested in preferentially interviews rotators...but even then, to my original point, you cant feasibly rotate at all such programs.
Click to expand...

Have you talked with your home derm program director or chair? What is their opinion?

I know in most surgical subspecialties it is not just about looking good to the 2-3 programs you rotate at. We expect students to learn about our field and they get hardly any exposure as M3s or 4s. It is a chance to get LORs; most people in my field do not care about a LOR from anybody outside of people practicing in our field in academics, and most people know each other. Almost every interview I went on, the first question was, "where'd you do aways?" and it was a starting point to discuss what you are looking for in a program and what you find interesting in the field.
 
Donald Juan said:
Have you talked with your home derm program director or chair? What is their opinion?

I know in most surgical subspecialties it is not just about looking good to the 2-3 programs you rotate at. We expect students to learn about our field and they get hardly any exposure as M3s or 4s. It is a chance to get LORs; most people in my field do not care about a LOR from anybody outside of people practicing in our field in academics, and most people know each other. Almost every interview I went on, the first question was, "where'd you do aways?" and it was a starting point to discuss what you are looking for in a program and what you find interesting in the field.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I did talk to my school's derm advisor, who basically had 3 key messages for me:

A) Aways can be helpful if you're likeable, which he thought I was.
B) Aways can be harmful if you're not likeable.
C) Aways may be unnecessary if I was sure that I wanted to stay at my home program.

Not sure what, if anything, they were insinuating with point C, but I would like to think it was a way of saying I have a good shot at my home program?

But then when I spoke to the derm residents, they made it seem like aways are an expectation...so the issue of aways is still a bit unclear in terms of derm-specific value.
 
Foot Fetish said:
Thanks for the reply. I did talk to my school's derm advisor, who basically had 3 key messages for me:

A) Aways can be helpful if you're likeable, which he thought I was.
B) Aways can be harmful if you're not likeable.
C) Aways may be unnecessary if I was sure that I wanted to stay at my home program.

Not sure what, if anything, they were insinuating with point C, but I would like to think it was a way of saying I have a good shot at my home program?

But then when I spoke to the derm residents, they made it seem like aways are an expectation...so the issue of aways is still a bit unclear in terms of derm-specific value.
Click to expand...

A good summary (above) --

Donald Juan said:
Have you talked with your home derm program director or chair? What is their opinion?

I know in most surgical subspecialties it is not just about looking good to the 2-3 programs you rotate at. We expect students to learn about our field and they get hardly any exposure as M3s or 4s. It is a chance to get LORs; most people in my field do not care about a LOR from anybody outside of people practicing in our field in academics, and most people know each other. Almost every interview I went on, the first question was, "where'd you do aways?" and it was a starting point to discuss what you are looking for in a program and what you find interesting in the field.
Click to expand...

Imagine yourself in the scenario @Donald Juan describes:

Interviewer: "So where did you do aways?"
You: "I didn't do any"
Interviewer: "Oh. Why not?" (Wondering: Does s/he want to stay at her home program, so wasting our time? Is s/he really all that committed to Derm? Does s/he think s/he knows enough already? Did s/he have personal life complications that made aways untenable? Were there academic reasons s/he couldn't travel?)
 
When considering the relative cost of doing an away vs the potential cost of not matching because either (a) someone at the home program thought it was cocky to just stay at home and chill, or (b) you failed to maximize your in-person connections at another 2nd or 3rd choice program, doing aways is a no brainer. Doesn't matter how confident you are in matching to your home program - suck it up and play the part, do the aways. Next question.
 
Foot Fetish said:
Thanks for the reply. I did talk to my school's derm advisor, who basically had 3 key messages for me:

A) Aways can be helpful if you're likeable, which he thought I was.
B) Aways can be harmful if you're not likeable.
C) Aways may be unnecessary if I was sure that I wanted to stay at my home program.

Not sure what, if anything, they were insinuating with point C, but I would like to think it was a way of saying I have a good shot at my home program?

But then when I spoke to the derm residents, they made it seem like aways are an expectation...so the issue of aways is still a bit unclear in terms of derm-specific value.
Click to expand...

If you have a halfway decent personality you’ll do fine on always.

I wouldn’t read anything into C. It could mean nothing, it could mean you get ranked high, but ultimately not high enough to match there.

I mean it’s Derm. Why f”@& around?
 
Not sure if the same for derm, but part of the point of aways for plastics is to get letters of recommendation (especially from big names in the field). I think people trust positive things said on letters if they're said consistently across multiple programs and not just by your home program, which presumably wants to do whatever they can to help you match well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Paying for away rotations as a MD student?
Replies
3
Views
1K
Gonio5
G
M
Ratemyprofessor for rotations
Replies
17
Views
2K
amoxicillin_resistant
amoxicillin_resistant
A
Away rotation from Oct-Nov question
Replies
6
Views
650
Alexxxxx
A
MedschooIsHard
Away rotation rescinded for background check?
Replies
3
Views
1K
MedschooIsHard
MedschooIsHard
A
Away rotation for neurology - should I do it?
Replies
2
Views
1K
collegestud2013
C
Top