Not hiring NP's

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BlackDynamite

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I see a lot of PA vs. NP discussion, and I was just curious if people knew there are lots of MD's who will not hire NP's. If I were choosing, I would want to know this detail.


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Nope, it's bitterness due to the lobbying and independent practice rights.


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From what I've seen, this is practice and region dependent. You'd probably be better served asking on the physician side, since, if they aren't hiring a midlevel, they're the only ones who know why.
 
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First ED I worked at they wouldn't hire NPs for that position at all. Small, rural, 9000 visit high-acuity ED, single physician or single PA coverage. A couple of the Docs in that town hired NPs to work in the clinic, but they wouldn't let them come into the ED. We even had some nurses who did their (on-line, part time) NP program while working in the ED and the Docs still wouldn't hire her to work in the ED.

For these docs it wasn't because of the "independent practice" push, but rather the lack of standardization and poor quality in NP education.
 
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And in my ER, when a new group came in, they let all the PA's go and kept the NP's... They didn't have to sign off on the PA's work. The same with the rural ER's. The NP's didn't require supervision. Right now its at rough parity between PA's and NP's in the ER's locally, not just with my system, but the others in the region. But the region pretty much is all about all the hospitals touting the fact that patients see board certified ED physicians.
 
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I'm a physician and I prefer to work with PA's. Not saying I would not hire an NP. But given a new grad PA and a new grad NP, I pick the PA every time.
 
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And in my ER, when a new group came in, they let all the PA's go and kept the NP's... They didn't have to sign off on the PA's work. The same with the rural ER's. The NP's didn't require supervision. Right now its at rough parity between PA's and NP's in the ER's locally, not just with my system, but the others in the region. But the region pretty much is all about all the hospitals touting the fact that patients see board certified ED physicians.

Big hospitals ran by bureaucrats/administrators, right?
 
A mix... Small medium and large. Big corporate systems, large independent systems and independent community rural facilities, as well as some small rural facilities operating as satellites for the larger systems.
 
Nope, it's bitterness due to the lobbying and independent practice rights.

And your posting out of bitterness makes you different from a troll? How, exactly?

The ignorance of deciding not to hire someone because of letters after their name is asinine. Would you hire a poorly qualified PA over a highly qualified NP? Not even insecure and militant PA's that obsess over the "A" in their title, some of whom hang out here, would try to defend that.

Something tells me you are not in a position to hire anyone, and probably never will be. Of course, this is a message board and you can claim whatever you want. It's attitudes like yours that causes admin to hire 28 year old MBA's to make hiring and business decisions for you.
 
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I've been an NP for 20 years and have worked for local health departments, federal government and small community clinics and in none of those settings was I hired by a sole MD. Hiring in these settings is usually done by an interdisciplinary team via panel interview. I have never seen preference in hiring PAs or NPs. Experience, language ability and how you perform during the interview process matter most.
 
And your posting out of bitterness makes you different from a troll? How, exactly?

The ignorance of deciding not to hire someone because of letters after their name is asinine. Would you hire a poorly qualified PA over a highly qualified NP? Not even insecure and militant PA's that obsess over the "A" in their title, some of whom hang out here, would try to defend that.

Something tells me you are not in a position to hire anyone, and probably never will be. Of course, this is a message board and you can claim whatever you want. It's attitudes like yours that causes admin to hire 28 year old MBA's to make hiring and business decisions for you.
All true, but were I to ever need a PA or NP my bias is towards PA if for no other reason than that they fall under the jurisdiction of the medical board (like I do) and not the nursing board.
 
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There's a state where PAs can't work in psych? Why is that?
 
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All true, but were I to ever need a PA or NP my bias is towards PA if for no other reason than that they fall under the jurisdiction of the medical board (like I do) and not the nursing board.

I hear you. I'm of the opinion whoever is paying the bills should make whatever hiring decision they want to make, for whatever reason they want to make it. Having said that, a smart business person hires whoever best contributes to the bottom line, which is usually the person that can be economically productive with the least supervision and overhead. Personal preferences are one thing, but whether you are a doc in a box, or part of large organization, economics win.

You may have the luxury of being an arm-chair quarterback now, but if you ever hired when your personal economics were on the line, you may sing a different tune. When that happens, your values and priorities change. If you are a slammed FP with little time off, maybe you don't want to dedicate hours each month reviewing the charts of a PA when you can hire an "independent" NP. Maybe you wouldn't be so inclined to hire that PA who is under the BOM when they have little to no experience who has to be constantly baby sat vs. a NP with 10 years of experience. Maybe you wouldn't want to hire a PA whose decisions can come back on your license vs. an NP who has his/her own license and board. Being able to keep your thumb on a PA who is under your own board may not be that great a thing when you are a supervisor of his/her medical decision making and thus potentially held responsible and/or liable for his/her decision making. There is, on average, a lot less of that risk and headache with NP's.

Your retort? Perhaps it's that PA's somehow provide better care having been trained under the "medical model," and you'd go with a PA regardless of economics, time/productivity, and risk. But you have no evidence to show that PA care is better than NP care, and that argument is easily disputed anyway. But it's academic. Why? Because medicine is now 90% run by admin and the government, and they were hired to watch the bottom line. The decision makers don't care in the least about MD vs. DO or NP vs. PA. They. Just. Don't. Care.
 
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I hear you. I'm of the opinion whoever is paying the bills should make whatever hiring decision they want to make, for whatever reason they want to make it. Having said that, a smart business person hires whoever best contributes to the bottom line, which is usually the person that can be economically productive with the least supervision and overhead. Personal preferences are one thing, but whether you are a doc in a box, or part of large organization, economics win.

You may have the luxury of being an arm-chair quarterback now, but if you ever hired when your personal economics were on the line, you may sing a different tune. When that happens, your values and priorities change. If you are a slammed FP with little time off, maybe you don't want to dedicate hours each month reviewing the charts of a PA when you can hire an "independent" NP. Maybe you wouldn't be so inclined to hire that PA who is under the BOM when they have little to no experience who has to be constantly baby sat vs. a NP with 10 years of experience. Maybe you wouldn't want to hire a PA whose decisions can come back on your license vs. an NP who has his/her own license and board. Being able to keep your thumb on a PA who is under your own board may not be that great a thing when you are a supervisor of his/her medical decision making and thus potentially held responsible and/or liable for his/her decision making. There is, on average, a lot less of that risk and headache with NP's.

Your retort? Perhaps it's that PA's somehow provide better care having been trained under the "medical model," and you'd go with a PA regardless of economics, time/productivity, and risk. But you have no evidence to show that PA care is better than NP care, and that argument is easily disputed anyway. But it's academic. Why? Because medicine is now 90% run by admin and the government, and they were hired to watch the bottom line. The decision makers don't care in the least about MD vs. DO or NP vs. PA. They. Just. Don't. Care.
Perhaps, as a solo practitioner, my personal economics are always on the line for every decision I make about my practice. Perhaps, if I wanted someone who was independent of my authority, I would just hire another physician. Perhaps neither NPs nor PAs can be independent in my state and so if push comes to shove I don't want the Board of Nursing anywhere near my practice. And perhaps I don't take third-party payments so neither any administration nor government has any place in my practice.

But cool assumptions there bro.
 
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Late response, but, whatever. When I was a resident, we had all PAs, and, then, an NP came aboard. She did NOT fit. Then, in my first attending job, we had all NPs, and then a PA came on, and she was an absolute train wreck. So, it goes back and forth, as a hospital cultural thing. However, I echo the above, concerning lack of standardization and poor quality of many NP programs.
 
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I've personally never encountered a physician that outright said they wouldn't hire an NP or PA. I do know that given a new grad PA or new grad NP most physician's I've asked said that they'd choose the new grad NP mostly because of their experience in acute/critical care settings prior to getting their advanced practice degree. I find it an absolute disgrace that colleges and universities will enroll nurse practitioner students without any prior nursing experience, especially in the field they plan to practice medicine in. APRNs are considered experts in their specialty and they are no experts if they haven't practiced basic nursing for at least 2-3 years in that specialty. Just my thoughts! Love both PAs and NPs as I'm going for my FNP/DNP at this time.
 
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Perhaps, as a solo practitioner, my personal economics are always on the line for every decision I make about my practice. Perhaps, if I wanted someone who was independent of my authority, I would just hire another physician. Perhaps neither NPs nor PAs can be independent in my state and so if push comes to shove I don't want the Board of Nursing anywhere near my practice. And perhaps I don't take third-party payments so neither any administration nor government has any place in my practice.

But cool assumptions there bro.

As a solo practitioner that doesn't take third party payments, you represent probably < 5% of practicing physicians, and you have apparently never even hired a PA or an NP. Perhaps, your opinion means little in that it is not relevant to the remaining 95% of physicians. Perhaps, on paper, you can hire, but haven't, which makes your take on the issue even less relevant. Perhaps, you missed my point entirely, which was to explain several reasons NP's often get hired over PA's in general, to which any objective PA would admit is true.
 
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I've personally never encountered a physician that outright said they wouldn't hire an NP or PA. I do know that given a new grad PA or new grad NP most physician's I've asked said that they'd choose the new grad NP mostly because of their experience in acute/critical care settings prior to getting their advanced practice degree. I find it an absolute disgrace that colleges and universities will enroll nurse practitioner students without any prior nursing experience, especially in the field they plan to practice medicine in. APRNs are considered experts in their specialty and they are no experts if they haven't practiced basic nursing for at least 2-3 years in that specialty. Just my thoughts! Love both PAs and NPs as I'm going for my FNP/DNP at this time.

What "specialty" are APRN's experts in? And why? I thought ACNPs were the acute/critical care "specialists". Am I wrong?
 
What "specialty" are APRN's experts in? And why? I thought ACNPs were the acute/critical care "specialists". Am I wrong?

APRN=Advanced Practice Registered Nurse. It is an umbrella term for Nurse Practitioners, Nurse Anesthetists, Clinical Nurse Specialists, and Nurse Midwives.
 
Ok, that's what I thought.

The "experts" in specialties (emergency medicine, anesthesiology, family practice, etc) are generally thought to be the residency trained, board certified physicians who spent 4 years in undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3-7 years of residency, and then possibly 1-2 years of fellowship in that specialty.

A PA or NP may specialize, but their basic educational pathways will certainly not make them a specialist.
 
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As a solo practitioner that doesn't take third party payments, you represent probably < 5% of practicing physicians, and you have apparently never even hired a PA or an NP. Perhaps, your opinion means little in that it is not relevant to the remaining 95% of physicians. Perhaps, on paper, you can hire, but haven't, which makes your take on the issue even less relevant. Perhaps, you missed my point entirely, which was to explain several reasons NP's often get hired over PA's in general, to which any objective PA would admit is true.
Recent survey's have doctors like me at about 10% and growing by about 1% per year (and that's slightly increased every year for the past 5 years).

Here's the thing, you were responding to my personal post. You can say what you want about other doctors, but my original post, that you responded to, was about solely what I would do so why would you then not want my take on that?
 
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FNP in the ED? Absolutely not, especially if they are fresh out of school. ACNP in the ED? I can't see why not and think they are well trained for it. PA in the ED? Definitely, tho at first kept on a medium leash and then expanding scope after some experience if a new graduate or light on experience. PA w/Emergency Medicine residency in the ED? Absolutely yes. PA with Emergency Medicine CAQ in the ED? Absolutely yes. PA w/Emergency Medicine residency and EM-CAQ in the ED? Heck yes and I wonder if they are substantially equivalent to an EM physician.

I agree with many of your points except the following:
1.)ACNP are capable critical care providers but they have NO peds experience which makes their usage in the ED limited to only adults which can be an issue in many departments.

2.)EM PA with caq/abbreviated "residency" would be a very strong midlevel provider but it wouldn't be close to an ACOEP/ACEP trained EM physician. I would take that PA over a fresh FM graduate in many cases( not all because there is something to be said about the unopposed programs and the training they provide). I'm obviously biased since I am in an EM residency.



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1. Agreed

2. PAs don't complete "abbreviated" residencies, they complete full PA residencies. I hope you can respect the validity and quality of a PA residency.
As long as if "respect" doesn't mean pretend that an 18month PA residency is equal to a 3-4year physician residency
 
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FNP in the ED? Absolutely not, especially if they are fresh out of school. ACNP in the ED? I can't see why not and think they are well trained for it. PA in the ED? Definitely, tho at first kept on a medium leash and then expanding scope after some experience if a new graduate or light on experience. PA w/Emergency Medicine residency in the ED? Absolutely yes. PA with Emergency Medicine CAQ in the ED? Absolutely yes. PA w/Emergency Medicine residency and EM-CAQ in the ED? Heck yes and I wonder if they are substantially equivalent to an EM physician.

Not sure who you are referring to as I am unaware of anyone who has ever equated a 3-4 year physician residency to a 12 or 18 month PA residency. Doing so would be illogical.
 
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Subtle but important different. At no point did I suggest an PA 12-18 month residency is the same as an MD/DO 3-4 year residency. I wondered if the skillset of a PA with a residency + CAQ + years of experience might be equivalent to that of an EMT physician. It was a question, not an assertion.
I would say the answer is no
 
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1. Agreed

2. PAs don't complete "abbreviated" residencies, they complete full PA residencies. I hope you can respect the validity and quality of a PA residency.

I think verbalizing a preference for a EM PA with residency experience instead of a fresh grad fm resident in some instances would show I respect it? Remember I am a PA-C so I know what we go through


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1. Agreed

2. PAs don't complete "abbreviated" residencies, they complete full PA residencies. I hope you can respect the validity and quality of a PA residency.
PA residencies are not accredited by any accrediting body. While they are good experience, until they have a separate board exam and a board that oversees quality, they are not true postgraduate training programs, but rather merely glorified on-the-job training.

That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to hire a PA who did an EM residency into an EM position- it isn't that the training is useless, it's that it doesn't constitute a true residency in the traditional sense. There's also the whole issue that it's co-opting physician terminology (inappropriately, no less, as residency implies more than a year of training after an internship that leads to board eligibility, requiring an exam to become board certified) to add legitimacy to another profession, which kind of grinds people's gears. When you put in 3-7 years of residency and internship and some dude claims he also completed a residency that was one year long and required no internship, it's kind of eyeroll inducing. Call it something, literally anything else. On the physician end of things, this would be the equivalent of a Certificate of Added Qualifications, not a residency.
 
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Placing quotes around a PA residency implies it isn't real or up to par. That is what I was asking the EM resident to stop doing and respect PA education.
But if "par" is a physician residency what you are referencing is not up to par. It's completely different thing despite the use of similar terms
 
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But if "par" is a physician residency what you are referencing is not up to par. It's completely different thing despite the use of similar terms
To quote jdh, "words mean things." Appropriating the wrong word for a thing it doesn't describe results in much deserved derision.
 
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Recent survey's have doctors like me at about 10% and growing by about 1% per year (and that's slightly increased every year for the past 5 years).

Saweet. So at that rate, in 40 years (roughly) your practice type will be in the majority. I'll bookmark this thread for reference and we'll rehash it then. If either of us even remember.

But. By then, you and I will be in long term care together (as fate tends to work) and I'll be hiding your Namenda just to mess with you. I will be a master at bridge, and will kick your arse every...single...time. And to further mess with you, I will have perfected my walker-to-the-shins maneuver to take you out just as you reach for that last piece of lemon meringue pie in the buffet line.
 
Incorrect. PA residencies have begun to be accredited. The list is short but so is the list of residencies.
Currently accredited:
http://appap.org/about-us/accreditation/

  • Mayo Clinic Postgraduate PA ENT Residency
  • Mayo Clinic Postgraduate PA Hospital Internal Medicine Residency
  • Arrowhead Orthopedics Postgraduate PA Orthopedics Residency
  • University of Iowa Postgraduate PA Emergency Medicine Residency
  • Johns Hopkins Hospital Department of Surgery Postgraduate PA Surgical Residency
  • Duke University Medical Center Postgraduate PA Surgical Residency
  • MD Anderson Cancer Center Postgraduate PA Program in Oncology
  • Naval Medical Center (Portsmouth) Postgraduate PA Program in Orthopedics

These are prestigious institutions that are spearheading PA residencies.
This isn't a true accreditation system yet, any more than Rand Paul's National Board of Ophthalmology. They do not administer exams, no hospital associations, insurers, or government agencies recognize them, they do not issue board exams, they do not conduct CME, and they are not recognized by the AAPA or AMA. These guys are clearly trying to make a push to become the officially legally recognized board down the line, but until anyone with any power says that their credentials mean something, they are functionally meaningless, much like all of the alternate boards on the physician side of things that hold precisely zero power.
 
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Incorrect. PA residencies have begun to be accredited. The list is short but so is the list of residencies.
Currently accredited:
http://appap.org/about-us/accreditation/

  • Mayo Clinic Postgraduate PA ENT Residency
  • Mayo Clinic Postgraduate PA Hospital Internal Medicine Residency
  • Arrowhead Orthopedics Postgraduate PA Orthopedics Residency
  • University of Iowa Postgraduate PA Emergency Medicine Residency
  • Johns Hopkins Hospital Department of Surgery Postgraduate PA Surgical Residency
  • Duke University Medical Center Postgraduate PA Surgical Residency
  • MD Anderson Cancer Center Postgraduate PA Program in Oncology
  • Naval Medical Center (Portsmouth) Postgraduate PA Program in Orthopedics

These are prestigious institutions that are spearheading PA residencies.

Full list of PA residencies located here: http://appap.org/post-graduate-pa-programs/programs/

Agree with MadJack on this one. If ABEM would be willing to give a test for those PA/NPs in these "residencies" that would go a long way in legitimizing them. Personally I would vote against it because at some point physicians need to protect their brand to prevent further blurring of these confusing lines.

As an aside, two days ago I had a NP on my off service rotation introducing herself as Dr. in front of my patient. Also having to present cases to the NPs makes this rotation pretty worthless IMHO. Plus the dogmatic practices are putting patients into harms way.....I've also had two PAs have similar shenanigans occur. So that is why I'm becoming more on the physician side of both brand as well as patient protection.


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It is the same group that accredits PA schools. It is entirely a "true" accreditation service.

That's fair enough but wouldn't you want the gold standard of each specialty (ABEM,ACOG, etc..) to have a say in these residencies?


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It is the same group that accredits PA schools. It is entirely a "true" accreditation service.
The APPAP is not the AAPA. They are a separate organization that has the tacit support of the AAPA, but are not directly linked to it in any legal way, they basically just say, "oh these guys are okay I guess." There is a difference between supporting the goals of an organization and legally recognizing it as an accrediting body. The AAPA recognizes the APPAP as an organization, but not as an entity with legal accreditation power that sets an enforceable standard.
 
Yes. Yes, you are absolutely correct. The APPAP is not the AAPA. They are in fact separate organizations and have no legal link. The ARC-PA is, however, a legal accreditation body and they are the ones who accredit all PA programs. The ARC-PA is also the accreditation body for the handful of accredited PA residencies. You've mistaken the AAPA for the ARC-PA.
While they are technically accredited, from the ARC-PA: "The ARC-PA has placed the accreditation process for clinical postgraduate PA programs in abeyance while it studies a different type of process to recognize program educational quality. During this review period, the programs below remain accredited and their next reviews will be scheduled at a later date."

Basically they recognize that their standards for postgraduate PA education are completely arbitrary and need standardization and evaluation. The link you had posted previously was not to the ARC-PA, so I was addressing that particular organization. Hardly what I'd call a legitimate accreditation standard, particularly with zero testing involved and no insurers, governmental organizations, or hospitals recognizing it and no testing of students or outcomes being offered.

http://www.arc-pa.org/accreditation/postgraduate-programs/accredited-programs/
 
Saweet. So at that rate, in 40 years (roughly) your practice type will be in the majority. I'll bookmark this thread for reference and we'll rehash it then. If either of us even remember.

But. By then, you and I will be in long term care together (as fate tends to work) and I'll be hiding your Namenda just to mess with you. I will be a master at bridge, and will kick your arse every...single...time. And to further mess with you, I will have perfected my walker-to-the-shins maneuver to take you out just as you reach for that last piece of lemon meringue pie in the buffet line.
Truthfully, I fully expect single payer to become a thing long before I retire (I'm only 33) so it likely won't be an issue.
 
Do you also expect a compensation decline as well for physicians as well? What time frame do you think this will happen in?
No clue to either. Keep in mind that I expect to work for at least another 30-35 years and anyone who says they can predict 20 years or more in the future is full of crap.
 
And back to the OP: Another hospital I work for just said they won't hire NPs anymore for the ED. Keep having too many issues with their clinical decision making. Probably shouldn't send home 25 day old kids with a fever of 39, or LOLs with a sodium of 128.
 
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That's discouraging but not my experience. I'm a hospitalist NP, or will be once my onboarding process is completed.
 
Makati- a little late to the discussion here, but thought I should mention that the CAQ in EM for PAs was written by a group that included ACEP committee docs. ACEP is very tight with SEMPA, to the extent that their past president stated a few years ago (while in office) that PAs are the non-physician provider of choice in emergency medicine.
 
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Makati- a little late to the discussion here, but thought I should mention that the CAQ in EM for PAs was written by a group that included ACEP committee docs. ACEP is very tight with SEMPA, to the extent that their past president stated a few years ago (while in office) that PAs are the non-physician provider of choice in emergency medicine.

To me that is a good thing and helps to legitimize the CAQ. My current site it's all PAs( well trained in my opinion) and only one NP( also well trained.).

It's odd though some of my colleagues prefer NPs over PAs.



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It's odd though some of my colleagues prefer NPs over PAs.

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They probably are worried about potential liability for signing notes if it is an NP "independent" state
 
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How much training did you have in EKG interpretation and x-ray interpretation while in NP school?

Probably not as much training in x-ray interpretation as a radiologist. Do PA's utilize their services like everyone else, or do they fall back on what they learned in PA school?
 
They probably are worried about potential liability for signing notes if it is an NP "independent" state

They probably wouldn't need to sign notes if its an NP independent state. In mine, they don't, unless the facility policy requires it... which most do anyway.
 
PAs interpret EKGs and xrays when first done. Overreads are nice but can take time, something which not all patients have lots of.

If that's the case, most of the time they are sitting in front of an MD/DO, not in fast track.
 
PAs interpret EKGs and xrays when first done. Overreads are nice but can take time, something which not all patients have lots of.

Would it surprise you to find out that a lot of nurses know how to read EKG's? Some don't, but a lot of us do.
 
They probably wouldn't need to sign notes if its an NP independent state. In mine, they don't, unless the facility policy requires it... which most do anyway.
all the facilities I know of that use both PAs and NPs in the ER require cosignatures for both as hospital(not state) policy
 
If that's the case, most of the time they are sitting in front of an MD/DO, not in fast track.
lots of PAs and NPs work solo in the ER in rural areas without a doc around at all. 1 of my solo gigs is PA only, another uses PA and NP interchangeably(although PAs outnumber NPs 3:1).
also lots of fast track PAs/NPs read their own films and ekgs.
 
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