Not sure about my PI and recommendation letter

[cardioplegia]

Hello,

I have been working for my lab for two years as a research volunteer student. Basically I am not sure whether if I should still ask my PI to write a letter for me (a one that I can trust to use)? He said he was willing to write one and encouraged me to ask for another one from our collaborator.

We recently had a difference about if I can go home for 2-3 months and study for MCAT. I think this is reasonable because another post-bac from the lab next door gets to stay home for MCAT while getting paid, and I have produced some useful work for our team.

My boss thinks that there is never a good time to stop for MCAT, and I should have taken the chance when he let me go home last time (I will explain why I didn't just leave everything and go home for MCAT).

What I did during the course of 2 years were basically:
1. Produced core figures for the manuscript recently submitted to a first tier journal (I am 2nd author)
2. Maintenance of mice (>50 cages), cell lines, and bargain price/discount with industry.
3. Established experimental systems that are important for this paper and future work for our lab, and able to teach and train our post-docs.
4. Modified/re-designed existing methods so the cost is only a fraction of the commercial ones.
5. Improved methods to address more complex biological questions.
6. Provided insight and guidance in terms of experimental design, technical draw backs, and limitations on data interpretation. (In my field of study)
7. Helped my PI to review a specific section (in my field of study) of other manuscript turned to him(1-2 tier journals)
8. I am using what I know to provide collaboration with another PI which will result an extra paper.

I work on weekend as well, and I rarely ask for leave.

Why I didn't go home and study when he gave me the chance:

He said I should go home and study. However he also said I was dragging everybody behind because I didn't finish the figure, and we needed to submit ASAP. (So, basically I am the dead weight)

We were at the final stage of submitting the paper, and we needed in-vivo data as well as other supportive data from cell line. I did it because nobody else knew how to do it (Experiments+data process). I also did figure edition (re-color, re-organize, data visualization, 3D animation), and data analysis of other experiments (which was supposed to be the first author's job)

I don't know if I explained clearly, but he basically told me to go home but still assigned me tasks and asked me about the progress. Besides, he constantly reminded me that I am dragging everybody behind. If I really left and stayed home back then, the paper would still be under making right now.

Today, I was a little taken aback during our conversation, and I asked him politely, do you think I work hard and provide something to our team?

He said your work doesn't count unless it becomes a published figure. (I kinda agree with this a little bit)

Our senior lab members said they are happy to write letter to me and will back me up if medical schools reach to them for reference.

Should I still ask him for a letter? Is it worth staying for couple of more months? I am currently working to establish a new method that will be great to address questions on single molecule level, but I am happy to take my work to a different lab.


Thank you everyone
Any input will be appreciated

PS.
1. Making stuff work in vivo was hard, I was surprised that it worked within 3 months, and we worked with samples that were hard to come by.
2. My PI routinely tells me that I am stupid (including times while colleagues from other labs are around), but somehow he is not aware of that.

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[FistLength]

Red flag is if he asked you to go to get a letter from other members of the team, calls you stupid, etc. What you could do is have other senior members write a beautiful letter and have him sign off on it (as in, it would be signed by 2 people). I would be hesitant, based on what has been written, to solely trust him for a stellar letter.

His statement "your work doesn't count unless it becomes published" is 100% true.

 

[cardioplegia]

Red flag is if he asked you to go to get a letter from other members of the team, calls you stupid, etc. What you could do is have other senior members write a beautiful letter and have him sign off on it (as in, it would be signed by 2 people). I would be hesitant, based on what has been written, to solely trust him for a stellar letter.

His statement "your work doesn't count unless it becomes published" is 100% true.

Thank you!

I agree with the "no publication no work" thing. However, I probably won't be able to stick around for like another 1-2 years. I will discuss your idea with our lab members to see if that could be done.

Do you think if I can ask him to write a letter and check it?

About the publication and work thing, I think it was more like... that he personally doesn't think I am working until I produced a published figure. Like, I can debug and fine tune the system so it works for our lab efficiently and cheaply, but those optimization and learning process take time, and he thinks those are not work. He would say something like "I don't know what you have been doing for the past 3 months" or "You didn't do anything for the past 3 months". This is what I am most afraid of.

 

[FistLength]

Do you think if I can ask him to write a letter and check it?

If you mean, that he writes a letter, and you then look at it to see if it is to your liking, then this is a very awkward situation and in general you sign a waiver stating that you will not read the LOR before asking letter writers for their recommendation. This is not a recommended strategy.

Your senior lab partners are likely the most knowledgeable regarding how he writes letters/ if they think he will write a strong letter for you.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

A PI letter is only mandatory if you're pursuing MD-PhD.

 

[FinPreMed2020]

I agree with FistLength. If he told you that you should ask others as well, it probably means that he isn't sure if he'll write the letter and in case he will, it prolly won't be good one. Also the fact that he called you stupid... If the truly thinks you are by definition stupid aka not-intelligent, then what good could he possibly say in the letter? If he doesn't believe in your abilities then how could he convince someone else to do so?
The LORs struggle is real!

 

[infectiousdisease101]

It's not a struggle if you stay on top of things and ask potential letter writers if they are willing to write you a letter as soon as you finish the semester/quarter (for professors) or when you're done working under them.

I make sure to showcase myself and ask them as soon as I was done with them to get an idea of where my letter pool stands.

 

[FinPreMed2020]

I'm so conflicted! My pre-health advisor told me that I shouldn't ask anyone to write me letters until my junior spring semester, maybe even the fall prior to applying. I'm currently a sophomore and I do have potential LOR writers but I haven't talked to them about the letters.
The way I see it, it's way better to have someone write the letter and then when it's time to apply, just copy what they had written before. Does that make sense? Like if I ask my current professor to write me a letter in two years from now when I'll apply, he most likely wont remember anything. Thus it would be more convenient to have him write the letter before and then just copy it. Also, waiting until the spring semester of my junior year puts enormous pressure to ask for the letters if I haven't secured any letters yet.
I really don't know what to do. My advisor is telling me not to ask anything right now but it would make more sense to ask before they forget about me... That's why LORs are a struggle! 😀

 

[infectiousdisease101]

There's a reason they're called advisors. They only tell you information and you decide what to do with them. If you follow the advice of someone else to the letter, then it's not an advice, it's an order.

 

[FinPreMed2020]

You're right. Sometimes I just get a little overwhelmed of the whole "path to medical school" process and listen to all advices without critically thinking about them first.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

I didn't really take my ECs or pathway to medicine seriously until my 4th year (I graduated in 6). Doing it late made me realize the resources that are hiding in plain sight that only few notice and utilize and allowed me to be more independent.

 

[cardioplegia]

If you mean, that he writes a letter, and you then look at it to see if it is to your liking, then this is a very awkward situation and in general you sign a waiver stating that you will not read the LOR before asking letter writers for their recommendation. This is not a recommended strategy.

Your senior lab partners are likely the most knowledgeable regarding how he writes letters/ if they think he will write a strong letter for you.

Yeah I was wondering if this would be too awkward. I think you are right, I will hold off on that thought. Thank you!

 

[cardioplegia]

A PI letter is only mandatory if you're pursuing MD-PhD.

Thanks, I didn't know that....I do consider MD/PhD, but I guess maybe I can just do M.D.

 

[cardioplegia]

I agree with FistLength. If he told you that you should ask others as well, it probably means that he isn't sure if he'll write the letter and in case he will, it prolly won't be good one. Also the fact that he called you stupid... If the truly thinks you are by definition stupid aka not-intelligent, then what good could he possibly say in the letter? If he doesn't believe in your abilities then how could he convince someone else to do so?
The LORs struggle is real!

Hi, thank you for the input. Maybe it will be helpful if I provide more detail,

When we were discuss submitting the paper and taking a break for MCAT, my PI and I were looking at M.D/PhD and other programs, and I asked can you write a letter for me? Here are pretty much the exact quote:
"Of course, maybe you should also ask XXX for letter, he seems to like you enough".
So does that mean he was willing to write one, but wants me to get an extra one to strengthen my application or he was trying to push me to our collaborator?

So, I am also like...super confused about the intelligent thing. My work (including techniques, analysis and design of experiments) was fairly well received by other staff scientists post-docs, and clinical research fellows, and my PI also consults/asks me for opinions and solutions on specific questions in my field of study, and he recommended me when other labs want to collaborate, so isn't he supposed to worry about these if he really thinks I am not capable of anything?

Last time he wrote a recommendation letter for me in order to apply for another training program, he directly sent his letter to me though, and it was nice, but I don't know if this time would be the same. I felt like I have been working for him faithfully, didn't know if it was something I have done or something I haven't......? OMG.....

 

[FinPreMed2020]

Hi, thank you for the input. Maybe it will be helpful if I provide more detail,

When we were discuss submitting the paper and taking a break for MCAT, my PI and I were looking at M.D/PhD and other programs, and I asked can you write a letter for me? Here are pretty much the exact quote:
"Of course, maybe you should also ask XXX for letter, he seems to like you enough".
So does that mean he was willing to write one, but wants me to get an extra one to strengthen my application or he was trying to push me to our collaborator?

So, I am also like...super confused about the intelligent thing. My work (including techniques, analysis and design of experiments) was fairly well received by other staff scientists post-docs, and clinical research fellows, and my PI also consults/asks me for opinions and solutions on specific questions in my field of study, and he recommended me when other labs want to collaborate, so isn't he supposed to worry about these if he really thinks I am not capable of anything?

Last time he wrote a recommendation letter for me in order to apply for another training program, he directly sent his letter to me though, and it was nice, but I don't know if this time would be the same. I felt like I have been working for him faithfully, didn't know if it was something I have done or something I haven't......? OMG.....

Hey! Well if that's how he put it then I think he just wanted to give you the name of another professor who could write a decent letter. In other words, he was just helping you and yeah now I would say that definitely consider asking him to write a letter.
Also, if he suggested you to help with another lab then clearly he knows your abilities. Every research at every university is expensive and no professor would recommend someone who could potentially make a drastic mistake and thus cost money for the research.
Overall, I think you should definitely ask him for a letter! It's your own decision whether or not to use it.
Plus remember that sometimes the professors who seem to get up on the wrong side of the bed every morning, turn out to write amazing letters. Not many people ask them for a letter! 😉

 

[cardioplegia]

Hey! Well if that's how he put it then I think he just wanted to give you the name of another professor who could write a decent letter. In other words, he was just helping you and yeah now I would say that definitely consider asking him to write a letter.
Also, if he suggested you to help with another lab then clearly he knows your abilities. Every research at every university is expensive and no professor would recommend someone who could potentially make a drastic mistake and thus cost money for the research.
Overall, I think you should definitely ask him for a letter! It's your own decision whether or not to use it.
Plus remember that sometimes the professors who seem to get up on the wrong side of the bed every morning, turn out to write amazing letters. Not many people ask them for a letter! 😉

I know it is too early to say anything, but thanks to your words I can sleep tonight... thank you. LOL

 

[FinPreMed2020]

I know it is too early to say anything, but thanks to your words I can sleep tonight... thank you. LOL

I'm glad I could help!
There are so many more or less mean people on SDN that I really want to share my positive vibes to everyone! Sleep tight don't let the bed bugs bite! Zzzz... 😴

 

[plasticdiscoball]

What a tough situation. I can see why you're nervous about the letter. You definitely can't ask to see the LOR after your PI is done writing it - that would be weird and very awkward, if not insulting to him. However, when you ask your PI for the letter, make sure to meet him in person and ask him, "Can you write me a strong, positive LOR? Is there anything negative you might have to put in the letter?" If there is any sort of hesitation, then definitely don't use his letter. But if he seems enthusiastic, I think you're good to go. Only a truly evil person would say yes to the first question and no to the second, and then turn around and write you a bad letter. Your PI sounds strict and intense but not evil.

 

[FistLength]

I'm so conflicted! My pre-health advisor told me that I shouldn't ask anyone to write me letters until my junior spring semester, maybe even the fall prior to applying. I'm currently a sophomore and I do have potential LOR writers but I haven't talked to them about the letters.
The way I see it, it's way better to have someone write the letter and then when it's time to apply, just copy what they had written before. Does that make sense? Like if I ask my current professor to write me a letter in two years from now when I'll apply, he most likely wont remember anything. Thus it would be more convenient to have him write the letter before and then just copy it. Also, waiting until the spring semester of my junior year puts enormous pressure to ask for the letters if I haven't secured any letters yet.
I really don't know what to do. My advisor is telling me not to ask anything right now but it would make more sense to ask before they forget about me... That's why LORs are a struggle! 😀

In time you will realize that, in general, pre med advisers are remarkably successful in giving bad advice.

 

[FinPreMed2020]

In time you will realize that, in general, pre med advisers are remarkably successful in giving bad advice.

Yikes! I'll keep that in mind... 🙂

 

[akuko2]

Get a reference letter from whoever you think will be your best advocate and write the strongest letter. I was in a similar situation because my PI thought I wanted to do a PhD. Didn't get a LOR from him or on any publication for a lot of work I did, but as long as you can convey what you learned and the skills you gained, you'll do great.

 

[cardioplegia]

Thank you everyone.

Updates: My collaborator is willing to write a great letter for me and he knows me fairly well as he is the other corresponding author. Interestingly, he still recommended that I ask my PI for a letter. He thinks my PI is just at a sub-optimal mood because the paper is hanging in the air.


Thank you for the advice and input, it helped me greatly.

 

[cardioplegia]

Get a reference letter from whoever you think will be your best advocate and write the strongest letter. I was in a similar situation because my PI thought I wanted to do a PhD. Didn't get a LOR from him or on any publication for a lot of work I did, but as long as you can convey what you learned and the skills you gained, you'll do great.

Thank you, I think I just did what you suggested today and it went pretty well.

 

[cardioplegia]

What a tough situation. I can see why you're nervous about the letter. You definitely can't ask to see the LOR after your PI is done writing it - that would be weird and very awkward, if not insulting to him. However, when you ask your PI for the letter, make sure to meet him in person and ask him, "Can you write me a strong, positive LOR? Is there anything negative you might have to put in the letter?" If there is any sort of hesitation, then definitely don't use his letter. But if he seems enthusiastic, I think you're good to go. Only a truly evil person would say yes to the first question and no to the second, and then turn around and write you a bad letter. Your PI sounds strict and intense but not evil.

Thank you for your understanding of my situation. I think this is probably a good strategy to try when I ask my PI for a letter. At least I know the other corresponding author will write a letter for me.