Not sure if I am considered a non traditional, but I am seeking advice

[Tommyguns89]

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Currently I am a 1L, studying for finals. However that is actually not important at all since I am pretty sure I will drop out regardless of my grades. I actually dont mind law school or the actual study of law. The problem is that the job market for lawyers is garbage(everyone has known this for years). I never went in to law school with the intention of working biglaw. That is why I took a scholarship. My problem with the profession is that if I get a job it will likely be one that involves a lot of conflict. I didnt truly contemplate the adversarial nature of law until recently. Its not that I am opposed to conflict, rather I am opposed to conflict over what really amounts to arbitrary matters. I dont want to spend a 30 year career arguing over things that wouldnt really matter in a perfect world. As previously mentioned that is the best case scenario. I know there are fields of law where this isnt true but they dont interest me either and I could easily end up unemployed. I havent dumped any money into law school as I was on a scholarship, but I dont want to waste any more time on something I am not interested in.

Now I DONT KNOW if I want to do med school. I would need to do a post bach program, take the MCAT and do all the volunteer/research/shadowing that is required to gain entrance. However it is something I am considering. Anything science related is where I am turning my focus too. I want to do something that matters(yes I know law is important), and makes life better for everyone.

I am wondering if there are any post-bach programs out there that would fulfill the course work requirement for med school application, but still leave other career options open if I decide Med school isnt for me. I dont want to make the same mistake I made with law school.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Welcome to the nontrad forum. You came to the right place.

Postbac programs, either formal or self-constructed, will get you the required classes for medical school but won't do much else. If you take one you will end up with a year each of general chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and biology. That won't help you with any other career, although it would be a good start on a chemistry, biology or physics major if you change your mind about medical school and decide a career in science is right for you. Completing that major would probably take another year or so of college. Depending on the field, graduate work might be necessary to get a decent job afterward. If you do a self-constructed postbac program at any 4-year college, I suppose you could add classes to simultaneously raise your GPA and prepare you for an entirely different career. Because dropping everything to take 32+ credits of tough classes is a major undertaking, I recommend that you not start down this road unless you are totally committed to medical school from the beginning. I think that if I wasn't, I would have quit around halfway through and ended up with nothing but a working knowledge of general chemistry for my trouble.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Now I DONT KNOW if I want to do med school...Anything science related is where I am turning my focus too. I want to do something that matters(yes I know law is important), and makes life better for everyone.

Shadowing is key. I am such a believer in it that I'd recommend it for anyone deciding on any job or career.

Something I've noticed since i've come back to school is that a fair number of professors will try to "pick off" potential PhD candidates among the pre-meds so there is that route if you like research.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Hey guys thanks for the replies.

Just a question, what in your opinion is the biggest factor that makes people regret medical school. Or common ones.

The reason why I think I would enjoy medicine is the same reason I was attracted to law. I genuinely want to help people or the community(I wanted to either be a prosecutor, or work in torts/personal injury). I see a few similarities between law and medicine. Both fields seem to be a web in which you must immerse yourself in to be successful. The difference is one web is natural(the human body) and the other in man made(laws). I think that is why I see myself wanting to be a doctor more than a lawyer. The man made web seems too arbitrary to me.

Another similarity is the client contact. The one thing I loved about law school was one of the volunteer clinics I was able to do. I was put in direct contact with clients, and that was rewarding even though I had no idea what I was doing(I was in law school for about a month at that point lol)

I guess I am wondering if I am just setting myself up to be disappointed again or if this would be worth pursuing because like the other poster said, even just doing a post bac will be expensive in time and money.

Also is there any good way to see if you can handle the course material? I dont have a science background and I dont want to waste my time with a post bac if I am just not able to handle the material for some reason.

 

[Marika11]

Have you ever considered patent law? It requires knowledge and appreciation for both science and law. And you wouldn't be working with arbitrary matters. Just a thought! Plus I hear that it is one of the few areas where jobs are good for lawyers right now.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Have you ever considered patent law? It requires knowledge and appreciation for both science and law. And you wouldn't be working with arbitrary matters. Just a thought! Plus I hear that it is one of the few areas where jobs are good for lawyers right now.

I have. Unfortunately from the research I have done, it seems as if that path is closed to me since I dont have the necessary degree. Those who go to law school and THEN get a science related degree after are usually looked at with suspicion. Plus those jobs hire while students are in their second year of school. After that second year your career path is set for the most part and there isnt much that can be done to change it.

It doesnt seem to be a viable option from the information I have found.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Hey guys thanks for the replies.

Just a question, what in your opinion is the biggest factor that makes people regret medical school. Or common ones.

Finishing $300,000 or more in debt that you can't begin to pay off for 3-6 years, long nights spent memorizing esoteric nonsense, cleaning up butt pus, starting out as the low guy on the totem pole, possibly a competitive atmosphere between med students, being bossed around by rude doctors with defective personalities, 3-6 years of residency after med school and carrying a pager. What's not to like? Still, about 90-95% of students who start medical school will end up graduating, so there must be something good about it. This isn't law school where half the class flunks out or quits halfway through.

Also is there any good way to see if you can handle the course material? I dont have a science background and I dont want to waste my time with a post bac if I am just not able to handle the material for some reason.

The material you'll be learning isn't horribly complicated, but it does take lots of work. For example, I could diagram out an organic chemistry reaction on a napkin and explain it to you in five minutes well enough that you would understand it even with no chemistry background. That's simple enough, but if you take the class you'll need to understand a hundred or so of those reactions, predict the results, and understand why the reactions work the way they do. If you want to read ahead a little you could buy some cheap old editions of the textbooks used and look through them to see the kind of material you'll be learning. MIT has a lot of free classes online, with tests, notes and videos of the lectures, just like the real thing. I don't know if they have the prereq classes there, but even if they don't its a great resource.

 

[TriagePreMed]

As a second career student, I can tell you that the road ahead is not an easy one. You have to be absolutely sure that this is what you want because the road is complicated and you may fail along the way.

Going to a post-baccalaureate program is not something to take on lightly as it is expensive, both because of expenses (tuition, living, etc.) and the time off from being in the job market. The possibility of failing at these classes is very realistic. I've seen enough people not make it. The next hurdle is the MCAT. Don't take it lightly. I did and paid dearly. I'm having to retake it.

When I first began, I didn't realize how true it is that you have to be absolutely sure you want this, but after some time in this, looking at friends having fun, getting married, buying homes and doing all sort of neat stuff while I'm barely making ends meet, my time is devoted to volunteering, tutoring, research, clubs and homework, it's not something I would have been able to do had I not been sure about this.

Best of luck.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Hey guys one more question. I know it has been asked before but usually in a different context.

Would taking the pre reqs at a community college bar me from getting into Med School? The school I really want to go to(Stony Brook for in state tuition) basically dodged the question when I asked.

I dont really care about getting into a top program, I just want to get in anywhere(MD program would be nice but I would go DO if it was the only option). I already have 35K of debt from undergrad and living expenses from law school. I dont want to drop another 30k on a post bacc before med school unless it is the only way I could get in.

This is my biggest fear, that I will quit law school and end up not being able to get into med school, with a ton of debt. Man I wish I could go back in time. FTR I am 23 and single, so I guess if there was ever a time to take a risk for something I feel is worth it, it would be now.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

The issue of community college credits has been discussed at length, so a search will yield lots of information. Basically if it's possible you should do your postbac at a 4-year college. Your state college will be fine. If that isn't at all possible for you, take the classes at a community college, but know that it will hurt your application at some schools.

What is your undergrad cumulative GPA? That will have a lot to do with your chances of getting accepted. If it's bad, you might need to do some additional work retaking classes to bring it up.

 

[Tommyguns89]

The key word in that answer is "some". That means there are schools out there that will not care, correct? That is what I find difficult to get an answer on even with searching. All the other threads establish is that there are some schools that definitely do care, not the existence of schools that dont care. I want to know if they exist.


My GPA isnt terrible, but it isnt good. It is a 3.6, it got killed by one bad semester. I understand that I have basically no margin for error and need to ace everything from here on out. I have to do all the science and math pre-reqs, so I assume I have to ace them all since my course of study wasnt science related.

Also how hard is it to get into a post-bacc program like Columbia? If I was going to do one I would probably aim for a top program like that.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I think I am going to do a post-bacc just to be safe, even if it cost more money.

Does anybody know how hard they are to get into, as a student with no science background?

 

[OCDEMS]

I was a non-traditional. It took me three years (while working full-time) to complete my post-back science requirements, many of which I took at a community college. I have two acceptances this cycle and I'm still in the process at several other schools. Granted, I live in a rural area where there is relatively low access to affordable undergraduate education, so access to a decent university wasn't possible.

One word of advice: Don't take SDN too seriously. It is an invaluable resource, so long as you don't get caught up in the stats discussion (rat race). Same thing goes for your pre-med counselor at your alma mater. They can be just as discouraging. Is medical school tough to get into? Yeah, absolutely. The journey has been a long one and it took a ton of dedication, but it is doable. The biggest thing is deciding to do it. You can't do it halfway. No matter where you do your post-bac science classes, you should do them somewhere where you'll be successful. This isn't just about the curriculum, but also about distance, cost, and other factors that result in success.

From what I've gathered over the years, a few things lead to likely admission:

1) A compelling story. Serve others and contribute to society. Good ECs have a lot to do with the type of person you are and thus the type of individual medical schools want to matriculate.

2) Stats don't need to be perfect, but something should stand out. It seems to be that you either need A) A high GPA or B) High MCAT or C) Both around the average of the school you're applying to. There are minimums to consider, but not everyone who gets into medical school has a 4.0 and a 40 MCAT.

3) Apply early and apply broadly. Research schools early, determine if you could see yourself as a student there, and then apply broadly to those schools that interest you. This isn't like many undergraduate institutions, or for that matter many other graduate programs, where you self-select your school with a fairly reliable predictor of "I'll get in." Many, many qualified applicants have to reapply to medical school every year. I have yet to see a great predictor for who will get in (or for that matter get an interview), other than being a straight stud (see 4.0, 40 MCAT, and major research/awesome EC). There are applicants getting denied to all sorts of schools with great stats, but also students getting accepted with less than ideal stats all of the time (and vice versa). Most of the applicants are some level of "qualified" because they've self-selected to be the most competitive and motivated individuals out there. It seems that schools have preferred student populations and attempt to fill it based on the limited amount of information they have to work on. You want to be one of the 80-200 students in each class, so you ideally want to have a resume that is compelling for one of those spots. I get the impression that ADCOMS realize that you can't have a school full of 22 year old 4.0/40 MCAT applicants because it would result in a non-diverse, insular student experience. There is value in having the non-traditional with three kids AND the 22 year old. Each will teach the other something and contribute to making each good physicians. Likewise, stats are not always reliable predictors of success.

4) There are exceptions to 1-3. No one here can tell you anything 100%. Over 42,000 people apply for roughly 19,000 spots every year. There are about 170 MD and DO schools. If you're going to do this, dedicate yourself to the goal. It's a rough ride but definitely doable.

5) A successful pre-med is a neurotic pre-med...to an extent. There is a reason this board is full of them. 😉 Always think about how your future decisions will play out come admissions. Don't anger your chemistry professor, because you may need that letter of recommendation. Ask around for who are the best professors, not who are the easiest. You want to do well on the MCAT, so take the prerequisite courses seriously. Expose yourself to the medical profession and make sure this is really what you want to do. Really, do it. I work in medicine now and there are definitely aspects to healthcare that can be off-putting. The worse thing you could do is find out you dislike it after four years of medical school and $200k in debt.

Lastly, imagine a place where someone took the top 20% of MD and DO applicants and allowed them all to have a voice...ok you're here. Take that in context. There are plenty of people who get into medical school and have never posted here. Not every applicant has a 3.9, 37 MCAT, and has saved ten babies while simultaneously conducting groundbreaking research. Even physicians are human. You'd swear that this was a forum of people who have climbed Everest without oxygen or who have been in space, but it's not. Yes, getting into medical school is a major accomplishment fraught with difficulty, but mere mortals can do it and do it all of the time.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

The key word in that answer is "some". That means there are schools out there that will not care, correct? That is what I find difficult to get an answer on even with searching. All the other threads establish is that there are some schools that definitely do care, not the existence of schools that dont care. I want to know if they exist.


My GPA isnt terrible, but it isnt good. It is a 3.6, it got killed by one bad semester. I understand that I have basically no margin for error and need to ace everything from here on out. I have to do all the science and math pre-reqs, so I assume I have to ace them all since my course of study wasnt science related.

Also how hard is it to get into a post-bacc program like Columbia? If I was going to do one I would probably aim for a top program like that.

With a 3.6 you should be all right. Like you said, ace everything and you'll be in great shape. Plus, if you do well in the classes you'll have most of your MCAT studying done in advance. Even if you average a 3.8 or so in your postbac you'll probably be all right, but I know that being able to point to perfect postbac grades helped my weak application out a lot. "Perfect 4.0 in a full schedule of science classes" sounds nice when you write it in application essays.

I don't think you will need to do a structured postbac program. Unless they have direct linkages that will give you automatic acceptance to a school you're interested in, they don't have much more value for the increased cost of tuition. They may have good premed advisors, but you'll find that the nontrad forum is a great source of advice for every step in the process. If premed advisors really knew what they were talking about, they would have gotten into medical school and they'd be called doctors. Taking the classes at a state 4-year college will be just as good and will save you some money.

People here have gotten into medical schools with a postbac of nothing but CC credits. I don't know which schools they went to, and it might take some legwork on your part to find them.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Thanks man. One more law school final in a few hours, and then I can wash my hands of this mistake.

BTW, do you think my law school grades will matter? And do you think my explanation for leaving law school in pursuit of medicine will be sufficient? The way I look at it, I went to law school for the right reason. Its just that I chose law over medicine for the wrong reasons.(same reasons I alluded to before, mainly fear as I already had a full tuition scholarship in hand for law school I was afraid of giving that up and then failing to get into med school anyway). In addition to the web you must navigate in medicine being a natural internal one vs the one in law being a man made one in an adversarial system. Also I didnt mention this before but I went to law school to be a prosecutor. One of the elements I liked about that role is the element of detective work(even if most of it is done by an actual detective lol), in a clinical medical setting there will probably be more opportunity for detective like work via diagnosing patients. Thats one of the things that I want to do, solve problems.

 

[OCDEMS]

Yes, I think law school grades will matter, but it will be up to you to make the most of whatever they are. As for why you left law school: I think an answer of "I didn't like it" would be sufficient. Obviously you should be prepared to elaborate, but I think ADCOM members are used to people whose academic and professional desires have changed throughout their career.

One more thing on the community college issue: I went to a community college in a state known for its well funded community college system, complete with linkages and equivalencies to the main state university system. I understand that the community college system in the U.S. is sort of variable, with some schools focused more on technical and vocational training and others as university preparatory schools/something in between. My school had a multimillion dollar science building that rivaled those of some small universities and most of my professors were PhDs. I also had also performed well in my undergraduate training at the university level, some of which was in a healthcare field, so there was a visible bridge to link the two. If you can afford it, I think the university route has less headaches, but I don't think you should ignore the cost difference. For me, it would have meant almost $10k more over the three years that I completed my post-bac work. This didn't include the driving that I would have had to do several days week. I already had debt from my Bachelor's and was working full-time, so this wasn't debt that I wanted to add before starting medical school. Oh, in the end I thought my classes at the CC were well taught well. We took the ACS (chemistry) finals just like our university counterparts.

 

[Esquire]

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[Tommyguns89]

1. Shadow. Lots. The practice of law is different than what you thought. You may make the same mistake if you haven't seen the day to day practice of medicine in various specialties.

2. There's a high barrier of entry. 2-3 years and tens of thousands for pre-reqs, MCAT, applications, interviews. You can be sunk by any of the hoops along the way. Formal post-bac is not necessary.

3. Law school grades are irrelevant if they aren't bad. As someone from Big Law, I think you should finish law school, take the bar, and practice for a while. At the very least, it provides interesting application/interview material. Most physicians have a lot of respect for lawyers because many of them have parents, kids, spouses, or siblings that are lawyers. Quitting a full-ride, law school because you "made a mistake" doesn't look good. It makes you look like someone with poorly thought out goals and a quitter.

4. Someone mentioned that getting in is not that hard. Take it with a grain of salt. Med school competitiveness varies widely from state to state. It can be ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard.

I have a full ride but I still have to pay for living expenses in a high COL area. Also I am at a TT so its not like I am going to get biglaw or any meaningful employment. I thought I would scramble for whatever legal job I could get until I could start my own practice. Some might see me as a quitter, but I didnt pursue law to impress anybody, I pursued it because I thought it was career that fit my strengths that I would enjoy. I dont see why I should drop another 10k a semester in living expenses if that opinion has changed.

 

[epikdoc]

Just keep in mind 1L sucks. Like totally, absolutely sucks. During my 1L all I wanted to do was get as far away from law as possible. You make it through. And yeah, the employment situation for lawyers is not that great, but the worst of it was 2008-2010 and things have started to pick up, so I wouldn't worry too much about the job market.

Full disclosure I am making the switch from law to med after about 8 years of practice, but that is because of personal reasons. I actually really enjoy my current law job, and its a really tough decision to leave.

My advice is the same as Esquire's, see it through and give it a couple years. Try your hand at medical related work. Worker's Comp should give you a pretty good idea if you enjoy medical issues. Also, medicare/medicaid work will give you an idea of the unpleasant side of medicine.

 

[occams_razor]

Hey guys one more question. I know it has been asked before but usually in a different context.

Would taking the pre reqs at a community college bar me from getting into Med School? The school I really want to go to(Stony Brook for in state tuition) basically dodged the question when I asked.

I dont really care about getting into a top program, I just want to get in anywhere(MD program would be nice but I would go DO if it was the only option). I already have 35K of debt from undergrad and living expenses from law school. I dont want to drop another 30k on a post bacc before med school unless it is the only way I could get in.

This is my biggest fear, that I will quit law school and end up not being able to get into med school, with a ton of debt. Man I wish I could go back in time. FTR I am 23 and single, so I guess if there was ever a time to take a risk for something I feel is worth it, it would be now.

stony brook really prefers that you not take community college coursework. some schools don't care, but stony brook is not one of them.