Note to All Pre-Veterinary Students

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VMCASSTAFF

VMCASSTAFF

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Hi All. Having been a member of SDN for a number of years, and watching the "peer-advising" that goes on here, I implore you to consider the following:
  1. Remember that because an individual was accepted to veterinary school does not automatically make them Pre-Vet or Pre-Health advisors or authorize them to provide advice. They can only provide their opinions and personal experience.
  2. Please take comments on SDN from current veterinary students with a grain of salt. Every applicant and their application is unique. What works / worked for one applicant does not mean it will work for you. I appreciate that they share their experiences and opinions, but again, that does not make them experts.
  3. Every year I am aware of applicants who were denied from veterinary school because of information they received from comments made by current veterinary students "giving advice" here on SDN.
  4. The application, the VMCAS business rules, veterinary school admissions processes and veterinary school requirements (both academic and non-academic) change every year. Prior-Applicants OFTEN provide outdated and often flat out wrong information regarding the current application cycle.
Please take these comments not as negative comments, I only request that you are an educated Pre-Veterinary student and highly qualified applicant. Your best resources are: AAVMC, VMCAS, and the Veterinary School Admissions Offices. Together, they are the ones that create the application, set the rules and requirements and ultimately, it is the schools who review and accept or deny your application.

AAVMC Website: AAVMC
VMCAS Website: VMCAS
VMCAS Customer Service (Help with the application): 617-612-2884 or [email protected]
Listing of Veterinary Schools (with contacts): VMCAS College Descriptor Pages

If none of the above help, or you currently do not have access to a Pre-Vet / Pre-Health advisor, you can contact me directly. My email is below.

Thank you,

Tony Wynne
Director, Admissions & Recruitment Affairs
Director, the Veterinary Medical College Application Service (VMCAS)
[email protected]
 
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VMCASSTAFF said:
Every year I am aware of applicants who were denied from veterinary school because of information they received from comments made by current veterinary students "giving advice" here on SDN.
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Could you give an example of this kind of advice? I’d like to make sure we aren’t routinely spreading disinformation.
 
Sure: Incorrect Pre-requisites and/or school requirements, Essays, eLOR advice, transcript requirements (study abroad/international/transfer credits).. to name a few.

Tony
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
Sure: Incorrect Pre-requisites and/or school requirements, Essays, eLOR advice, transcript requirements (study abroad/international/transfer credits).. to name a few.

Tony
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Tony,
You and I have even talked in person about this and quite frankly, much of what you say here is overstated. Most people encourage pre-vet students to call the institutions and ask them about their specific requirements.

While there may be some misinformation, this board needs feedback from current students and other applicants. The reason sdn is here is because a need wasn't being met by other organizations. Your advice is well-intentioned, but also hyperbolic. I highly doubt many students were denied admission solely due to advice from this board. Which, again, is usually to seek out information from the institution(s) you are applying to.
 
I can only supply information collected from denied applicants stating that information from SDN lead them astray resulting in denials. My intention was to encourage pre-veterinary students to check facts and to do their research on information from qualified resources prior to applying. I don't argue the value of SDN as a social network but It is not a reliable source of up-to-date information on the application or the process of applying.
 
Self reporting is almost never accurate and you took that information to mean that you had to come here and post this thread. So it's necessary to talk about why it might not be accurate.

If you'd like more people to use your service, I suggest you search vmcas threads from recent years. There have been many complaints, suggestions, etc posted throughout. Particularly after talking to vmcas representatives.

Again, theres a reason sdn exists. And someone telling you it's because of sdn that they didn't get in is not reliable. There are many points in which a pre-vet is told to ask the schools and instead takes an entirely different meaning from the response. Before making proclamations and threads such as these, I'd ask you to read a couple of the advice threads personally.
 
All I am requesting of our pre-veterinary community is that they reach out to us with questions about applying rather than talking to only each other. I don't think that's unreasonable.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
All I am requesting of our pre-veterinary community is that they reach out to us with questions about applying rather than talking to only each other. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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My point is that you're missing the fact that many people advise just that.

You're taking the word of failed applicants instead of reading the threads yourself. It's not uncommon to tell a pre-vet to contact the school and for them to come away with a completely different message.

And occasionally when directed to your resources, there's unavailability or misinformation there. Thus, I'm advising you to look at some threads yourself.
 
That's why I make myself available to any pre-veterinary student that would like to contact me with an issue, complaint, or unresolved matter. Complaining on a social media platform will not initiate any change or mitigation. I personally contact every applicant, every cycle, and encourage them to contact me directly if they are displeased or have any unresolved issues. Posting to threads does not properly notify anyone of an issue, it only creates a circle discussion without any outcome. I can't fix what I'm not being told about. I will not rely on "venting" posts on SDN as a means of resolving issues. There is a mechanism in place to report if something is broken or if customer service is not meeting expectations... and that mechanism is not a social media thread.
 
Once again:
Tony Wynne
Director of Admissions & Recruitment Affairs
Director the Veterinary Medical College Application Service (VMCAS)
[email protected]
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
That's why I make myself available to any pre-veterinary student that would like to contact me with an issue, complaint, or unresolved matter. Complaining on a social media platform will not initiate any change or mitigation. I personally contact every applicant, every cycle, and encourage them to contact me directly if they are displeased or have any unresolved issues. Posting to threads does not properly notify anyone of an issue, it only creates a circle discussion without any outcome. I can't fix what I'm not being told about. I will not rely on "venting" posts on SDN as a means of resolving issues. There is a mechanism in place to report if something is broken or if customer service is not meeting expectations... and that mechanism is not a social media thread.
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No, they vent here. They don't expect it to resolve issues, though they were told to tag the appropriate accounts if needed.

I'm encouraging you to gain firsthand knowledge instead of secondhand before posting threads like these. Yes, that means you may need to read a thread or two. But you'll quickly see the most common advice is to call the appropriate school, vmcas, or to go to the cheapest school for future mental health.
 
I actually think SDN helped me a LOT in finally getting accepted to vet school. I wish I had found this resource much sooner. I honestly doubt many people have been declined solely based on bad advice they received here. I think just about everyone emphasizes that schools look at the whole package, and none of us can ever say someone will definitely get in based on the information they give us. Similarly, I don't think it's fair to say someone didn't get in based on bad advice they received here, without looking at their whole package and speaking with the school about why that student didn't gain admissions (which I suspect is information they are not willing to give out.)
 
I've been reading SDN posts on VMCAS for five years and I agree with your comment that, "Self reporting is almost never accurate" which which is why SDN threads are not any resource for us. I speak, personally, with thousands of pre-vets a year which I would consider firsthand, and I stand by my recommendations in my post. If anyone would like to continue this conversation with me, please email me.
 
I quite enjoy that this alert - even though this has been ongoing "every year" - only comes up after several veterinarians argue with you in another thread.

This isn't an SDN concern. This is taking information from the horse's mouth (the school, VMCAS website, etc) vs. hearsay from other applicants. Part of life and ESPECIALLY medicine is judging the strength of evidence/information, and if people are looking to blame hearsay information for their rejection I'd posit and say that there were probably significant other problems with their applications.

I found SDN invaluable both before and after my application to vet school. It's a fantastic resource that brings together pre-vets, vet students and vets under one roof for counseling and support. There is no other place that I know of that provides the wealth of information and fun that SDN does, and that's why people hang around here for 10+ years and a veterinary career.
 
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I like how this post comes after multiple licensed veterinarians disagreed with you on applying to expensive schools to be "happy". Hmm, I wonder why someone from VMCAS who obtains money from pre-vets via them applying to as many schools as possible would want them to ignore our financial advice?? What's the matter, pre-vets getting smarter and application rates are decreasing?
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
I've been reading SDN posts on VMCAS for five years and I agree with your comment that, "Self reporting is almost never accurate" which which is why SDN threads are not any resource for us. I speak, personally, with thousands of pre-vets a year which I would consider firsthand, and I stand by my recommendations in my post. If anyone would like to continue this conversation with me, please email me.
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I also have clients tell me that "the last vet told them x, y, z" when I was the last vet they saw and I told them nothing close to what they repeated.

You are saying that speaking to pre-vets is "firsthand" and they tell you it was SDN... does the buck stop there? Or do you look further? Do you check GPA, GRE, letters, etc? Or is the student saying "it is SDN's fault" all the info you obtain? I'm going to hazard to guess it is the latter and I'm going to also guess that the vast majority of those students had other things way more of concern that is if you can even verify we provided the advice they claim, they followed it AND the school verified to you that is the *sole* reason the applicant was denied. I bet you actually couldn't find a single pre-vet that had happened to.

You decided to post this thread why exactly? I want the actual truth because I know the truth isn't what you are claiming here.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
I've been reading SDN posts on VMCAS for five years and I agree with your comment that, "Self reporting is almost never accurate" which which is why SDN threads are not any resource for us. I speak, personally, with thousands of pre-vets a year which I would consider firsthand, and I stand by my recommendations in my post. If anyone would like to continue this conversation with me, please email me.
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That IS self-reporting.

Dyachei is not saying that your resources are not valuable. She is saying that the advice given on SDN is much more directed towards your resources than you are implying. I can't count the number of times people have answered threads with "ask VMCAS" or "ask the schools".

I also beg to differ on SDN as a resource. It is a wonderful, WONDERFUL resource for so many things about all the stages of veterinary medicine as a career. There are actual people behind every single one of these usernames and their experiences are just as valid as any student you speak with.

Again, the technicalities of the application process are your domain - even if we can agree to disagree about the advice given here by people in the nitty gritty specifics. However, the fact you are discounting the validity of general application, career and financial advice (such as the recent discussion on financials in another thread) by both past and current students is a bit much.

DVMDream said:
I like how this post comes after multiple licensed veterinarians disagreed with you on applying to expensive schools to be "happy". Hmm, I wonder why someone from VMCAS who obtains money from pre-vets via them applying to as many schools as possible would want them to ignore our financial advice?? What's the matter, pre-vets getting smarter and application rates are decreasing?
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Yeah, that didn't escape my notice. Basically an attempt to undermine.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
Sure: Incorrect Pre-requisites and/or school requirements, Essays, eLOR advice, transcript requirements (study abroad/international/transfer credits).. to name a few.

Tony
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This is interesting to me because for most of the 5 years that I've been around SDN we actually haven't given specific advice like that. If someone asks about particular pre-reqs, school requirements, etc...we tell them to contact the schools they are applying to because that information is usually readily available and often changes over time.

If you reference the what are my chances thread, most of the advice is much more general ("you may want to get more experience in such and such areas, here's advice for improving your grades"). If people ask about more specific requirements we direct them to contact their schools. Objective information like that truly is the responsibility of each person to find themselves anyway.
 
WildZoo said:
This is interesting to me because for most of the 5 years that I've been around SDN we actually haven't given specific advice like that. If someone asks about particular pre-reqs, school requirements, etc...we tell them to contact the schools they are applying to because that information is usually readily available and often changes over time.

If you reference the what are my chances thread, most of the advice is much more general ("you may want to get more experience in such and such areas, here's advice for improving your grades"). If people ask about more specific requirements we direct them to contact their schools. Objective information like that truly is the responsibility of each person to find themselves anyway.
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Same here. I'd like to hear a specific, real-world example of how someone did something incorrect that someone on SDN told them to do (with thread quotes), and then how they got rejected specifically for that (i.e., their app review told them so) I'd wager those are very, very few and far between - if they even exist at all.
 
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DVMDream said:
I like how this post comes after multiple licensed veterinarians disagreed with you on applying to expensive schools to be "happy". Hmm, I wonder why someone from VMCAS who obtains money from pre-vets via them applying to as many schools as possible would want them to ignore our financial advice?? What's the matter, pre-vets getting smarter and application rates are decreasing?
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giphy.gif
 
Indeed. I would have serious doubts as to the validity of the claims. I have been a member here a good while now and this site is the reason I had an easy transition from my prior life into vet med. I would worry that those students you speak of likely never actually asked a specific question and just thought what they found answered their question. We constantly tell applicants to keep up with current policies. While I agree that prevets need to follow through with their schools, the use of quotes in your post regarding "peer advice" was a poor choice and shows your position of never having gone through this process, made it in, then ventured out into veterinary life after school.

I truly appreciate your presence here to help our members with their applications, but I strongly feel you may want to think a bit more when stating our advice is not a valuable resource.
 
EngrSC said:
Best to contact their admissions office so you know specifically what they mean.
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Skimble said:
Definitely contact the school and ask. I don't think any of us could definitively answer this question one way or another.
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TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo said:
Really depends on your school and their grading system. As said above, Heather is the best contact for specifics related to your school.
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SkiOtter said:
I would contact the schools you’re interested in (or at least your in state if you have one) and asking their opinion.
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WhtsThFrequency said:
I can't count the number of times people have answered threads with "ask VMCAS" or "ask the schools".
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See above quotes from my 2 second search. (sorry people for the random quoting out of context). There are literally pages and pages of examples of regulars on SDN suggesting people contact the schools.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
All I am requesting of our pre-veterinary community is that they reach out to us with questions about applying rather than talking to only each other. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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This is a very reasonable request. I wish your original post had been phrased this way.
 
genny said:
This is a very reasonable request. I wish your original post had been phrased this way.
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I think they are best to ask questions about the application system. However if they are advising financial suicide to applicants simply so they are "happier" for 4 years, I really don't think VMCAS should be addressing those questions. They process applications, that is it and they need to stick to advising on that and that alone. If they encourage people to apply to expensive schools because it might be a "good fit" they are a giant contributor to this professions massive debt and suicide problem and I really do not appreciate that.
 
I think the only truly bad advice I ever see on here is pre vets telling others that cost doesn’t matter when they might be happier somewhere else over their cheaper option. Which everyone is quick to try to explain how $160k vs $300k in principle is going to massively effect your life post Vet school.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
Remember that because an individual was accepted to veterinary school does not automatically make them Pre-Vet or Pre-Health advisors or authorize them to provide advice. They can only provide their opinions and personal experience.
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In addition to everything that has already been said, I want to add that I've heard of many pre-vets over the years getting misleading or downright bad advice from their pre-vet or pre-health advisors. These individuals have usually never been to or applied to veterinary school, and are often more familiar with the med school application process.

As has been pointed out, the regulars on here routinely encourage applicants to contact VMCAS or individual schools for specific policies, and often preface advice with "this is what worked for me" or "this is how it was when I applied, but things may have changed." And I will also say that although of course VMCAS is the best resource for specific questions about VMCAS, when I last applied in 2015 contacting VMCAS routinely meant waiting days for a response to your email, or calling and waiting on hold for 30 minutes. I sincerely hope that this has been improved in the past couple years, but with wait times like that it's not surprising that applicants often turn here to see if anyone knows the answer to their question first.
 
Teepster87 said:
I wonder why SDN is being targeted here. I don't see anything similar on the massive prevet Facebook group .
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THIS. I left that group because I couldn't stand it anymore! From people trashing schools, trashing each other, and giving out advice/answers that are blatantly incorrect...
VMCASSTAFF said:
Every year I am aware of applicants who were denied from veterinary school because of information they received from comments made by current veterinary students "giving advice" here on SDN.
  1. The application, the VMCAS business rules, veterinary school admissions processes and veterinary school requirements (both academic and non-academic) change every year. Prior-Applicants OFTEN provide outdated and often flat out wrong information regarding the current application cycle.
Click to expand...
Genuine question, but how are you getting into contact with these students supposedly blaming SDN for their rejections? Are students contacting you/VMCAS to talk about why they were rejected for some reason? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for a student to come back to you about that. I find it hard to believe that someone/several people who may have been this badly burned by SDN wouldn't come back on the forum and inform us all that we are to 'blame' for their rejection. As far as I know, not one single poster has blamed SDN for being rejected...and I keep up with the forums pretty well (especially since any post like that would have the thread replies go up exponentially...always a good indicator that you should read the thread :corny:).

I would also make the argument that if one is that incapable of verifying info at all(all of which can be fact-checked by going to the school's website, which we recommend 100% of the time), then perhaps they aren't in the right place for a medical education just yet. You have to be very independent, self driven, etc. If you are coming to a forum and looking to be spoon-fed answers instead of taking all of 5 minutes to search for them, you'd probably have some difficulty in veterinary school before you learn to function independently and learn to determine what is good vs. bad info.

Also, you mention resources pre-vets should turn to, but when I applied nearly every 'official' resource was outdated, not SDN users :laugh: Actually, for s's and g's, I just looked at the prereq chart on AAVMC and I can already tell you it's wrong for at least U of I. Speech is actually not required, so it sounds like whoever may this chart needs to double check themselves before you taut them as a 'best resource.' If someone chose their undergrad courses directly off that chart, they'd take an unnecessary course when there are other courses that meet the same requirement. If they go to the school website directly, they'd be able to see that.

I remember having to fact-check every single thing I read from VMCAS/AAVMC because you guys are so frequently outdated, misleading, and sometimes flat out wrong. Just saying.
 
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pinkpuppy9 said:
Also, you mention resources pre-vets should turn to, but when I applied nearly every 'official' resource was outdated, not SDN users :laugh: Actually, for s's and g's, I just looked at the prereq chart on AAVMC and I can already tell you it's wrong for at least U of I. Speech is actually not required, so it sounds like whoever may this chart needs to double check themselves before you taut them as a 'best resource.' If someone chose their undergrad courses directly off that chart, they'd take an unnecessary course when there are other courses that meet the same requirement. If they go to the school website directly, they'd be able to see that.

I remember having to fact-check every single thing I read from VMCAS/AAVMC because you guys are so frequently outdated, misleading, and sometimes flat out wrong. Just saying.
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Michigan State also has like 5 different courses for my undergrad that meet the cell bio requirement, only one of which is actual cell bio.
Update: they don’t require cell bio anymore and it’s just “upper level bio,” which there’s 7 of, but the 2017 matriculation cycle they did
 
Actually, can I get a refund for the VMSAR book my confused pre-vet self bought, thinking it would be helpful? SO much incorrect info. I flipped through it once and, having already done research myself, knew that a huge chunk of it was flat out wrong right off the bat. Never picked it up again, what a waste of my money.

A published book. You are on here taking digs at SDN when you guys couldn't even fact check your published book?! Maybe you've gotten better over the years, but like I said, you already have incorrect/misleading info about my school posted on your website. I have never recommended any pre-vet student to your website, you guys just aren't a trustworthy source at this time and have never been a trustworthy resource. Maybe you could make a point to overhaul the info you publish and make sure it's correct. If you can't do that, then you need to just simply provide links to the admissions/pre-req pages on each school's website, no more.

Also ETA stemming off my last post: In the event that someone does post outdated/incorrect info, there has always been someone else who has posted a correction fairly quickly. No one on SDN has ever claimed to be an expert on all things vet med/admission. We often/always something with the disclaimer of 'But that was when I applied, so double check for yourself' or 'I suggest you do this, but you should also call/email the school for their input because the buck stops with them.'

Whether you like it or not, SDN is valuable. It offers relatable advice from peers who have actually gone through VMCAS/vet school or are out in the real world practicing. Despite what you are implying, you/AAVMC are not the better resource for advice on the topics we frequently discuss here. You can't tell me squat about mental health in veterinary school, what it's like paying off the debt, etc. etc.
 
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There is so much ever-changing information that it's worth taking everything with a grain of salt, and double- and triple-checking everything with each school.

For what it is worth, I relied on every resource I could get my hands on, but I found this community to be especially supportive and encouraging throughout my application process (and afterward).
 
I didn’t use SDN for information really. Initially I used it to have unbiased people to review my PS, I used it to prepare myself that I probably wouldn’t get in last cycle (which I did). I used it to have a place to vent my VMCAS related issues to.

But then it becomes a community and a support system, and that’s more valuable than anything any other website/ program/ server has provided. In this day and age we’re simultaneously closer and further apart from each other, and we’re realizing the value of having pre- Veterinary students, vet students, and veterinarians all coming together to break down some of the pillars of isolation the profession built for us.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
I personally contact every applicant, every cycle, and encourage them to contact me directly if they are displeased or have any unresolved issues.
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Interesting. I never received personal contact from you in the 3 years I applied. Unless you consider the canned, automatic email that generates when you create a VMCAS account as "personally contacting every applicant".
 
DVMDream said:
Interesting. I never received personal contact from you in the 3 years I applied. Unless you consider the canned, automatic email that generates when you create a VMCAS account as "personally contacting every applicant".
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Lol this past cycle the ONLY email I got from him was saying the deadline was extended to the 29th because of hurricanes
 
All excellent feedback and plenty for me to work with the Admissions & Recruitment Committee & the vet schools on to better provide services that meet the needs of the pre-vet students and pre-vet / pre-health communities. I appreciate the comments. 🙂

Tony
 
I don't see why something like this wasn't posted on the APVMA page. That would be a far more reasonable use of a hyperbolic precautionary message like this. I can think of at least one person who regularly posts on there, and at least claims to be an adviser, who has posted things that are flat-out wrong.
 
supershorty said:
I don't see why something like this wasn't posted on the APVMA page. That would be a far more reasonable use of a hyperbolic precautionary message like this. I can think of at least one person who regularly posts on there, and at least claims to be an adviser, who has posted things that are flat-out wrong.
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She is the bane of our existence.
 
supershorty said:
I don't see why something like this wasn't posted on the APVMA page. That would be a far more reasonable use of a hyperbolic precautionary message like this. I can think of at least one person who regularly posts on there, and at least claims to be an adviser, who has posted things that are flat-out wrong.
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I think i know who this is, unless I've picked out someone else who just gets under my skin
 
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