Nova Southeastern or Florida Tech PsyD?

[Justanothergrad]

Florida tech has a better reputation.

Is... this a question?

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[qwerty729]

Yes, sorry I was about to edit. I'm torn between the two Psyd programs for clinical psych.. I've been hearing from the "Floridian psychology field" that FIT has a better reputation .. True or not true?

 

[G Costanza]

I’ve worked with FIT trainees and they seem to be very well prepared. I don’t know anything about Southeastern.

 

[qwerty729]

Thank you for the information.

 

[sylviat]

daughter is coming from Penn State - undergrad Psychology degree.
3.5 GPA has not taken GRE yet. Wants to do a Psy D program
money not an issue.
how difficult are these programs to get into?
Should she apply to many schools?
Apply to some Masters Programs as a back up plan?

 

[Justanothergrad]

daughter is coming from Penn State - undergrad Psychology degree.
3.5 GPA has not taken GRE yet. Wants to do a Psy D program
money not an issue.
how difficult are these programs to get into?
Should she apply to many schools?
Apply to some Masters Programs as a back up plan?

Bad training means worse job prospects. There are numerous threads on here about these programs and other PsyD programs. You are better to help support her for a year while she is volunteering in a lab and then applies to a funded programs with good training, if that is what makes her not competitive now. This is cheaper in the long run and better for career training. Programs that are easy to get into are easy to get into for a reason- no one wants to go.

You should encourage your daughter to do this research herself as well. I suspect she does not have a strong grasp of the difference between PsyD and PhD, nor does she likely understand the risks associated with poor training. Knowing how to apply and what it means is critical to ensuring that you (not someone you trust) knows the field you are trying to devote your professional life to.

 

[sylviat]

Thanks for the info. She is not interested in research or teaching. She wants to go into private practice. Assessments ADD/ADHD/Gifted/Kids on the Spectrum etc. Definitely does not want a funded PHD program. Does not want to work for a school doing research.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Thanks for the info. She is not interested in research or teaching. She wants to go into private practice. Assessments ADD/ADHD/Gifted/Kids on the Spectrum etc.

The desire to be a practitioner has nothing to do with a PsyD versus a PhD. Most (almost all) PhD (including my students) go on to be practitioners. The reason more PsyD don't go on to do research is because the training doesn't even open the door (read, they exclude or do a poor job training CRITICAL training components to psychology - which is why many of the programs are for profit institutions with poor educational outcomes and worse career trajectories). It is 100% a myth that people wanting to be practitioners get PsyD's and researchers get PhD

Good PsyD programs mirror PhD in terms of requirements for admission and experiences during training. This includes doing research. We're a science - being an informed and critical consumer of literature is important. Research is how we learn the skills to do that. You should encourage your daughter to come read the forum and ask questions. The university faculty (like myself) and training program directors here are happy to help people be successful.

 

[sylviat]

Considering FIT and George Washington, Argosy Tampa, wondering how difficult it is to Get in. Penn State teachers want her to stay there, but she hates the cold

 

[Justanothergrad]

Considering FIT and George Washington, Argosy Tampa, wondering how difficult it is to Get in. Penn State teachers want her to stay there, but she hates the cold

How hard is it to get into a program that is for profit and doesn't care what the training is like? Not hard.

How hard is it to get a job, an internship, licensed, hired, or respect of those in the profession? Substantially harder.

Note. I am giving you my opinion as a faculty member and as someone who is a specialist in psychological assessment. I train practitioners in assessment. I work with practitioners who conduct assessments all day. This is the area I know very well.

 

[sylviat]

so, you are suggesting PHD track V Psy D?
That was the advice of Penn State as well. But they are biased.
I have a few friends that went the PSY D route, and said that is the better track.
She really wants to concentrate on patient disorders, kids, only instead of hard core research Any suggestions? there is soon much info out there about PSY D, Phd, or Masters in Clinical Psychology. Hard to know which tack is best. Maybe just apply to all and go wherever you get accepted? Back up is Penn State anyway, they embrace most of their kids, they have more grants and research than they have students to administer.

 

[MCParent]

money not an issue.

How.... how rich are you that somewhere around $150,000 is “not an issue”?

I mean, if you’re actually that wealthy it doesn’t matter where she goes. Pay an internship site to make an extra spot if she doesn’t match and if the family is that wealthy it doesn’t matter if her patient load is weak when she gets out.

 

[Temperance]

so, you are suggesting PHD track V Psy D?
That was the advice of Penn State as well. But they are biased.
I have a few friends that went the PSY D route, and said that is the better track.
She really wants to concentrate on patient disorders, kids, only instead of hard core research Any suggestions? there is soon much info out there about PSY D, Phd, or Masters in Clinical Psychology. Hard to know which tack is best. Maybe just apply to all and go wherever you get accepted? Back up is Penn State anyway, they embrace most of their kids, they have more grants and research than they have students to administer.

There is no rush to go into graduate school. Clinical psychology programs will still be there next year if she doesn't get admitted to a program that best fits her career goals, and it's far better to wait and go to a program that is a good fit than it is to rush into anyone who would accept her and then it turns out that it's a poor match for what she wants. If she posts here herself, then she can get more targeted advice about what sorts of programs would be a good fit for her.

 

[deleted343839]

Thanks for the info. She is not interested in research or teaching. She wants to go into private practice. Assessments ADD/ADHD/Gifted/Kids on the Spectrum etc. Definitely does not want a funded PHD program. Does not want to work for a school doing research.

The majority of clinical psychology PhD graduates are not faculty researchers. This is a myth, albeit one that for-profit institutions are all too happy for you to believe.

I would encourage your daughter to think less about the PhD/PsyD distinction itself and ask her faculty mentors where she can get top-notch training in clinical child psychology. Guidance from people in the know is essential. If someone said that they were applying to Argosy Tampa but had Penn State in mind as a "backup" I would need a minute to catch my breath.

 

[PsychPhDone]

so, you are suggesting PHD track V Psy D?
That was the advice of Penn State as well. But they are biased.
I have a few friends that went the PSY D route, and said that is the better track.
She really wants to concentrate on patient disorders, kids, only instead of hard core research Any suggestions? there is soon much info out there about PSY D, Phd, or Masters in Clinical Psychology. Hard to know which tack is best. Maybe just apply to all and go wherever you get accepted? Back up is Penn State anyway, they embrace most of their kids, they have more grants and research than they have students to administer.

I don't see how Penn State is a backup? They are a very competitive, research-focused PhD.

 

[psych.meout]

so, you are suggesting PHD track V Psy D?
That was the advice of Penn State as well. But they are biased.
I have a few friends that went the PSY D route, and said that is the better track.
She really wants to concentrate on patient disorders, kids, only instead of hard core research Any suggestions? there is soon much info out there about PSY D, Phd, or Masters in Clinical Psychology. Hard to know which tack is best. Maybe just apply to all and go wherever you get accepted? Back up is Penn State anyway, they embrace most of their kids, they have more grants and research than they have students to administer.

Are you trolling us?

http://psych.la.psu.edu/graduate/program-areas/clinical-adult-and-child/CopyofAPPLICANTdata2018.pdf

Penn State never gets less than 300 applications and admits less than 2.7% of applicants. They aren't lacking in qualified applicants, it's that they don't have the resources to admit more than that.

More importantly, they aren't going to admit your daughter just because she attended undergrad there. Sure, she might have connections there, but you need more than that to get admitted to an extremely competitive program like Penn State's. More importantly, their program is PCSAS accreditted, which means that they are very heavy in research. It wouldn't be a very good idea for your daughter to attend their program if she has no interest in research.

 

[sylviat]

Penn State University - State college accepted 25 students last year in all 5 Psych areas, and will have more this year. but they also have many satellite campuses with other research projects as well. PSU takes care of their own in some area/or campus if interested. Their Psych dept. is the best at placing their students. They groom them as undergrads to work on research and in the labs very early on. That being said, She does not like research at all, the projects she has been working on are entirely uninteresting (to Her). My broader question that has gotten lost is… Which PSy D programs are good? Which should she stay away from? She wants to open her own private practice - that's the goal. Also, cost is not an issue. If the end goal is private practice does it really matter which PSY d school you attend? That is why I am here asking advice. Does it really matter?
In the end - (GOAL) she wants to help kids with terminal/chronic illness, Cancer, Autism, Cystic Fibrosis, (her sister has this) manage their stress for a better more fulfilling life.
There is so much info out there about phd v psy d it's all very confusing. There are also many therapists in private practice with only Masters degrees as well - Is that an option?
I am a children's author/teacher/college advisor so retrieving every spec of advice and info is just my nature to help narrow down the choices.

 

[WisNeuro]

?
In the end - (GOAL) she wants to help kids with terminal/chronic illness, Cancer, Autism, Cystic Fibrosis, (her sister has this) manage their stress for a better more fulfilling life.
There is so much info out there about phd v psy d it's all very confusing. There are also many therapists in private practice with only Masters degrees as well - Is that an option?

The vast majority of these jobs are housed in hospitals and AMCs. She'd have a very hard time building a PP in this area as it necessitates multidisciplinary approaches work in close concert.

Masters degrees are an option for pp, and there are many SWs who do this type of work in hospitals as well.

 

[MCParent]

Which PSy D programs are good? Which should she stay away from?

To get an approximation of quality, go here:
https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/downloads/APPIC Match Rates 2011-16 by Univ.pdf
Two columns are of interest: % matched (fourth column) and % of those matched who matched to an accredit program (second to last column). Good programs have high values (over 75%, ideally as close to 100% as possible) in the first column, and 100% or very near in the second.

e.g., If cost is not an issue:
Palo Alto is 94% / 95%, which is great. (PA is a fine program with great faculty, but mind-blowingly expensive and in an expensive area)
Adler has 87% / 54%, which is not good.
Carlos Albizu has 36% / 15%, which is abysmal.

In the end - (GOAL) she wants to help kids with terminal/chronic illness, Cancer, Autism, Cystic Fibrosis, (her sister has this) manage their stress for a better more fulfilling life.
There is so much info out there about phd v psy d it's all very confusing. There are also many therapists in private practice with only Masters degrees as well - Is that an option?

Masters would be more limited in what she can do later, but it depends on what she wants to do.

 

[MCParent]

There is so much info out there about phd v psy d it's all very confusing. There are also many therapists in private practice with only Masters degrees as well - Is that an option?

Shoot me a message on here and I'll give you some book recommendations for her as well.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Penn State University - State college accepted 25 students last year in all 5 Psych areas, and will have more this year. but they also have many satellite campuses with other research projects as well. PSU takes care of their own in some area/or campus if interested. Their Psych dept. is the best at placing their students. They groom them as undergrads to work on research and in the labs very early on. That being said, She does not like research at all, the projects she has been working on are entirely uninteresting (to Her). My broader question that has gotten lost is… Which PSy D programs are good? Which should she stay away from? She wants to open her own private practice - that's the goal. Also, cost is not an issue. If the end goal is private practice does it really matter which PSY d school you attend? That is why I am here asking advice. Does it really matter?
In the end - (GOAL) she wants to help kids with terminal/chronic illness, Cancer, Autism, Cystic Fibrosis, (her sister has this) manage their stress for a better more fulfilling life.
There is so much info out there about phd v psy d it's all very confusing. There are also many therapists in private practice with only Masters degrees as well - Is that an option?
I am a children's author/teacher/college advisor so retrieving every spec of advice and info is just my nature to help narrow down the choices.

What other programs besides clinical do/do not do are not important as they will not be weighed in comparison to her. Here is penn state's admission information:

There were 449 applicants for 5 spots
Avg GPA 3.7
Avg GRE-Verbal 162
Avg GRE-Quant 159


http://psych.la.psu.edu/graduate/program-areas/clinical-adult-and-child/CopyofAPPLICANTdata2018.pdf

 

[PsyDr]

How.... how rich are you that somewhere around $150,000 is “not an issue”?

I mean, if you’re actually that wealthy it doesn’t matter where she goes. Pay an internship site to make an extra spot if she doesn’t match and if the family is that wealthy it doesn’t matter if her patient load is weak when she gets out.

The saying is that you think wealthy is someone who earns 2-3 times what you do, when they actually earn 1000 times more than you.

There are approximately 11 million millionaires and 450 billionaires in the USA. In the case of the former, even the lower end can get $150k/yr in interest. In the case of the latter, even the lower end can earn $3MM in interest a year. And many of those people still work.

 

[cara susanna]

Thanks for the info. She is not interested in research or teaching. She wants to go into private practice. Assessments ADD/ADHD/Gifted/Kids on the Spectrum etc. Definitely does not want a funded PHD program. Does not want to work for a school doing research.

I just want to chime in that, from my experience, testing overlaps a LOT with research and statistical knowledge. Testing norms, interpretive guidelines, etc, are all derived from research. Not to mention things like understanding confidence intervals, validity, homogeneity, specificity/sensitivity, etc. IMO, a solid background in research is crucial to being good at assessment.

 

[psych.meout]

The saying is that you think wealthy is someone who earns 2-3 times what you do, when they actually earn 1000 times more than you.

There are approximately 11 million millionaires and 450 billionaires in the USA. In the case of the former, even the lower end can get $150k/yr in interest. In the case of the latter, even the lower end can earn $3MM in interest a year. And many of those people still work.

But people on the lower end of the spectrum stay rich by being conservative and making wise investments, not by blowing their money. Paying $150,000 for a poor quality program when there exist literally hundreds of programs that are completely funded and provide good training is not a wise investment, especially when the poor training of the former would likely limit your career earnings.

 

[PsyDr]

But people on the lower end of the spectrum stay rich by being conservative and making wise investments, not by blowing their money. Paying $150,000 for a poor quality program when there exist literally hundreds of programs that are completely funded and provide good training is not a wise investment, especially when the poor training of the former would likely limit your career earnings.

I am not saying it is a good investment. McParent seemed to be surprised that someone could easily spend $150k. My point is that there are many many people for whom $150k is not a problem. I offered this point of view because I believe that psychologists drastically undersell their salary requirements. Having psychologist make the same as truck drivers is bad for the field in general.

 

[WisNeuro]

I am not saying it is a good investment. McParent seemed to be surprised that someone could easily spend $150k. My point is that there are many many people for whom $150k is not a problem. I offered this point of view because I believe that psychologists drastically undersell their salary requirements. Having psychologist make the same as truck drivers is bad for the field in general.

Truck drivers at least have demand going for them. There is a huge shortage for them. We, on the other hand, have a huge surplus, with diploma mills churning out people, and some jobs drying up in certain contexts. Part of that is a problem of our own doing, rather than underselling our salary requirements. From a business perspective, why hire a psychologist at 6 figures to do therapy, when the hospital can pay a masters level person less than half that to do the same thing? Or, why play hardball with a psychologist demanding 6 figures for a therapy job when you have a stack of 20+ applications for the position, of which, somebody will surely accept a salary of around 70k. Luckily, some of us are in good positions to demand 6 figure+ salaries because of our training and specialties, but for people just doing general psychotherapy, it's not a great market.

 

[MCParent]

I am not saying it is a good investment. McParent seemed to be surprised that someone could easily spend $150k. My point is that there are many many people for whom $150k is not a problem. I offered this point of view because I believe that psychologists drastically undersell their salary requirements. Having psychologist make the same as truck drivers is bad for the field in general.

I'm not surprised by it. It's just a completely different question if you don't really need your job to live.

 

[PsyDr]

Truck drivers at least have demand going for them. There is a huge shortage for them. We, on the other hand, have a huge surplus, with diploma mills churning out people, and some jobs drying up in certain contexts. Part of that is a problem of our own doing, rather than underselling our salary requirements. From a business perspective, why hire a psychologist at 6 figures to do therapy, when the hospital can pay a masters level person less than half that to do the same thing? Or, why play hardball with a psychologist demanding 6 figures for a therapy job when you have a stack of 20+ applications for the position, of which, somebody will surely accept a salary of around 70k. Luckily, some of us are in good positions to demand 6 figure+ salaries because of our training and specialties, but for people just doing general psychotherapy, it's not a great market.

I think this is the standard viewpoint. I see some problems with it, and my view is a bit different.

If psychologists' productivity matched family medicine's productivity, and employers could pay psychologists $80k, the employer would make more than $90k per psychologist, less benefits.

 

[psych.meout]

I think this is the standard viewpoint. I see some problems with it, and my view is a bit different.

If psychologists' productivity matched family medicine's productivity, and employers could pay psychologists $80k, the employer would make more than $90k per psychologist, less benefits.

But isn't that dependent on the billing codes used?

I mean, psychologists could make bank if they could use E&M codes. That's how employers make so much money by employing non-physicians who can use those codes, e.g., PAs, NPs.

 

[PsyDr]

But isn't that dependent on the billing codes used?

I mean, psychologists could make bank if they could use E&M codes. That's how employers make so much money by employing non-physicians who can use those codes, e.g., PAs, NPs.

I did. CMS fee schedule puts the reimbursement for 90834 at around 88% of 99214. AAFP puts the median patient load per day at around 9.

 

[psychrat]

If the end goal is private practice does it really matter which PSY d school you attend? That is why I am here asking advice. Does it really matter?

Put it this way, I personally as well as many of my colleagues would never consider going to a therapist who attended a for-profit program. (Argosy, Alliant and the like). Maybe that is elitist of us, but it is true. However, there are probably many people out there who do not look to see where their providers went to school. I am sure there are good psychologists who graduate from professional schools, but the training (or lack thereof) concerns me.

Also why are you posting for your daughter? I could never imagine having my mom so involved in this process. Grad school is not like undergrad in that way.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Grad school is not like undergrad in that way.

This It's sad because undergrad wasn't ever supposed to be like this either, right?. I can't imagine my parent(s) ever emailing and/or calling a college professor during my less eloquent days of youth, or ever being that enmeshed to begin with.

 

[WisNeuro]

This It's sad because undergrad wasn't ever supposed to be like this either, right?. I can't imagine my parent(s) ever emailing and/or calling a college professor during my less eloquent days of youth, or ever being that enmeshed to begin with.

I only had parents call/email me a handful of times when I was teaching. I always simply said that if there was an academic issue that the student was the one that had to come to me to address it and that I would not answer any questions regarding the student to someone who was neither the student nor a university representative. Just mumble something about FERPA and hang up on them

 

[docjohng]

If someone is gauging who they see as a therapist based upon what grad school program the therapist went to 5, 10, 20 years ago, that's pretty unfortunate. There's very little research to suggest you'll have better outcomes going to a therapist from grad program A vs B. In fact, there's very little research to suggest that going to see a doctoral level therapist will result in a better outcome than a master's level therapist.

Having said all that, I went to Nova and came out just fine. I found its large class size a benefit, as it meant I had a lot of peer support that is often lacking in smaller programs. Given the grind of grad school, having that peer support can be the difference between a positive grad school experience and one that is excruciating. Nova has only improved its program since I went there in the early 1990s, but it's also gotten more expensive. I'm not sure a Psy.D. is worth it any longer, no matter what program you attend.

 

[erg923]

If someone is gauging who they see as a therapist based upon what grad school program the therapist went to 5, 10, 20 years ago, that's pretty unfortunate. There's very little research to suggest you'll have better outcomes going to a therapist from grad program A vs B. In fact, there's very little research to suggest that going to see a doctoral level therapist will result in a better outcome than a master's level therapist.

Having said all that, I went to Nova and came out just fine. I found its large class size a benefit, as it meant I had a lot of peer support that is often lacking in smaller programs. Given the grind of grad school, having that peer support can be the difference between a positive grad school experience and one that is excruciating. Nova has only improved its program since I went there in the early 1990s, but it's also gotten more expensive. I'm not sure a Psy.D. is worth it any longer, no matter what program you attend.

The benefit of having a "crowd" around you does not substitute for the intimate mentoring/attention that is often largely responsible for developing an apt psychological scientist and practitioner. I think a large crowd increased changes of aberrant admissions of less than quality product and decreases attention to quality control and oversight.

You can be a "therapist" a million different ways and in a million different programs. If you want to be "Psychologist" (Ph.D/Psy.D), the bar has to be high, and higher than what I know Nova is/does at this moment (perhaps not 10-20 years ago). Clinical Psychology is in a bad spot in the larger MH system as it is, partly because we can often suck at what we are suppose to bringing to the MH service table, and encouraging students to enroll in programs that are unjustifiable expensive (e.g., trap you in debt for the rest of your life unless you rely on da man) and of questionable overall quality is NOT wise.

 

[ay1314]

I'm late to the party but why isn't the daughter asking these questions? Does she not know how innernet forums work? Someone please admit her so we can dissect the inevitable ensuing trainwreck. Kudos to other more mature people in this thread for keeping it above the belt unlike me. I must be tired and hungry.

 

[WisNeuro]

Nova has only improved its program since I went there in the early 1990s, but it's also gotten more expensive.

considering who they are in bed with now (Amen clinics), I'm not sure I would agree with you there, at least for the neuro students. Those applications are now a hard pass from me. It's hard to beat the pseudoscience out of trainees at the intern and postdoc levels.

 

[WisNeuro]

Wow. Didn’t know that. They should lose accreditation for that. FWIW, my experience with fit students was also poor. Neuropsych minus the neuro.

Yeah, we got , I think, 6 apps from them last year, and all of the students had at least posters with Daniel Amen, and talked up their research with the clinics in their research essays. I immediately vetoed all of those applications. Made the ranking meeting a bit shorter.

 

[cara susanna]

For those of us non-neuro folks, what are Amen clinics and why is that a red flag?

 

[WisNeuro]

For those of us non-neuro folks, what are Amen clinics and why is that a red flag?

Amen clinics claim to be able to treat things like mTBI, "PCS", ADHD, and a variety of other things using very expensive evals that include SPECT, qEEG, etc. And the treatments are also usually very expensive and are "proprietary." In essence, they cherry pick research findings out of context, show patients a lot of pretty brain pictures and then ask them to open their wallets. Amen is snakeoil at its most profitable. It's a good business model if you don't have a shred of integrity or an iota of compassion for your patients.

 

[WisNeuro]

He runs infomercials. I’ve come across reports from Amen clinics. Terrible. Snake oil.

He has a clinic in the Seattle area, we'd get those reports all of the time. Terrible. Also, patients and family wondering why things weren't better after a few years and 20k+ in "treatments."