Nova vs. Wake Forest

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doctubee2222

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I am in a bit of a confusion. I have been admitted to Nova Southeastern University (osteopathic) and I am still waiting to hear back from the Wake Forest Post Bac. Program. I am undecided of what I would do if I were admitted to the Wake Forest program. The way it works it that you do a whole year of additional work (starting with a summer of organic chemistry, then 3 advanced biology classes in the fall, and 2 more advanced biology classes in the spring plus human gross anatomy) and then you are automatically admitted into the medical school next year. Does anybody have an opinion of whether they think it is worth doing another year of work to attend Wake Forest or should I take my Nova acceptance and go to school in Ft. Lauderdale, FL?
 
Don't DO schools require the MCAT just like medical schools do? So, haven't you already taken OChem?

Regardless, yes, I would do the extra year. 4 years from now when you don't have an MD and have another degree instead, you're going to be kicking yourself for not putting in 1 extra year.

If you get the opportunity to allow you automatic admission into a medical school for next year, then go for it NOW. A year will be over sooner than you think. 😉

{{I don't know the answer to this, but don't some DO's have to do an extra year of internship to practice in some states? That may not be true...I thought I heard it somewhere...someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's true, then that would be an extra year that you'd have to add to your training.}}


Originally posted by doctubee2222
I am in a bit of a confusion. I have been admitted to Nova Southeastern University (osteopathic) and I am still waiting to hear back from the Wake Forest Post Bac. Program. I am undecided of what I would do if I were admitted to the Wake Forest program. The way it works it that you do a whole year of additional work (starting with a summer of organic chemistry, then 3 advanced biology classes in the fall, and 2 more advanced biology classes in the spring plus human gross anatomy) and then you are automatically admitted into the medical school next year. Does anybody have an opinion of whether they think it is worth doing another year of work to attend Wake Forest or should I take my Nova acceptance and go to school in Ft. Lauderdale, FL?
 
Yes, 5 states require that a DO do an AOA approved osteopathic internship in order to be licensed. The 5 states are: Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Oklahoma, West Virginia.
In most programs, you can jump into PGY-2 (in internal medicine, pediatrics, FP, etc.) - however, it all depends on the program and whether or not they will give credit for that internship or not.

For example, the osteopathic internship at UCONN is approved by the AOA and ACGME/ABIM. Therefore, that osteopathic internship will go towards the internal medicine requirements for ABIM.

The AOA just made it easier to get PGY-1 at an allopathic residency count as an osteopathic internship - but there are certain strings attached.

To the OP - I suggest you go with your gut feeling. Don't let anonymous strangers on this board tell you what to do.
If, deep down inside, you don't want a DO, then do Wake-Forrest MD postbac. That extra year is not worth having to spend the rest of your life going "what if I did this instead of that"

However, if you truly don't care about the degree, then evaluate the strength of each school - the location, student body, facilities (NOVA IS GREAT), faculty, residency placements, pass rates, etc. Do you want to learn OMM? Can you handle any potential biased in the future?

All these are questions that only you can answer. We on this board can only guide you with advice, experience, etc.

Congrats on your acceptance. I know you will have a tough choice to make. When you do make that choice, make sure you are comfortable with it, and don't look back with regrets. You should live life looking forward, not backwards.

Cheers.
 
it's worth waiting a year to go to Wake Forest, it's an excellent clinical training program. it depends though on how sure you are of getting into the program, because you don't want to pass up the opportunity to go to med school for this program and then not get it...tough choice, good luck
 
I'd go to Nova! It had the best facilities of all the places I visited, and everyone really loved going to school there! Plus, if you take a look at their match list, it's pretty impressive - off the top of my head I remember seeing johns hopkins at least 2ce on their list from last year. Don't do d.o. if you don't want to, if you're dead set on m.d., wait the extra year - a year goes by quickly. Tough decision though - i know a hefty deposit is due next week.
 
have you seen Wake and toured the place and seen the area? If not, you really really should. I really liked Wake, but Winston-Salem is a bit small for me. (There were other factors too, like all my family and my research being in Minnesota, but if it weren't for that, I'd defitely be on my way to Wake.)
 
In response to all of the things that have been raised: Firstly, they have us RE-take Organic Chemistry at the Wake Forest Post Bac. Program. I am not exactly sure why they feel this is necessary. About whether I would rather have an M.D. or a D.O. is fairly unimportant to me. As far as Wake's campus and Winston Salem goes, I am very familiar with the area and have actually worked at the medical center before, so that is not really an issue. My whole concern is this, I just want to be able to have the oppurtunity to go into the speciality of my choice (of course pending my board scores, etc.). Will going to Wake Forest really provide me with more oppurtunities in the future to go into certain specialities (i.e. non-primary care) or will Nova and a D.O. degree let me get into a non-primary care residency without having to be at the top of the class or have board scores in the upper upper percentiles? So is there really a huge difference in where I would match for residency depending on the program I go with?
 
I'd grab a copy of Iserson's "Getting into a Residency," as it's full of great information and does talk about DO stuff in particular.

Let me quote a bit here (p. 351-353 of the Fifth edition); "..." means that I have cut stuff out, and a line break indicates paragraph breaks:


"As an Osteopathic physician, you have one of two different problems in getting a residency position, depending upon how you intend to approach your training: a limited number of Osteopathic residency positions, and the intransigence and constantly shifting rules of some Osteopathic licensing bodies.

"If you want to do specialty training in an Osteopathic residency, your main problem will be that there are relatively few slots form which to choose. The increase in Osteopathic medical students now far outpaces the increase in students at M.D. medical schools. Between 1970 and 2000, the number of D.O.s doubled, the number of Osteopathic medical schools incresaed from nine to nineteen, and the number of graduates nearly tripled. There are now more than 2,000 D.O. graduates annually. The number of Osteopathic residency slots, however, barely increaed. Those programs that do exist cannot accommodate the increasing percentage of young Osteopaths who want to pursue specialties other than primary care.

While the nearly 1,950 funded Osteopathic internships would be barely sufficient to meet the needs of Osteopathic graduates (if they all entered D.O. internships), the approximately 1,035 funded entry-level residency positions are far too few to accommodate the current number of Osteopathic graduates. This means that many Osteopathic graduates must look to the M.D. side of the profession for their training. The AOA's Osteopathic Matching Program and the military's matching program are the only ways to get an AOA-approved internship.

...

The AOA, in its infinite wisdom, has made it very hard for you to pursue training at ACGME-approved programs.

...

One way of circumventing the AOA is to train in an ACGME-approved program that has also been approved by the AOA. For internships, the AOA will approve (or has already approved) most Transitional (or equivalent) programs in the military. Technically, they ware also willing to give approval for other PGY-1 year ACGME-approved training. Don't count on this, however, since their track record is dismal.

...

More Osteopathic graduates are entering ACGME-approved training programs each year....However, you must recognize that, for whatever reason, ACGME-approved training in some specialties is almost completely off-limits to Osteopaths. Chief among these are Diagnostic Radiology, General Surgery, and various sugical specialties, such as Colon and Rectal Surgery, Neurosurgery, Otolaryngology, Thoracic Surgery, and Urology. Even in the military, it is nearly impossible for an Osteopathic medical school graduate to obtain a position in, and be allowed to finish, a Surgical residency program. This is controlled by the "powers" granting accreditation to residency program. It may change in the future, but don't hold your breath.

If you apply to ACGME-approved program, make certain that you explain, in detail, exactly what your COMLEX scores mean (unless you took the USMLE-a smart move), what yor curriculum consists of, and what the grading scale on your transcript signifies. Remember that these may be significantly different from the scores, curricula, and granding scales seen in applications from M.D. students.

Also, be careful about your Dean's letter. While most Deans of Osteopathic medical schools send out respectable lettes which are comparable to those sent out by M.D. Deans, some send out almost cursory statements. One wonders if these are sent only to ACGME-approved programs, in an attempt to "keep you in the fold."

...

Common Questions

...

How much discrimination against D.O.s is there among M.D. residency directors?

To deny that many M.D. residency programs discriminate against D.O.s would be foolish. Many residency directors do not understand that Osteopathic training parallels that in M.D. schools. This discrimination, however, varies greatly by the area of the country and the specialty. Where many D.O.s practice and Osteopathic medical schools have been established, there is minimal discrimination - and what there is has been rapidly diminishing. Where there are few D.O.s, ignorance abounds. As to specialties, General Surgery and its subspecialties remain the major area that continues to reject virtually all D.O. residency applicants.

 
Adcadet, how old is the book that you got those quotes from. Because some of them seem to be a bit dated in opinion.
 
5th edition came out in 2000 or 2001.
 
I just got back from Wake Forest yesterday & I loved it. Could you PM me doctubee2222?

Originally posted by doctubee2222
In response to all of the things that have been raised: Firstly, they have us RE-take Organic Chemistry at the Wake Forest Post Bac. Program. I am not exactly sure why they feel this is necessary. About whether I would rather have an M.D. or a D.O. is fairly unimportant to me. As far as Wake's campus and Winston Salem goes, I am very familiar with the area and have actually worked at the medical center before, so that is not really an issue. My whole concern is this, I just want to be able to have the oppurtunity to go into the speciality of my choice (of course pending my board scores, etc.). Will going to Wake Forest really provide me with more oppurtunities in the future to go into certain specialities (i.e. non-primary care) or will Nova and a D.O. degree let me get into a non-primary care residency without having to be at the top of the class or have board scores in the upper upper percentiles? So is there really a huge difference in where I would match for residency depending on the program I go with?
 
Originally posted by Sharky
I'd say go to Nova. You'd end up being a physician either way and you'd be less in debt since you would gain a year.

I'd go to Wake over Nova if guaranteed an acceptance at Wake. It's only a year, but at least you can get an M.D. degree instead of the D.O. degree. Alot of D.O. doctors are looked down upon here in Florida (at least where I live). But, if you don't mind the potential bias down the road and like the D.O. philosophy go to Nova.
 
Adcadet,

Your book IS outdated. When you quote that certain specialties are "completely off-limits" to DOs - that is entirely false. General Surgery and other specialties are now (although slowly) increasing their DO acceptances....I believe there are stats in the JAOA September 02 issue...very interesting and well detailed.

To "sharky" - you really need to go with your gut feeling on this. Wish I could be of more help...

Good luck!

care
 
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