Now I remember why I don't like med students...

[SurferBoyMD]

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Ok, the title is a bit misleading, since I'm a med student. Maybe it should really be: Now I remember why I don't like cocky egotistical know-it-alls

Today we had a small group case study, where apparently we were graded based on participation. Possibly because we were graded on participation, people began to show their true colors. When a question would be raised by the Dr. people just began shouting out answers and what not. I was just thinking to myself, "wow, chill out everyone, he just asked if everyone was here..." Not only were these students answering questions, but asking irrelevant-what's-the-point-just-for-the-sake-of-being-heard questions. This went on throughout the whole period, where by the time it came to the last question, I was sitting quietly on the side wondering, wow, if only I had spent that extra 20 minutes last night on Google looking up these answers, I could have joined in on the fun. I also had the thought of just shouting out some gibberish amongst the other gibberish that was being thrown out...

I'm usually humble when it comes to expressing my opinions of others, but for some reason today just made me realize that for the rest of my career I'm going to have to deal with these type of people, as well as the brown nosers out there. (FYI, after the case study, a student went up to the Dr. presenting the case and thanked him and told him how much he enjoyed it...)

How to deal with it????

 

[IceMan007]

Ok, the title is a bit misleading, since I'm a med student. Maybe it should really be: Now I remember why I don't like cocky egotistical know-it-alls

Today we had a small group case study, where apparently we were graded based on participation. Possibly because we were graded on participation, people began to show their true colors. When a question would be raised by the Dr. people just began shouting out answers and what not. I was just thinking to myself, "wow, chill out everyone, he just asked if everyone was here..." Not only were these students answering questions, but asking irrelevant-what's-the-point-just-for-the-sake-of-being-heard questions. This went on throughout the whole period, where by the time it came to the last question, I was sitting quietly on the side wondering, wow, if only I had spent that extra 20 minutes last night on Google looking up these answers, I could have joined in on the fun. I also had the thought of just shouting out some gibberish amongst the other gibberish that was being thrown out...

I'm usually humble when it comes to expressing my opinions of others, but for some reason today just made me realize that for the rest of my career I'm going to have to deal with these type of people, as well as the brown nosers out there. (FYI, after the case study, a student went up to the Dr. presenting the case and thanked him and told him how much he enjoyed it...)

How to deal with it????

I usually find that a back hand to the face works quite well, but I'm in dental school. We have the same brown nosers here too.

 

[45408]

I've been fairly lucky with our small groups. Most of the time, a lot of people stay quiet for pretty much the whole session. I'm fairly active, but I want to get out of there as soon as we can, so I really don't understand why anyone would ever ask additional questions that aren't even relevant.

 

[IceMan007]

I've been fairly lucky with our small groups. so I really don't understand why anyone would ever ask additional questions that aren't even relevant.

Because that additional question makes them stand out way above their peers and could be the one that gets them that derm or ent residency, didn't you know?

 

[LadyWolverine]

We often have the opposite problem in small group (probably because it begins at 8am, every morning, and sometimes many people haven't prepared adequately or read the background materials - including myself). Attendance is mandatory, but we are not, to my knowledge, graded on participation. However, I often find myself offering up answers to the facilitator's questions, because NOBODY is talking. I'd rather look like a brown-nosing know-it-all if it means that the ball gets rolling, we learn what we need to learn, and we get out of small group 20 minutes earlier. Otherwise, we all just sit around while the crickets chirp.

 

[hyperorchidism]

Well if you don't want to participate then don't go. Jeez.

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

I'm just curious about one thing. If someone was just really into the material, would their enthusiasm be a bad thing? I think in your example these are people who normally don't talk much, but then piped up for a grade. If that's true, its a little lame, but you may be misreading some of them.

All I'm sayin is, I've been getting a vibe from some classmates that they think I'm doing that same thing, but I'm just genuinely really digging what I'm doing right now. I've been out of medicine for a couple years on research (which I really REALLY hated), just starting 3rd year (which I really REALLY dig). It seems like the other people on the rotation with me are freshly jaded post-Step1-stress-disorder victims who feel obligated to share their misery with everyone, or ostracize those who show interest.

BTW, maybe if you had spent the 20 mins reading about the material before lecure like everyone else, you would've enjoyed it as much as everyone else apparently did?

HamOn

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

All I can say is take notes, especially if you have any say in who you all you get grouped with 3rd/4th year. Nothing worse than thinking somebody is cool, pairing up with them for a block, then finding out they're a ginormous prick.

 

[Sartre79]

Or how about the person who speaks up all the time, yet never really makes a point or contributes to the conversation. We had medical ethics just this morning, and one of the members of my group just makes me want to scream when they talk. We are in the same groups for the ENTIRE year too. Guess I'm going to have to practice that meditative breathing 🙄

 

[Jwax]

(FYI, after the case study, a student went up to the Dr. presenting the case and thanked him and told him how much he enjoyed it...)

How to deal with it????

I wouldn't consider that brown-nosing if he meant it. We had our first small group session last week in a two-part thing. The first day sucked b/c none of us knew anything, but the next peroid was really quite interesting because we got to learn something and our clinician did a really good job teaching it to us. I sent him an email later telling him I really enjoyed it and thought he was a great preceptor. Some of the other small groups aren't as lucky and really just sit there and listen to crickets churp. Our group is also not filled with "look at me! I'm smart!" types of people. We all had our assignment and took turns presenting our bits of knowledge. A few of us asked questions, but I imagine it was because we were actually interested (the case was about a stroke patient, which is pretty interesting for some of us).

Of course, maybe I'm just a brown-noser and don't realize it. I just like to compliment people if I think it is deserving, whether they are in a position of power or not.

Anyways... how to deal with the kinds of kids your dealing with? Eh... probably just worry about yourself and laugh at them behind their backs.

 

[45408]

Well if you don't want to participate then don't go. Jeez.

They're usually mandatory. All of ours are.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

This is why i hate any form of PBL, because it forces you into a room with these people for hours on end. Your pre-clinical grades are pretty irrelevant so don't feel like you're forced to participate. Save your energy for third year.

 

[Ubadub]

I had a similar session a week ago (graded on participation too), and I was very curious about a disorder because my girlfriend might have it. I wanted to know if one of the listed side effects was a common complication, and if it he knew the mechanism explaining. I felt like there was a touch of like, don't be a gunner by some people I don't know well in the group. But it's like, clearly I don't need to introduce the question by explaining why it's legitimate to me (i.e. I'm wondering if my girlfriend will get this). So I think your critique may be legit to an extent, but chill with being so judgemental, it's immature to care so much and be upset by gunnerish behavior. As in my case, there's sometimes another explanation. Secondly, so what? Clearly you're exaggerating (but it's funny) about how bad it was when you say all he asked was if everyone was here. You're surrounded by ambitious people who are nerds at heart, but don't be like some goth in the corner who says "what's wrong with these people." They're mostly good people, and work their ass off to...ah...help people. There are much bigger things to get upset about, and you'll find whatever field you go into, the people will be more like you. Maybe you'd be good in surgery, there's very little ass kissing and supposedly a whole lot of macho behavior.

 

[baylormed]

This is why i hate any form of PBL, because it forces you into a room with these people for hours on end. Your pre-clinical grades are pretty irrelevant so don't feel like you're forced to participate. Save your energy for third year.

+1

I love traditional curriculum, no attendance required.

 

[CigarTragic]

Because that additional question makes them stand out way above their peers and could be the one that gets them that derm or ent residency, didn't you know?

Well, duh.

 

[deleted29780]

boooriiiiiiiiiiing😴

 

[SurferBoyMD]

I had a similar session a week ago (graded on participation too), and I was very curious about a disorder because my girlfriend might have it. I wanted to know if one of the listed side effects was a common complication, and if it he knew the mechanism explaining. I felt like there was a touch of like, don't be a gunner by some people I don't know well in the group. But it's like, clearly I don't need to introduce the question by explaining why it's legitimate to me (i.e. I'm wondering if my girlfriend will get this). So I think your critique may be legit to an extent, but chill with being so judgemental, it's immature to care so much and be upset by gunnerish behavior. As in my case, there's sometimes another explanation. Secondly, so what? Clearly you're exaggerating (but it's funny) about how bad it was when you say all he asked was if everyone was here. You're surrounded by ambitious people who are nerds at heart, but don't be like some goth in the corner who says "what's wrong with these people." They're mostly good people, and work their ass off to...ah...help people. There are much bigger things to get upset about, and you'll find whatever field you go into, the people will be more like you. Maybe you'd be good in surgery, there's very little ass kissing and supposedly a whole lot of macho behavior.

Whoa, hey, I feel a bit of a bad vibe here...I was just stating my opinion. no need to call me immature, judgmental, and a goth...

But anyways, I might have exaggerated on the amount of people that were in my group doing this. Yes, good for those students that are really interested in learning and being into the material (I myself was into the material), however, there are just a few of those students that have that "gunnerish" attitude and come off smug and act like their farts dont stink 😳. By no means am I saying that people's curiosities should stop them from asking questions, if they are relevant to the material we are covering. But I could care less if you asked a question that had no pertinence to the material.

As for brown nosing, I agree with one of the previous posts, that complimenting on a lecturer's presentation when you think it was a good presentation. But my example was just one of the times this student went up to a guest speaker to thank him to lecture. (On several other occasions this student thanked many of the guest speakers that talked at our school, and a few times asked to treat some professors out for lunch, oh, and bought all the deans of the school a Mercedes j/k on the last one) But seriously, come on!!!

Anyways, I usually try to avoid working with these students, but when its a crap shoot of who you're grouped with, it's just a bit annoying. That's just my opinion. 🙄

 

[Abcdefghijkl]

I know for SURE that people think that i'm a "gunner" or whatnot in groups like that.

But I'll tell you my motivation....a prof asks a question, I look around the room....everyone is averting their eyes and 30 seconds or so pass so I say something...even if i'm not 100% sure of the answer, i'll give it a shot...because I HATE sitting in classrooms and would really really like to have a 2 hour small group take 2 hours or less (which they wouldn't if after every question people sit around staring at the wall for a min or two).

I ALWAYS wait to see if anyone else will answer and if they don't, I will...I know that people are self conscious speaking out in groups (esp when they think they're being evaluated and even more especially when they've finished 4 years of undergrad being in classes of 400+ students where they got used to not having to answer questions).

I'm not trying to show off or anything, I just get bored and don't want to sit there anymore. However, I don't really care if people think that I"m a gunner or whatnot...hopefully if people judge me it will be for who I am and if they do misjudge, it's not really my loss.

 

[santa_claus]

How about a person who talks non-stop during small group, usually about himself or on unrelated topic? (think bipolar patient in the manic stage). He also has this shrill voice and penetrating laugh, and is completely oblivious to "looks" cast his way. We usually get out of the session later because as soon as we shut him up and get to discussing the material he chimes in again. Aaargh!

 

[soonereng]

Of course, maybe I'm just a brown-noser and don't realize it.

That's always a possibility... 😉

 

[Jwax]

That's always a possibility... 😉

You're just saying that because you know I have a crush one of our professors 😛. I'd imagine that would be the ultimate form of brown nosing.

 

[sprinkibrio]

So, here's what I've heard over and over from people who know:

Doctors aren't as stupid as everyone thinks! If these people are truly brown-nosing/exaggerating their interest AND inconsiderate of others, your group leader will not be fooled. Again, these people aren't stupid! You obviously see their fake enthusiasm, how can someone with years on you, experience with small groups, and experience with patients lying to them not see this too? Honesty will ALWAYS win out in the end. Our job is to be genuine, personable, and interested in learning and the material at hand.

In the mean-time there are ways to shut them up to get a word in. Constantly be thinking of a retort to what the people in your group are saying. If you agree with them, say something to agree with them, but more eloquently. Follow the group leader's leading statements. Group leaders can tell the difference between preforming well in class and giving a sincere thank you for their time at the end and saying things just to say them and faking
enthusiasm.

 

[sprinkibrio]

I know for SURE that people think that i'm a "gunner" or whatnot in groups like that.

But I'll tell you my motivation....a prof asks a question, I look around the room....everyone is averting their eyes and 30 seconds or so pass so I say something...even if i'm not 100% sure of the answer, i'll give it a shot...because I HATE sitting in classrooms and would really really like to have a 2 hour small group take 2 hours or less (which they wouldn't if after every question people sit around staring at the wall for a min or two).

I ALWAYS wait to see if anyone else will answer and if they don't, I will...I know that people are self conscious speaking out in groups (esp when they think they're being evaluated and even more especially when they've finished 4 years of undergrad being in classes of 400+ students where they got used to not having to answer questions).

I'm not trying to show off or anything, I just get bored and don't want to sit there anymore. However, I don't really care if people think that I"m a gunner or whatnot...hopefully if people judge me it will be for who I am and if they do misjudge, it's not really my loss.

As a liberal arts major, I can say the key to that is to get them to talk yourself. Talk to them before class then mention, "well it's like you were saying before class, Jeannie, blah blah blah." Also, set an example. Show no shame in speaking first and with confidence, and they will be likely to think it's expected of everyone. You get them talking and you will rule the world.

 

[Sartre79]

So, here's what I've heard over and over from people who know:

Doctors aren't as stupid as everyone thinks! If these people are truly brown-nosing/exaggerating their interest AND inconsiderate of others, your group leader will not be fooled. Again, these people aren't stupid! You obviously see their fake enthusiasm, how can someone with years on you, experience with small groups, and experience with patients lying to them not see this too? Honesty will ALWAYS win out in the end. Our job is to be genuine, personable, and interested in learning and the material at hand.

In the mean-time there are ways to shut them up to get a word in. Constantly be thinking of a retort to what the people in your group are saying. If you agree with them, say something to agree with them, but more eloquently. Follow the group leader's leading statements. Group leaders can tell the difference between preforming well in class and giving a sincere thank you for their time at the end and saying things just to say them and faking
enthusiasm.

Anyone see the irony of this advice? It sounds like advice on "outgunning" a gunner. Human nature is a very odd and fickle thing. After getting degrees in Philosophy and Psychology (which in no way makes me any kind of an expert) the only conclusion I have is that we are viruses with shoes (thanks Bill Hicks, RIP). But, then again I'm a cynic. 😉

 

[jocg27]

I had a similar session a week ago (graded on participation too), and I was very curious about a disorder because my girlfriend might have it. I wanted to know if one of the listed side effects was a common complication, and if it he knew the mechanism explaining. I felt like there was a touch of like, don't be a gunner by some people I don't know well in the group. But it's like, clearly I don't need to introduce the question by explaining why it's legitimate to me (i.e. I'm wondering if my girlfriend will get this). So I think your critique may be legit to an extent, but chill with being so judgemental, it's immature to care so much and be upset by gunnerish behavior. As in my case, there's sometimes another explanation. Secondly, so what? Clearly you're exaggerating (but it's funny) about how bad it was when you say all he asked was if everyone was here. You're surrounded by ambitious people who are nerds at heart, but don't be like some goth in the corner who says "what's wrong with these people." They're mostly good people, and work their ass off to...ah...help people. There are much bigger things to get upset about, and you'll find whatever field you go into, the people will be more like you. Maybe you'd be good in surgery, there's very little ass kissing and supposedly a whole lot of macho behavior.

uhhh.....what?

there is plenty of macho behavior...but no ass kissing is VERY false.

Expecting people to kiss their ass is part of their machismo.

 

[sprinkibrio]

Anyone see the irony of this advice? It sounds like advice on "outgunning" a gunner. Human nature is a very odd and fickle thing. After getting degrees in Philosophy and Psychology (which in no way makes me any kind of an expert) the only conclusion I have is that we are viruses with shoes (thanks Bill Hicks, RIP). But, then again I'm a cynic. 😉

Haha, yes that's kind of what it is. But I'd rather be a pleasant gunner than an annoying gunner you'd like to shoot in the face yourself.