Now that the job market is collapsing, can we have some real discussion on the best residency programs?

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I mean, knock on all the complaining you want, but it's the reason you probably won't have a job in two years, especially in FL at least. I've seen FL dumping a bunch of pgy3 contracts this week. If HCA didn't flood the area there would be a lot less issue, even with covid.
You don’t need to remind me. I was more making a remark about how every thread, no matter the original topic, returns to the EM apocalypse.

I know Florida is F’d. It’s like the most depressing thing in my life right now, and I’m an intern in the ICU. Both my wife and I can’t imagine ever leaving the state, but the forefathers of EM decide to sell out my decade of hard work and education to Rick Scott and his HCA goons.

Maybe I’ll move to Indiana and buy one of those lamps that simulates sunshine indoors.

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You don’t need to remind me. I was more making a remark about how every thread, no matter the original topic, returns to the EM apocalypse.

I know Florida is F’d. It’s like the most depressing thing in my life right now, and I’m an intern in the ICU. Both my wife and I can’t imagine ever leaving the state, but the forefathers of EM decide to sell out my decade of hard work and education to Rick Scott and his HCA goons.

Maybe I’ll move to Indiana and buy one of those lamps that simulates sunshine indoors.
Hows Alabama?
 
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What is driving the explosion of EM residency programs beyond HCA? Does your leadership have any desire to preserve the training and job prospects of graduates? Is there any substantive discussion of this going on at national meetings or among EM program directors?

I just checked data for my own specialty. When I matched 7 years ago to ENT, there were 295 offered spots in match. In 2020 there were 350 spots (18% increase), while EM increased from 1772 spots to 2665 spots (50% increase) in same time period.
 
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What is driving the explosion of EM residency programs beyond HCA? Does your leadership have any desire to preserve the training and job prospects of graduates? Is there any substantive discussion of this going on at national meetings or among EM program directors?

I just checked data for my own specialty. When I matched 7 years ago to ENT, there were 295 offered spots in match. In 2020 there were 350 spots (18% increase), while EM increased from 1772 spots to 2665 spots (50% increase) in same time period.
Do you want to pay an NP/PA $75-$125/ hour plus benefits who bills 85% or do you want your hospital to pay you to have a resident who can bill 100% under you? Simple economics. EM residencies make money, they don't cost money. It is just a matter of whether the EM group gets the money or the hospital, but either way the attendings will bill the same (if not more with residents doing more procedures) with less staff to pay.
 
There may also be another component: for the longest time we have been claiming that only an ABEM-eligible/certified physician can staff any ER anywhere. This meant that EM residencies had to increase to fulfill this objective.
 
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Got some friends still there. Problem is, it's pretty much CMG territory. A lot of Envision, American Physician Partners, and a few ApolloMD sites.
I feel like that statement is virtually ubiquitous in EM now, except for a few bastions in the Midwest and Appalachia.
 
Honest question. What sort of reasonable career path would someone take in EM in this day in age? I legitimately love doing medicine and thinking about medicine. EM more than any other field. Crit is a close second.

I know this could change, but I’d like it not to.

Lately I’ve been thinking EM —> 1 year working somewhere super rural to polish out skills/independence —> CCM fellowship —> academic EM.

Won’t make bank, but can have a nice, stable, reasonably compensated employment.
 
To give yet another example of the differences in clinical training between residency programs:

I'm currently working at 2 different academic shops in NYC including one wealthy private hospital and one poor county hospital.

Had shifts with senior residents in the high acuity pods at both shops recently and the first resident had never even seen a pericardiocentesis while the second resident had performed 2 pericardiocentesis along with his previous 2 pericardiocentesis by the end of our last shift.
 
To give yet another example of the differences in clinical training between residency programs:

I'm currently working at 2 different academic shops in NYC including one wealthy private hospital and one poor county hospital.

Had shifts with senior residents in the high acuity pods at both shops recently and the first resident had never even seen a pericardiocentesis while the second resident had performed 2 pericardiocentesis along with his previous 2 pericardiocentesis by the end of our last shift.
Let's not use significant outliers when trying to compare differences.
 
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Honest question. What sort of reasonable career path would someone take in EM in this day in age? I legitimately love doing medicine and thinking about medicine. EM more than any other field. Crit is a close second.

I know this could change, but I’d like it not to.

Lately I’ve been thinking EM —> 1 year working somewhere super rural to polish out skills/independence —> CCM fellowship —> academic EM.

Won’t make bank, but can have a nice, stable, reasonably compensated employment.

Rural EM will not advantageously provide skill polishing. I'd say overall polishing, proceduralism, autonomy and independence can be attained anywhere. The busier shops will provide you with more opportunities to grow. If you're fresh out, I think it's relatively always advantageous to pick a busy community shop with double or triple coverage, preferably staffed by other ABEM docs. It's useful to bounce cases off the veterans and you can undergo a tremendous amount of growth in a shop like that within 1-2 years. You learn a great deal in dealing with all your consultants, also. Rural medicine is another animal altogether. It's good experience but it's more about functioning independently without backup and without as many specialists. Creative emergency medicine, stabilization and shipment...smooth transfers, etc.. It's lonelier. It's also less stress (most of the time, but not always). I'd work in a busy community ED or level 2 gig for 2-3 years outside of residency to figure out whether you even want to do dedicated CCM. Academics generally always pays less. My advice to newish grads is to maximize your earning potential for at least the first half of your career, or at least for 10 years. Then you've banked enough money and gained a lot of great experience that will serve you well in an academic setting.

See if you like bread and butter EM first. All sorts of things tickled my interest when I graduated but I wouldn't even consider additional training at this point. I'm too far down the rabbit hole and don't want to sacrifice the carrots that it would take to do something else. I don't consider that a bad place to be and you might not either after a few years out. I'd say at least 75% of the "EM burn out" sentiment can be solved by changing job environments and/or decreasing hours. Simple as that.
 
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To give yet another example of the differences in clinical training between residency programs:

I'm currently working at 2 different academic shops in NYC including one wealthy private hospital and one poor county hospital.

Had shifts with senior residents in the high acuity pods at both shops recently and the first resident had never even seen a pericardiocentesis while the second resident had performed 2 pericardiocentesis along with his previous 2 pericardiocentesis by the end of our last shift.
Are you saying you did 2 pericariocenteses in one shift?
 
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Rural EM will not advantageously provide skill polishing. I'd say overall polishing, proceduralism, autonomy and independence can be attained anywhere. The busier shops will provide you with more opportunities to grow. If you're fresh out, I think it's relatively always advantageous to pick a busy community shop with double or triple coverage, preferably staffed by other ABEM docs. It's useful to bounce cases off the veterans and you can undergo a tremendous amount of growth in a shop like that within 1-2 years. You learn a great deal in dealing with all your consultants, also. Rural medicine is another animal altogether. It's good experience but it's more about functioning independently without backup and without as many specialists. Creative emergency medicine, stabilization and shipment...smooth transfers, etc.. It's lonelier. It's also less stress (most of the time, but not always). I'd work in a busy community ED or level 2 gig for 2-3 years outside of residency to figure out whether you even want to do dedicated CCM. Academics generally always pays less. My advice to newish grads is to maximize your earning potential for at least the first half of your career, or at least for 10 years. Then you've banked enough money and gained a lot of great experience that will serve you well in an academic setting.

See if you like bread and butter EM first. All sorts of things tickled my interest when I graduated but I wouldn't even consider additional training at this point. I'm too far down the rabbit hole and don't want to sacrifice the carrots that it would take to do something else. I don't consider that a bad place to be and you might not either after a few years out. I'd say at least 75% of the "EM burn out" sentiment can be solved by changing job environments and/or decreasing hours. Simple as that.
Yea ideally I’d do exactly what you say. But these days those jobs just aren’t available to new grads. It’s a wasteland out there.
 
Yea ideally I’d do exactly what you say. But these days those jobs just aren’t available to new grads. It’s a wasteland out there.

You have to be willing to look outside your comfort zone. My hospital in the Deep South has almost an entire class of NE grads that transplanted down here for jobs. There are quite a few available in my state. I'm looking at a job listing right now that's at a tertiary care hospital that I'm very familiar with and know pays decent $$$. However, it's definitely not in an area that's on people's top 10 list of places to live. You gotta be willing to live anywhere. Gone are the days where you pick your location and the jobs come to you.

Call up one of the major CMG recruiters and just tell them what type of environment you are looking to find and they can search their entire network of contracts and find you something. Tell them you want to maximize pay and don't care where you live. Call TH, Schumacher, ApolloMD. I'd be shocked if one of them didn't have a decent gig somewhere. Worst case scenario, all three of those guys would hire you as a firefighter/locums and you could live wherever you wanted.

If you guys are doing all those things and still coming up short handed, then yes..there's cause for panic.
 
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To give yet another example of the differences in clinical training between residency programs:

I'm currently working at 2 different academic shops in NYC including one wealthy private hospital and one poor county hospital.

Had shifts with senior residents in the high acuity pods at both shops recently and the first resident had never even seen a pericardiocentesis while the second resident had performed 2 pericardiocentesis along with his previous 2 pericardiocentesis by the end of our last shift.

County residency programs: you get to shove needles/tubes somewhere every shift
 
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County residency programs: you get to shove needles/tubes somewhere every shift
This is just straight up false. I did 6 em rotations, county, level 1s, etc and that's a significant exaggeration.
 
You have to be willing to look outside your comfort zone. My hospital in the Deep South has almost an entire class of NE grads that transplanted down here for jobs. There are quite a few available in my state. I'm looking at a job listing right now that's at a tertiary care hospital that I'm very familiar with and know pays decent $$$. However, it's definitely not in an area that's on people's top 10 list of places to live. You gotta be willing to live anywhere. Gone are the days where you pick your location and the jobs come to you.

Call up one of the major CMG recruiters and just tell them what type of environment you are looking to find and they can search their entire network of contracts and find you something. Tell them you want to maximize pay and don't care where you live. Call TH, Schumacher, ApolloMD. I'd be shocked if one of them didn't have a decent gig somewhere. Worst case scenario, all three of those guys would hire you as a firefighter/locums and you could live wherever you wanted.

If you guys are doing all those things and still coming up short handed, then yes..there's cause for panic.
An entire class of NE grads transplanting to the deep south isn't a red flag for our specialty?
 
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Two pericardiocentesis in one shift either is an extreme outlier or people are getting needles stuck in their chest with far too little evidence that they would benefit from it.
Like when someone boasts how good at cric's they are. Not a procedure you want to get good at.
 
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Why is this issue specific to EM when HCA also has tons for anesthesia, IM, and gen surg spots?
 
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Why is this issue specific to EM when HCA also has tons for anesthesia, IM, and gen surg spots?

Fair point and I only have a guess. Unlike those other fields, EM is more or less 100% confined to the hospital and doing EM-related things. By comparison, Anesthesia can go work in an ambulatory surgical center (+/- ownership), specialize in fields such as cardiac, pain, or peds and get out of the general anesthesiologist market. Thus their residency expansion numbers aren't as bad as EM where we really have very few outlets. Same goes for IM and General Surgery with subspecialty and private practice options.
 
Doing multiple pericardiocentesis in one day is definitely not a regular occurrence but the fact that it can happen at some residency programs while others can go years without doing a single pericariocentesis just goes to show the massive differences between residency programs.

Its a dirty little secret amongst program directors but the exact same thing can be said for multiple other critical procedures such as chest tubes with some programs doing multiple chest tubes in one day compared to other programs that can go years without doing multiple chest tubes.

Contrary to popular SDN opinion there are very few hospitals that provide high quality training in emergency medicine.
 
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Doing multiple pericardiocentesis in one day is definitely not a regular occurrence but the fact that it can happen at some residency programs while others can go years without doing a single pericariocentesis just goes to show the massive differences between residency programs.

Its a dirty little secret amongst program directors but the exact same thing can be said for multiple other critical procedures such as chest tubes with some programs doing multiple chest tubes in one day compared to other programs that can go years without doing multiple chest tubes.

Contrary to popular SDN opinion there are very few hospitals that provide high quality training in emergency medicine.
I went to an old, well-known program and never did a pericardiocentesis, a thoracentesis, put in a transvenous pacer, or a lateral canthotomy. Does that mean that my program doesn't provide high-quality training?
 
You have to be willing to look outside your comfort zone. My hospital in the Deep South has almost an entire class of NE grads that transplanted down here for jobs. There are quite a few available in my state. I'm looking at a job listing right now that's at a tertiary care hospital that I'm very familiar with and know pays decent $$$. However, it's definitely not in an area that's on people's top 10 list of places to live. You gotta be willing to live anywhere. Gone are the days where you pick your location and the jobs come to you.

Call up one of the major CMG recruiters and just tell them what type of environment you are looking to find and they can search their entire network of contracts and find you something. Tell them you want to maximize pay and don't care where you live. Call TH, Schumacher, ApolloMD. I'd be shocked if one of them didn't have a decent gig somewhere. Worst case scenario, all three of those guys would hire you as a firefighter/locums and you could live wherever you wanted.

If you guys are doing all those things and still coming up short handed, then yes..there's cause for panic.

This is good to know. And actually reassuring because I’d rather live in Monroe LA than Chicago or NYC.

Thanks for turning down the crispy level.
 
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I went to an old, well-known program and never did a pericardiocentesis, a thoracentesis, put in a transvenous pacer, or a lateral canthotomy. Does that mean that my program doesn't provide high-quality training?
I don't necessarily agree with @alpinism vis a vis the comment that there are "very few hospitals that provide high quality training in emergency medicine," however, I do feel it odd that you did literally none of those things as a resident.
 
I don't necessarily agree with @alpinism vis a vis the comment that there are "very few hospitals that provide high quality training in emergency medicine," however, I do feel it odd that you did literally none of those things as a resident.

I did two thoracotomies, but folks that needed a pericardiocentesis typically went to the OR for a window or...their chest got cracked in the ED if they were coding.

Thoracentesis...yeah, I can't explain that one. Plenty of paras, but never a thora. I don't know if any of my colleagues floated a pacer. Those folks usually went straight to the cath lab to get a pacemaker put in. I don't think any of my classmates put in a TV pacer.
 
Let's not use significant outliers when trying to compare differences.
Yeah, I've been practicing EM in referral centers for 15 years and have been involved in ONE pericardiocentesis. They just don't come around that often.
 
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Yeah, I've been practicing EM in referral centers for 15 years and have been involved in ONE pericardiocentesis. They just don't come around that often.
Even the giant effusions I’ve found have tended to be relatively stable. So even if there is some tamponade physiology they are not crashing and they don’t need it drained that second.
 
I did two thoracotomies, but folks that needed a pericardiocentesis typically went to the OR for a window or...their chest got cracked in the ED if they were coding.

Thoracentesis...yeah, I can't explain that one. Plenty of paras, but never a thora. I don't know if any of my colleagues floated a pacer. Those folks usually went straight to the cath lab to get a pacemaker put in. I don't think any of my classmates put in a TV pacer.

Are people doing thoracenteses frequently in the ED nowadays? From what I've seen, the effusion is either bad enough that it needs some sort of chest tube (pigtail nowadays) in the ED, or it is stable enough that the diagnostic thoracentesis can be left to IR and the inpatient team.
 
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From a risk management standpoint, if you're doing a thoracentesis, paracentesis or pericardiocentesis you better be prepared to write a huge check if anything goes wrong.

Lawyer:
You're at a major tertiary care center?

You:
Yes

Lawyer
You have IR/interventional cards available?

You:
Yes

Lawyer:
Was the patient hemodynamically unstable and unable to wait for a specialist?

You:
No

Lawyer:
So Doctor, why did you do the procedure?

Nothing you say matters, you just write the check. I think in significant hemodynamic situations/codes or with some leeway to podunk ED's situated between cows you might get some sympathy but a jury will hang you dry if you had an interventionalist upstairs sleeping while you felt badass enough to stick a needle in someone's heart and a mistake was made--even if the specialist would have made the same mistake!

For reference, with appropriate specialists precepting in residency I did
2 paracentesis
1 thoracentesis
2 pericardiocentesis

As an attending I've done only one of those, a pericardiocentesis in a code caused by massive tamponade. That, I think, is the only time we are allowed to stick a needle in a heart and if you're doing that twice per shift you're unlucky or not doing it for the right reasons.
 
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I don't necessarily agree with @alpinism vis a vis the comment that there are "very few hospitals that provide high quality training in emergency medicine," however, I do feel it odd that you did literally none of those things as a resident.
I guess the real question regarding the quality of their training, is whether or not they'd be able to do those procedures at the drop of a hat were a patient to need it, and feel comfortable doing so. Versus getting their panties in a bundle and calling in a consultant while the patient is circling the drain. I've definitely seen several docs who trained at "Brand Name" programs (county or otherwise) who'd do the latter.

Are people doing thoracenteses frequently in the ED nowadays? From what I've seen, the effusion is either bad enough that it needs some sort of chest tube (pigtail nowadays) in the ED, or it is stable enough that the diagnostic thoracentesis can be left to IR and the inpatient team.
Not that I know of. It's not really a resuscitative procedure. Although I did do one a few weeks ago. They're not hard and well within our skillset, just rarely indicated on an emergent basis.
 
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From a risk management standpoint, if you're doing a thoracentesis, paracentesis or pericardiocentesis you better be prepared to write a huge check if anything goes wrong.

Lawyer:
You're at a major tertiary care center?

You:
Yes

Lawyer
You have IR/interventional cards available?

You:
Yes

Lawyer:
Was the patient hemodynamically unstable and unable to wait for a specialist?

You:
No

Lawyer:
So Doctor, why did you do the procedure?

Nothing you say matters, you just write the check. I think in significant hemodynamic situations/codes or with some leeway to podunk ED's situated between cows you might get some sympathy but a jury will hang you dry if you had an interventionalist upstairs sleeping while you felt badass enough to stick a needle in someone's heart and a mistake was made--even if the specialist would have made the same mistake!

For reference, with appropriate specialists precepting in residency I did
2 paracentesis
1 thoracentesis
2 pericardiocentesis

As an attending I've done only one of those, a pericardiocentesis in a code caused by massive tamponade. That, I think, is the only time we are allowed to stick a needle in a heart and if you're doing that twice per shift you're unlucky or not doing it for the right reasons.
That's some horse**** right there. Look I'm not saying it's a good idea to stick a needle in every pericardium w/ a bit of fluid. But if there's any hint of instability or impending shock it's absolutely within our purview to do so.

Also, I'm not sure why you're lumping paras and thoras in w/ pericardiocentesis. Do you call ortho in to tap every knee too?
 
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Only two paras seems weird, unless you mean LVP. Are you not doing diagnostic paras for SBP? I feel like I do one at minimum every 2-3 months
 
I did some paras in residency. Easy but time consuming. Now we have IR do them 100% of the time. Same goes for thoracentesis. I *could* do these procedures but the time investment isn't worth it.
 
I went to an old, well-known program and never did a pericardiocentesis, a thoracentesis, put in a transvenous pacer, or a lateral canthotomy. Does that mean that my program doesn't provide high-quality training?

Honestly that depends on if that was the norm for your graduating class of residents.

Look I'm not trying to put down any programs in particular but just pointing out that programs offer a wide range of training in critical procedures.
While there haven't been any more recent surveys the last survey of programs back in 2000 showed that the average graduating EM resident preformed 5 pericardiocentesis with a wide range of averages between programs ranging from 1 to 20 pericardiocentesis.

Now you could make the argument that certain procedure numbers have gone down over the past few years due to advances in technology and medical care but at the same time patients have been getting more complex and sicker and talking to some of the older attendings they haven't noticed a huge drop in the number of critical procedures for residents over the years.
 
From a risk management standpoint, if you're doing a thoracentesis, paracentesis or pericardiocentesis you better be prepared to write a huge check if anything goes wrong.

Lawyer:
You're at a major tertiary care center?

You:
Yes

Lawyer
You have IR/interventional cards available?

You:
Yes

Lawyer:
Was the patient hemodynamically unstable and unable to wait for a specialist?

You:
No

Lawyer:
So Doctor, why did you do the procedure?

Nothing you say matters, you just write the check. I think in significant hemodynamic situations/codes or with some leeway to podunk ED's situated between cows you might get some sympathy but a jury will hang you dry if you had an interventionalist upstairs sleeping while you felt badass enough to stick a needle in someone's heart and a mistake was made--even if the specialist would have made the same mistake!

For reference, with appropriate specialists precepting in residency I did
2 paracentesis
1 thoracentesis
2 pericardiocentesis

As an attending I've done only one of those, a pericardiocentesis in a code caused by massive tamponade. That, I think, is the only time we are allowed to stick a needle in a heart and if you're doing that twice per shift you're unlucky or not doing it for the right reasons.

So if you had a patient with tamponade causing obstructive shock you’d do nothing and just page cardiology?
 
The only reason I could justify doing a pericardiocemtesis in the ER is in a crashing patient that’s going to die before the cardiologist gets here.
The controlled environment of the Ir suite of cath lab is in the best interest of the patient.
Same with some thoras/ paras. Unless the patient is in extremis, there is no rush to do it in the ED if the patient is getting admitted.
 
Honestly that depends on if that was the norm for your graduating class of residents.

Look I'm not trying to put down any programs in particular but just pointing out that programs offer a wide range of training in critical procedures.
While there haven't been any more recent surveys the last survey of programs back in 2000 showed that the average graduating EM resident preformed 5 pericardiocentesis with a wide range of averages between programs ranging from 1 to 20 pericardiocentesis.

Now you could make the argument that certain procedure numbers have gone down over the past few years due to advances in technology and medical care but at the same time patients have been getting more complex and sicker and talking to some of the older attendings they haven't noticed a huge drop in the number of critical procedures for residents over the years.
I went to an old established program and I never did one. I think maybe one or two other residents ever did one on a live patient for those 3 years. Part of this is that we're finding out that many procedures we used to do pretty often (LPs, central lines, etc.) aren't necessary. I'd find it hard to believe the average is 5 today per resident. I've had many patients since residency that had pericardial effusions with tamponade physiology. Exactly zero of them have needed me to stick a needle in their chest right that second.
 
I went to an old established program and I never did one. I think maybe one or two other residents ever did one on a live patient for those 3 years. Part of this is that we're finding out that many procedures we used to do pretty often (LPs, central lines, etc.) aren't necessary. I'd find it hard to believe the average is 5 today per resident. I've had many patients since residency that had pericardial effusions with tamponade physiology. Exactly zero of them have needed me to stick a needle in their chest right that second.

Agreed. Thr last two I saw wen to thr OR for a window
 
Are you guys saying you never do diagnostic paracenteses either? I mean, SBP is a pretty important diagnosis to establish, and it's literally a 5 min procedure (total time--from making the decision to do it, to walking out of the room). Obviously therapeutic are a different matter and not really an emergent procedure.
 
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Are you guys saying you never do diagnostic paracenteses either? I mean, SBP is a pretty important diagnosis to establish, and it's literally a 5 min procedure (total time--from making the decision to do it, to walking out of the room). Obviously therapeutic are a different matter and not really an emergent procedure.
Who said that? If I think they have SBP then I'll do one. I don't do them very often but my current patient population has a pretty low prevalence of patients that would develop this.
 
Honestly that depends on if that was the norm for your graduating class of residents.

Look I'm not trying to put down any programs in particular but just pointing out that programs offer a wide range of training in critical procedures.
While there haven't been any more recent surveys the last survey of programs back in 2000 showed that the average graduating EM resident preformed 5 pericardiocentesis with a wide range of averages between programs ranging from 1 to 20 pericardiocentesis.

Now you could make the argument that certain procedure numbers have gone down over the past few years due to advances in technology and medical care but at the same time patients have been getting more complex and sicker and talking to some of the older attendings they haven't noticed a huge drop in the number of critical procedures for residents over the years.

How prevalent was the use of POC ultrasound back in 2000? Knowledge about the Hs and Ts was probably pretty prevalent, as was a more liberal view of doing borderline procedures on pts circling the drain "for training." Stands to reason that a high proportion of those pericardiocentesis #s were on fresh corpses.
 
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Who said that? If I think they have SBP then I'll do one. I don't do them very often but my current patient population has a pretty low prevalence of patients that would develop this.
Veers, hawkeye and AlmostanMD all said or implied this. Which I find very hard to believe, so maybe I'm misinterpreting? I don't understand how thoras and paras are getting lumped in w/ pericardiocentesis. They have more in common w/ an arthrocentesis imho.
 
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Are you guys saying you never do diagnostic paracenteses either? I mean, SBP is a pretty important diagnosis to establish, and it's literally a 5 min procedure (total time--from making the decision to do it, to walking out of the room). Obviously therapeutic are a different matter and not really an emergent procedure.
Anyone frequently admitting patients with cirrhosis should be performing paras. AKI, altered mental status, fever, abdominal pain - all would necessitate a paracentesis to inform management. A thoracentesis, on the other hand...

As far as the pericardiocentesis - I have done one in a traumatic arrest scenario in the field. I don't think having done this procedure multiple times should be included in anyone's metrics for a "solid program".
 
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From a risk management standpoint, if you're doing a thoracentesis, paracentesis or pericardiocentesis you better be prepared to write a huge check if anything goes wrong.

Lawyer:
You're at a major tertiary care center?

You:
Yes

Lawyer
You have IR/interventional cards available?

You:
Yes

Lawyer:
Was the patient hemodynamically unstable and unable to wait for a specialist?

You:
No

Lawyer:
So Doctor, why did you do the procedure?

Nothing you say matters, you just write the check. I think in significant hemodynamic situations/codes or with some leeway to podunk ED's situated between cows you might get some sympathy but a jury will hang you dry if you had an interventionalist upstairs sleeping while you felt badass enough to stick a needle in someone's heart and a mistake was made--even if the specialist would have made the same mistake!

For reference, with appropriate specialists precepting in residency I did
2 paracentesis
1 thoracentesis
2 pericardiocentesis

As an attending I've done only one of those, a pericardiocentesis in a code caused by massive tamponade. That, I think, is the only time we are allowed to stick a needle in a heart and if you're doing that twice per shift you're unlucky or not doing it for the right reasons.

Or just know what the tip of your needle looks like on ultrasound.
 
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