NP Claims

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the point is one the job training does not equal med school + residency +/- fellowship. You are simply naive to think otherwise. I'm not even going to bother explaining.

if you were a med student you could easily see the difference in knowledge depth, intellect, etc when comparing physicians to NPs to PAs.



The government will not stop hiring physicians... first of all physicians are the ones who determine payment and certification by the government. To think they'll certify non-physicians is pretty funny. Also, the government is not immune to lawsuits. All it will take is one case of a mishap/lawsuit and that will be the end.



economics does not dictate the training of physicians... personnel less trained would drastically lower the standard of care. No one is advocating for this except naive NPs. Patients aren't that dumb either to take the care of a nurse over a doctor.



what's your point... mastering the business of medicine is not even analogous to mastering the complexities of medicine.



this isn't even worth arguing with you because you don't understand and are too set in your mindset. Just realize that is a midlevel you will not ever be seen as a physician's equal, won't ever be paid the same, and won't ever be given the same responsibilities. Think whatever you want but that's the way it is. NPs are assistants and trained as such.


My point is that we neglect any business training / economics / lawsuits / etc in medical school much to our demise. This neglect is the reason why physicians are in the place they are today and midlevels are moving into their position... business / politics / etc. My other point is that midlevels will lower the pay of physicians by training for certain procedures in the future (i.e. becoming technicians for highly relevant/reimbursed medical services). Certification? I didn't say any of that. Midlevels doing tasks that were reserved for physicians 10 years ago? Yes, they will do that. Those are my points. See the field of anesthesia for a good example. I am a med student.
 
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My point is that we neglect any business training / economics / lawsuits / etc in medical school much to our demise. This neglect is the reason why physicians are in the place they are today and midlevels are moving into their position... business / politics / etc. My other point is that midlevels will lower the pay of physicians by training for certain procedures in the future (i.e. becoming technicians for highly relevant/reimbursed medical services). Certification? I didn't say any of that. Midlevels doing tasks that were reserved for physicians 10 years ago? Yes, they will do that. Those are my points. See the field of anesthesia for a good example. I am a med student.

Doing them and doing them proficiently are two different things

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Doing them and doing them proficiently are two different things

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I never made that argument once. Doing them and getting paid to do them is my only argument.
 
My point is that we neglect any business training. My other point is that midlevels will lower the pay of physicians by training for certain procedures in the future (i.e. becoming technicians for highly relevant/reimbursed medical services). Those are my points. I am a med student.

you are a naive med student then to think midlevels will be doing procedures on their own for lower pay. (e.g. Why even have a NP do the colonoscopy? Why not just have a person who goes to colonoscopy school... obviously I'm being facetious to point out how your logic is dumb)

And you are obviously a young med student with little clinical experience.

Finally, medicine is not about lowering costs. It is about providing good care. If NP's trained to do colonoscopies miss 10% more cancers that is absolutely unacceptable. It they miss 1% more that is unacceptable. No one should be that 1%. No one. If a person of any social status is undergoing the procedure that procedure should be done by the most qualified person.

Also I find it funny you use screening colonoscopy as the example where a technician could do it... this screening test has single handedly decreased death from colon caner by 50% or some other very high figure. Why in the world would you advocate changing the training paradigms for it and have lesser qualified people perform the procedure?
 
Finally, medicine is not about lowering costs. It is about providing good care.

lol, who is the naive one?

If NP's trained to do colonoscopies miss 10% more cancers that is absolutely unacceptable. It they miss 1% more that is unacceptable. No one should be that 1%. No one. If a person of any social status is undergoing the procedure that procedure should be done by the most qualified person.

Also I find it funny you use screening colonoscopy as the example where a technician could do it... this screening test has single handedly decreased death from colon caner by 50% or some other very high figure. Why in the world would you advocate changing the training paradigms for it and have lesser qualified people perform the procedure?

The government will pay for inferior service if it is cheaper. Do you really believe they won't take a loss of 1% in quality for 50% of the cost? You can say I lack clinical experience (a majority of med students do), but it appears you lack real world experience.

Pap smears has been one of the most successful screening tools in the world. They are done by many providers across the world.

I'm not really advocating anything... other than I would like med school to be shorter. I'm just talking about my view of midlevels in our future healthcare system. It's an important discussion, because you can bet the midlevels focus on this more than physicians do.
 
lol, who is the naive one?

uh... you.

The government will pay for inferior service if it is cheaper. Do you really believe they won't take a loss of 1% in quality for 50% of the cost? You can say I lack clinical experience, but it appears you lack real world experience.

Pap smears has been one of the most successful screening tools in the world. They are done by many providers across the world.

I'm not really advocating anything... other than I would like med school to be shorter. I'm just talking about my view of midlevels in our future healthcare system. It's an important discussion, because you can beat the midlevels focus on this more than physicians do.

show me evidence of the government paying for inferior medical care and therefore not paying for the superior care.

You view on midlevels is naive. You think the care they provide is equivalent and because it, right now, is cheaper it will take over. Now if a midlevel provided equivalent care (they don't) why would they want to make the same money they make now? shouldn't their pay go up to the physician's level.

also, I'm tired of having this argument because it isn't an intellectual one. It's merely arguing against your naive and inexperienced view points.
 
uh... you.



show me evidence of the government paying for inferior medical care and therefore not paying for the superior care.

You view on midlevels is naive. You think the care they provide is equivalent and because it, right now, is cheaper it will take over. Now if a midlevel provided equivalent care (they don't) why would they want to make the same money they make now? shouldn't their pay go up to the physician's level.

also, I'm tired of having this argument because it isn't an intellectual one. It's merely arguing against your naive and inexperienced view points.

You have a lot to learn about the real world if you think the government won't cut costs even at the expense of patients health.

Btw, what is your experience level? Attending? 20 years of practice? Please don't say M3 or M4 with ~12 months (or less) in the clinic...:meanie:
 
2 years undergrad + 3 years medical school + residency would be the optimal training period IMO.

There's no reason why the pre-clinical years should be 2 years; there's so much small **** that could be cut out and not impact physician training one bit. Do we really need to know the molecular weights of various proteins or 25 different landmarks on the tibia?
 
2 years undergrad + 3 years medical school + residency would be the optimal training period IMO.

There's no reason why the pre-clinical years should be 2 years; there's so much small **** that could be cut out and not impact physician training one bit. Do we really need to know the molecular weights of various proteins or 25 different landmarks on the tibia?

I would say no but we should have an appreciation for these things and acknowledge the existence of the knowledge which makes us doctors and not technicians. Cut undergrad medical school no or were just PAs with residencies which we are not.
 
2 years undergrad + 3 years medical school + residency would be the optimal training period IMO.

The problem is that the incoming students are very immature. Those two years matter.

If there was a more streamlined way to get into residency couldn't most of 4th yr go away?
at a lot of places it is electives, vacation, and interview time. a doc I work with spent most of 4th yr hiking in the himalayas between rural clinics...it was more about mtn climbing than building skills...he was summit bagging almost all yr long....
the 3 yr programs recognize this already....most are tied into specific residencies.

The 3 year programs force people into specific residencies, either primary care ones that were never competitive to get in the first place or the promise of institutional spots at admission. This is not going to work on a larger scale unless the sole goal is popping out more primary care docs. Furthermore, the 3 year programs are very intense and don't give the students any significant breaks, and electives are largely out the window. Much more difficult to make an informed decision about the right residency for you. It just isn't a model you can roll out everywhere, but it will work in some circumstances with the right students.

The government will pay for inferior service if it is cheaper. Do you really believe they won't take a loss of 1% in quality for 50% of the cost? You can say I lack clinical experience (a majority of med students do), but it appears you lack real world experience.

I think you are right if the difference is 1%. If the actual difference ends up being higher than that, the public will start questioning it quickly. No other developed country takes such short cuts in training clinicians. Furthermore, you can save money with 1% **** ups, but a few more percentage points and the adverse outcomes quickly drive up costs. How big the difference actually is will determine much. Keep in mind that the old timers like emedPA are fast becoming the exception in midlevels- highly experienced and trained when the standards to get into midlevel programs were much higher. Of course they are very close in performance to physicians. The standards and training are both much worse now, and I believe that the huge wave of fresh grads coming out of the newest programs with lax admissions standards will be a serious patient safety issue. Just look at the online DNPs and the newest direct entry PA programs at small schools with bare bones clinical rotations. They are a joke, and their poorly supervised grads will kill patients. NPs used to be ICU nurses with a decade of experience; PAs used to be military corpsmen with years of battlefield experience. Neither is true anymore.
 
I wouldn't lump in PAs with NPs. (Not saying anyone is lumping them together, but just wanted to point it out).

If you look at PA curricula, they actually have a pretty rigorous, science-based program. With a decent number of clinical hours of training. All of those are missing from NP and DNP programs. Plus, even with better training than NPs, you don't really see PAs claiming to be equivalent to physicians or demanding that they be allowed to practice with full independence.

I fully agree with you, xenotype, that the days of NPs having 10+ years of experience in the ICU, etc, are over. The new breed of NPs are the ones who have gone through direct-entry diploma mills and come out demanding full independence after a total of 500-1500 hours of clinical training. They see the practice of medicine as a "right" that they deserve, not as a privilege. If you browse nursing forums, you won't see anyone asking what NP programs are quality programs or highly recommended or whatever. You just see people asking what's the fastest way they can get through a program, how easy it is to work full-time while getting an online NP or DNP degree, what arguments they can use to convince people that NPs are equivalent or superior to physicians, etc. The old-school NPs, who've actually had a lot of prior nursing experience, are the few reasonable ones who try to keep that kind of talk to a minimum, but they're few and thus, get drowned out by the majority who want a physician's scope of practice with as minimal effort as possible on their part.
 
I think we just have a different philosophy on training.

I don't think training starts or ends at any point... i.e. I think you can learn a lot after the official training time (I.e. after residency, after whatever). If someone is in a field, sees lots of patients, loves their work, reads specialty relevant research and specialty relevant excellent books, works with excellent physicians, and sees a variety of pathology, then they can learn just about anything. In that respect, I don't know if it matters if I had 5.5. years or 7 years, or 6.5 years or whatever preceding that time. In fact, I remember someone saying you don't learn much about medicine in medical school, to which I asked, well, you must learn a ton in residency, they said no to that also. It's the actual day in and day out practice of medicine and taking care of patients where the most education occurs... I'm not there yet but I thought it was an excellent point and I tend to agree.

Why don't nurses become doctors? Time of training, hard work, inability to obtain the credentials. All things nurses aren't interested in. No one goes to nursing school because they think it's a better model than physician education.
 
Why don't nurses become doctors? Time of training, hard work, inability to obtain the credentials. All things nurses aren't interested in. No one goes to nursing school because they think it's a better model than physician education.

Some come out that way though....

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2 years undergrad + 3 years medical school + residency would be the optimal training period IMO.

Pre-clinical medical education could be improved in a few ways. Don't get me wrong, I think the education delivered creates a good product but improvements can always be made.

For instance, anatomical education could be improved drastically. Instead of PhDs who have no clinical experience it should be taught by surgeons and interventionalists. I shouldn't learn that the LAD is the anterior interventricular artery. I'll never call it that again after 1st year anatomy so why should I learn it that way?. Orthopedists or physiatrists should teach muscle/bone anatomy. General surgeons abdomen. CT, thoracic surgeons or cardiologists/pulm should teach thoracic anatomy.

Histology should be taught by clinical pathologists and should be all digital. Biochem could be shortened, put in 2nd year and made more clinically relevant. This could be paired with research structure and how to set up a basic research/biochemical study.
 
Pre-clinical medical education could be improved in a few ways. Don't get me wrong, I think the education delivered creates a good product but improvements can always be made.

For instance, anatomical education could be improved drastically. Instead of PhDs who have no clinical experience it should be taught by surgeons and interventionalists. I shouldn't learn that the LAD is the anterior interventricular artery. I'll never call it that again after 1st year anatomy so why should I learn it that way?. Orthopedists or physiatrists should teach muscle/bone anatomy. General surgeons abdomen. CT, thoracic surgeons or cardiologists/pulm should teach thoracic anatomy.

Histology should be taught by clinical pathologists and should be all digital. Biochem could be shortened, put in 2nd year and made more clinically relevant. This could be paired with research structure and how to set up a basic research/biochemical study.

It would be tough to get all those docs in board. You also get variability with docs. I know many docs who have some facts messed up about pre clinical facts. Doesn't impact their practice, but wouldn't help on boards either.

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It sounds like the definition of a nurse, technician, and doctor have been intentionally changed by some salesmen in this managed healthcare market.

If a doctor (i.e. a physician, who holds a medical school diploma at hands) has started competing against nurses, PAs, or technicians for the same job, or if a nurse is allowed to claim that she/he can work as a doctor but for a fraction of the money, then somethings have been going wrong in here. Alert!..

I don't know, for instance in Europe or Asia, if a nurse can legally be allowed to compete with a doctor (physician) for the same job, or if a healtcare setting can replace a physician with a nurse or technician.

Without having adequate amount of education (which is generally called the medical school + the residency), nobody can have the legal right to take care of patients by calling himself/herself a "doctor".

IMHO, legal/governmental enforcement is necessary to enforce the boundaries between physicians, nurses and PAs. Uninformed general public (patients) cannot do this, and most probably fall into the trap.

Physicians have been doing their best to learn about and practice on human body by absorbing and relating an amazing amount of knowledge each day. If nurses would like to do the same, then they're welcome to apply to medical school. Years of experience proved that a shortcut to this way is gonna cost malpractice, which risk lives. Medicine is to heal not to risk people. Even educated physicians do malpractice after being trained that long. C'mon.

Besides, it's also told that nurses & PAs will take over primary care jobs from physicians because physician supplies doesn't satisfy the demand. Let's assume that, for a sec, this is correct. So, if we need more physicians, then:

1) Why our medical schools (MD/DO, public/private) still resist to increase their class sizes?
2) Why our residency programs don't increase their number of seats to recruit the new medical school graduates?
3) Why do we still import foreign medical graduates (especially from Indian and China)? They don't straight up start for working as attending physicians; instead, they are first accreditted by LCME just to let them go for a residency or a fellowship, which as well can be offered to our medical school graduates.
 

$$$$$$$$

i argued in another thread that pre-med is not necessary to become a doctor..i have friends who went overseas for medical school straight out of high school without ever taking general chemistry/organic chemistry/physics/w/lab or the MCAT but did VERY well on USMLE Step 1/Step 2/Step 3 (>240) and are now in residency in nice cities (think NYC, philly) in the US..its nice to have that basic science background if you're going into academia but not everyone is..

college was great for the experience but it is not at all required to become a competent doctor..you can feed into the bull that it'll make us well-rounded (i personally can't recall anything of substance that I learned in my arts history class freshmen year of undergrad..) but truth is it is extremely profitable for many stakeholders...tuition is at record highs (and increasing) because government/banks/sallie mae are handing out hundreds of thousands of dollars per person plus interest to everyone and their mothers...and with the current state of employment, get ready for the next bubble to pop...
 
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$$$$$$$$

i argued in another thread that pre-med is not necessarily required to become a doctor..i have friends who went to overseas for medical school straight out of high school without ever taking general chemistry/organic chemistry/physics/w/lab or the MCAT but did VERY well on USMLE Step 1/Step 2/Step 3 (>240) and are now in residency in nice cities (think NYC, philly) in the US..its nice to have the basic science background if you're going into academia..

college was great for the experience but it is not at all required to become a competent doctor..you can feed into the bull that it'll make us well-rounded (i personally can't recall anything of substance that I learned in my arts history class freshmen year of undergrad..) but truth is it is extremely profitable for many stakeholders...tuition is at record highs because because government/banks/sallie mae are handing out hundred of thousands of dollars per person plus interest to everyone and their mothers...and with the current state of employment, get ready for the next bubble to pop...

Exactly.
 
I remember Atul Gawande writing about nurses who were getting better results at appys(?) because they just did the same procedure all day, everyday. Better than general surgeons with lots of experience.

Anything can be learned anyway. It's not true to say that doctors can learn something that nurses can't. Anyone can learn anything, given the time, concentration, focus, resources, and ability.

Not really sure what you're referring to here. In one of his books (can't remember if it was Better or Complications) he talks about a hospital in Toronto where the surgeons only performed hernia repairs, day in and day out, dozens per day, and got better results. But they were definitely doctors. I've never heard of nurses operating on anyone/thing.
 
The fact that you even make this statement makes me feel as though you have very little/no medical school/residency experience.

Bingo. You can tell by the generalizations that he speaks in that he has minimal medical experience. Clear as day.
 
Attention everyone: stop using undergrad = 4 years to inflate the value of your training.

Undergrad graduation = t0 for medical training.
 
Attention everyone: stop using undergrad = 4 years to inflate the value of your training.

Undergrad graduation = t0 for medical training.

Agreed. But 2 years of nursing school are not equal to 2 years of medical school

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Just wanted to toss this into the mix, from Health Affairs:

http://www.healthaffairs.org/healthpolicybriefs/brief.php?brief_id=79

Have any of you seen research that contradicts the mostly positive claims about NPs in this piece?

Not really. There are problems with getting that sort of research.

Many of the claims NPs make are based on inappropriate studies. Unfortunately it is a struggle to do the appropriate ones.

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This just really makes me upset...
(1) had an open mind, then got bruised at point of ppd admin'd by an NP. Then got some basic lymphadenitis diagnosed as lymphoma by an NP wearing steth backwards. done.
(2) this is probably less an NP lobby thing and more political magic: shortage of GPs? We'll just wave this'ere wand and make NP = GP. boom.



🙁
 
Even with my 4 year residency in EM - I am still learning something new every day and I don't have everything nailed down. An NP wants to practice independently? In my field?

Go ahead... we'll see what happens.
 
Even with my 4 year residency in EM - I am still learning something new every day and I don't have everything nailed down. An NP wants to practice independently? In my field?

Go ahead... we'll see what happens.

+1

But, unfortunately, they go ahead and have been supported in doing that... There should be an authority to cease this marching before peoples' lives have been risked.
 
They want our jobs and incomes, just not the actual responsibility or malpractice.
You'll notice, docs get in trouble with them, even when they ARE licensed.
It's a hot topic with docs who are getting pressure from hospitals to sign off on PA/NP work (and assume vicarious liability), or be fired.

Malpractice Risks With NPs and PAs in Your Practice

Mark Crane
DisclosuresJan 03, 2013
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/775746

(a small excerpt)

A $217 Million Malpractice Case Involving a PA
The second-largest malpractice award inUShistory focused directly on how a medical practice credentialed and supervised a midlevel provider. Although the facts in the cases are unique, they can provide lessons for all physicians who work with PAs.
In2007, a jury inTampa,Florida, awarded $217 million, including $100 million in punitive damages, to a man whose cerebellar stroke was misdiagnosed as sinusitis at a hospital ED in 2000. The then-44-year-old mechanic presented with headache, nausea, dizziness, confusion, and double vision. He had a history of hypertension, diabetes, and elevated cholesterol and had a family history of stroke.
A midlevel provider ordered blood tests and CT without contrast, which were approved by the ED physician. Both were employed by a medical group that contracted with the hospital to run the ED. Thefirst CTscan was negative for stroke, as was a second one done a few hours later with contrast. The ED physician didn't repeat the examination, history, or neurologic assessment. Instead, he relied on the extender's findings to diagnose "sinusitis/headache," the lawsuit said. The doctor prescribed a painkiller and an antibiotic and discharged the patient.
The next morning, the mechanic awoke with a severe headache, slurred speech, nausea, confusion, and trouble walking. He returned to the ED. A new CT scan showed that he had had a stroke. A shunt was inserted into his brain to relieve intracranial pressure, but the damage was irreversible. The man was left paralyzed and with mental disabilities. He remained in a coma for 3 months and spent the next 6 months at care facilities. He remains paraplegic.
The lawsuit alleged that the patient presented with classic stroke symptoms that the ED doctor should have detected. The crucial part of the trial involved the midlevel provider. It took 16 months before the medical group revealed his name, describing him only as an "expediter" who served as a note-taker, or scribe, to help the ED doctors. When lawyers deposed him, they learned that he was an unlicensed PA, having failed the state licensure test for PAs 4 times. He denied during depositions that he performed patient examinations.
The ED physician testified that he'd assumed the midlevel was a licensed PA and that he didn't need to redo the history and examination. The doctor and his medical group blamed each other. The doctor said he would have redone the examination if he'd known that the expediter was unlicensed. The medical group's leader said it was the doctor's responsibility to ask the expediter about his status.
There had been no written guidelines for what the midlevel provider was authorized to do. "This group created this system that was ripe for mishap, to push more people through the ED so they could increase profits," said plaintiff's attorney David Dickey. "Instead of hiring a real PA or another ED doctor, they used the midlevel to save money."
The jury was clearly outraged, finding that the group had tried to conceal the midlevel's involvement from the plaintiffs and placed profits over patient safety.
Lawsuits involving midlevel providers are likely to grow as their numbers expand and their scope of practice increases owing to pressure from the doctor shortage and the Affordable Care Act. They can provide a tremendous benefit to your practice -- if you follow established protocols about supervision, say risk managers.
 
Even with my 4 year residency in EM - I am still learning something new every day and I don't have everything nailed down. An NP wants to practice independently? In my field?

Go ahead... we'll see what happens.

The problem is that every time someone says 'we'll see what happens' we wait, we see, and nothing happens. We all have our anecdotes about incompetent mid levels but anecdotes aren't studies. The truth is that I also have lots of anecdotes about incompetent doctors. The studies showing significant differences in outcomes just aren't appeariing
 
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There is an upcoming AMA-MSS, Resident, Fellow meeting in Chicago. I think that there has been agreement on this issue across the board and as such a few steps may be taken starting with the submission of a resolution to have the AMA-MSS produce a comprehensive and detailed report comparing the educational curriculum and training differences between medical students/residents/fellows/attendings and NP students/NP's. After a proper report is written and accepted by the AMA-MSS then it should be accepted by the "big AMA" and subsequently distributed to state legislatures across the country. At that point we would have at least provided them with an adequate opportunity to objectively (rather than paradoxically) assess the qualification differences.
 
The problem is that every time someone says 'we'll see what happens' we wait, we see, and nothing happens. We all have our anecdotes about incompetent mid levels but anecdotes aren't studies. The truth is that I also have lots of anecdotes about incompetent doctors. The studies showing significant differences in outcomes just aren't appeariing

Every time you look at actual data on hospital safety, the results are striking. Some hospitals are terribly unsafe and kill patients needlessly left and right. Others have a small fraction of the number of complications, acquired infections, and unnecessary costs. Many of the worst hospitals on quality are well regarded, very large academic medical centers. Just because you don't see the poor outcomes doesn't mean they aren't actually there. Of course, very little data is collected because an otherwise profitable hospital like Cedars-Sinai could have its business and reputation ruined by an F grade from poor patient care.

Let's conduct some actual studies on the issue, and then come to a conclusion.
 
Every time you look at actual data on hospital safety, the results are striking. Some hospitals are terribly unsafe and kill patients needlessly left and right. Others have a small fraction of the number of complications, acquired infections, and unnecessary costs. Many of the worst hospitals on quality are well regarded, very large academic medical centers. Just because you don't see the poor outcomes doesn't mean they aren't actually there. Of course, very little data is collected because an otherwise profitable hospital like Cedars-Sinai could have its business and reputation ruined by an F grade from poor patient care.

Let's conduct some actual studies on the issue, and then come to a conclusion.

They are also poorly controlled and designed. I agree, we need studies. But we need the right studies.

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I remember Atul Gawande writing about nurses who were getting better results at appys(?) because they just did the same procedure all day, everyday. Better than general surgeons with lots of experience.
I'd love to see the citation for this, and I'd love to see the data to support it.

Because I don't believe it.
 
Pap smears has been one of the most successful screening tools in the world. They are done by many providers across the world.
The vagina is about 6 inches deep, with a cervix at the end of it. You swab it with a brush and you're done. You can't perforate it.

I can tell you have never done a colonoscopy, and you've probably never even watched one.
 
The vagina is about 6 inches deep, with a cervix at the end of it. You swab it with a brush and you're done. You can't perforate it.

I can tell you have never done a colonoscopy, and you've probably never even watched one.

semi-related. How do you feel about colonics? Aside from being complete BS in terms of value, is there danger of perforating?
 
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