Chair of the ABIM (Dr. Yul) defending NP.

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You can't really make that [insert] up!

This is the guy who tells us we have to be board certified to practice medicine and he is defending someone with an online degree and 500 hrs preceptorship who missed a classic PE.



 
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On one hand he makes a valid point that highlighting a case of one missed diagnosis doesn't definitively prove the point. The Med-mal world is full of MDs who missed PEs too - those things still scare the crap out of me!

On the other hand, the NP lobby uses their own unscientific rhetorical tools to claim they're more compassionate, thorough, etc. So maybe fair is fair and we should continue to highlight every time some midlevel blows a key diagnosis or step in management.
 
On one hand he makes a valid point that highlighting a case of one missed diagnosis doesn't definitively prove the point. The Med-mal world is full of MDs who missed PEs too - those things still scare the crap out of me!

On the other hand, the NP lobby uses their own unscientific rhetorical tools to claim they're more compassionate, thorough, etc. So maybe fair is fair and we should continue to highlight every time some midlevel blows a key diagnosis or step in management.
But calling it a "crushed sternum" when there was no traumatic incident and treating a sinus tach with adenosine, I find that hard to believe any 4th year med student would do that.


Here is the summary of the case! Credit to a Reddit member.

NP graduates from a family nurse practitioner program in December, testifies that all but 2 weeks of it were done online. In January, gets hired to do SOLO 24-hour shifts in an ED as her very first NP job. No on-site supervision or backup. Testifies as part of the deposition that she had never performed acute care. Had no experience as an NP in an ED. Was being paid 70 an hour (likely why they had NPs instead of MDs - can't attract a doctor to that setting). In August, was reprimanded for not getting notes done on time and needing to improve the content and style of her presentations to MDs. On September 1, they notified her she was being terminated, but could finish out her shifts for the rest of the month. This case actually occurs about two weeks after she received a termination notice. Of note, this was a 24-hour shift where she was scheduled to work until 10pm the night before at another hospital...

19 year old on OCPs came in tachycardic, hypoxic, hypotensive with systolics in the low 80s, complaining of chest pain, shortness of breath, and had passed out at home. Even the EMS documentation said they were concerned for a PE. Patient gets put on oxygen.

The NP gets a urine drug screen that's presumptive positive for methamphetamines but negative for amphetamines. That means it's a negative test - meth is metabolized into amphetamines, so you can't be truly positive for meth but negative for amphetamines. Patient, her boyfriend, and patient's mom all deny meth use. NP reruns the test and it comes back negative. Later, a blood test is also negative, but whatever.

The NP had ordered a CT (not CTA) but cancelled it once the UDS came back. And in the deposition, she actually said she ordered a CT head because of the syncope. I mean... what??

Patient eventually develops what the NP interpreted as PSVT, but what apparently was actually just appropriate sinus tachycardia. She gets adenosine. Terrible idea in someone with a PE.

She calls to admit the patient, and an NP takes that call. It seems like the second NP pointed out the abnormal vitals. After this, the NP in the ED orders a CT and a d-dimer at the same time. Not a CTA. The NP looks at the CT, interprets it as being "a crushed sternum" (???) and calls to transfer the patient. Prior to the receiving physician from the other hospital calling her back, the radiologist calls and tells her about the PEs. When the receiving physician calls back, the NP testified she told the receiving physician that the radiologist notified her about the PE.

But the only anticoagulation she ordered for the patient was prophylactic-dose Lovenox. With a total ED length of stay of 11 hours. Despite hemodynamic instability.

She ultimately did get transferred and had to get tPA, and died within two hours of landing at the receiving hospital.

ABIM Chair 100% should have done his due diligence and read up on the case before defending this as being something that just as easily could have been done by a physician. This is not a "I delivered excellent care but made a single mistake in interpreting a CT scan," as the headline implies. Because I can't really blame any hospital who hires an EM doc who screws up this bad -- this is beyond the pale for what one would expect from an EM doc. But a hospital who hires a new grad family practice NP to do UNSUPERVISED 24 HOUR SHIFTS WITHOUT ANY PRIOR ED EXPERIENCE? That hospital should know better. I wish this staffing model wasn't the reality... but it is.
 
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But calling it a "crushed sternum" when there was no traumatic incident and treating a sinus tach with adenosine, I find that hard to believe any 4th year med student would do that.
It's hard to believe because even the dumbest 4th year isn't doing that. Hell even a dumb third year isn't doing that and a good second year who had any sim lab training isn't doing it either.
 
But calling it a "crushed sternum" when there was no traumatic incident and treating a sinus tach with adenosine, I find that hard to believe any 4th year med student would do that.


Here is the summary of the case! Credit to a Reddit member.

NP graduates from a family nurse practitioner program in December, testifies that all but 2 weeks of it were done online. In January, gets hired to do SOLO 24-hour shifts in an ED as her very first NP job. No on-site supervision or backup. Testifies as part of the deposition that she had never performed acute care. Had no experience as an NP in an ED. Was being paid 70 an hour (likely why they had NPs instead of MDs - can't attract a doctor to that setting). In August, was reprimanded for not getting notes done on time and needing to improve the content and style of her presentations to MDs. On September 1, they notified her she was being terminated, but could finish out her shifts for the rest of the month. This case actually occurs about two weeks after she received a termination notice. Of note, this was a 24-hour shift where she was scheduled to work until 10pm the night before at another hospital...

19 year old on OCPs came in tachycardic, hypoxic, hypotensive with systolics in the low 80s, complaining of chest pain, shortness of breath, and had passed out at home. Even the EMS documentation said they were concerned for a PE. Patient gets put on oxygen.

The NP gets a urine drug screen that's presumptive positive for methamphetamines but negative for amphetamines. That means it's a negative test - meth is metabolized into amphetamines, so you can't be truly positive for meth but negative for amphetamines. Patient, her boyfriend, and patient's mom all deny meth use. NP reruns the test and it comes back negative. Later, a blood test is also negative, but whatever.

The NP had ordered a CT (not CTA) but cancelled it once the UDS came back. And in the deposition, she actually said she ordered a CT head because of the syncope. I mean... what??

Patient eventually develops what the NP interpreted as PSVT, but what apparently was actually just appropriate sinus tachycardia. She gets adenosine. Terrible idea in someone with a PE.

She calls to admit the patient, and an NP takes that call. It seems like the second NP pointed out the abnormal vitals. After this, the NP in the ED orders a CT and a d-dimer at the same time. Not a CTA. The NP looks at the CT, interprets it as being "a crushed sternum" (???) and calls to transfer the patient. Prior to the receiving physician from the other hospital calling her back, the radiologist calls and tells her about the PEs. When the receiving physician calls back, the NP testified she told the receiving physician that the radiologist notified her about the PE.

But the only anticoagulation she ordered for the patient was prophylactic-dose Lovenox. With a total ED length of stay of 11 hours. Despite hemodynamic instability.

She ultimately did get transferred and had to get tPA, and died within two hours of landing at the receiving hospital.

ABIM Chair 100% should have done his due diligence and read up on the case before defending this as being something that just as easily could have been done by a physician. This is not a "I delivered excellent care but made a single mistake in interpreting a CT scan," as the headline implies. Because I can't really blame any hospital who hires an EM doc who screws up this bad -- this is beyond the pale for what one would expect from an EM doc. But a hospital who hires a new grad family practice NP to do UNSUPERVISED 24 HOUR SHIFTS WITHOUT ANY PRIOR ED EXPERIENCE? That hospital should know better. I wish this staffing model wasn't the reality... but it is.
Ok wow that's especially bad. And I'm sure the hospital that fired her for being incompetent but let her keep working anyhow had to write a nice check too. I can't believe they let her work solo at all. Makes you wonder how many other boneheaded things she did in her brief time there.
 
Ok wow that's especially bad. And I'm sure the hospital that fired her for being incompetent but let her keep working anyhow had to write a nice check too. I can't believe they let her work solo at all. Makes you wonder how many other boneheaded things she did in her brief time there.
That NP is still working btw. She went to a different facility and is working independently there.
 
That NP is still working btw. She went to a different facility and is working independently there.
I wonder how her professional liability insurance carrier treats her? Though I guess she was probably already hired and credentialed before this lawsuit, but at some point this whole incident is going to be attached to all her apps and the inevitable future incidents as well. Maybe her premiums will eventually become cost prohibitive.
 
Why can't midlevels just be used as mere assistants to physicians to help with the flow of healthcare? Why are they given the power to diagnose?
No one should have the "power" to diagnose. All someone can have is knowledge to diagnose, for the best interest of the patient.
 
I wonder how her professional liability insurance carrier treats her? Though I guess she was probably already hired and credentialed before this lawsuit, but at some point this whole incident is going to be attached to all her apps and the inevitable future incidents as well. Maybe her premiums will eventually become cost prohibitive.
Not sure. Midlevels are far more likely to have their malpractice eaten by the hospital they work for.
 
ok, just an M3 here, but why didnt radiologist interpret the CT???
In the NP case, it wasn’t so much that she couldn’t interpret it (though she couldn’t), but that she waited like 10 hours to reorder it after initially canceling it.
 
Dear Dr Yul,
The point that you are making is true, but also in this horrendous case, irrelevant. You're trying to the make a defense of someone who made horrific mistakes that even my third and fourth-year students would not make.
 
You can't really make that [insert] up!

This is the guy who tells us we have to be board certified to practice medicine and he is defending someone with an online degree and 500 hrs preceptorship who missed a classic PE.




You think they even get 500 hours if training? Wrong I get asked to precept them. 160 hours. Total. And nothing like the supervision and treatment within m 3 and 4
 
You think they even get 500 hours if training? Wrong I get asked to precept them. 160 hours. Total. And nothing like the supervision and treatment within m 3 and 4
I know plenty of NPs who generously rounded up their hours as students lol.
 
ok, just an M3 here, but why didnt radiologist interpret the CT???
Many small hospitals cannot afford or justify keeping a radiologist in-house overnight given the low volumes, so non-urgent studies are read in the morning whereas studies marked urgent are read by on-call radiologist overnight.
 
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You can't really make that [insert] up!

This is the guy who tells us we have to be board certified to practice medicine and he is defending someone with an online degree and 500 hrs preceptorship who missed a classic PE.




I'm sure there's analysis on Reddit, SDN, MedScape etc. and I haven't heard of the social media reaction to all this as things haven gotten busy but from strictly reading Dr. Yul's tweet and from my prior experience, I do feel that MedReddit (in particular) is particularly dogmatic about their anti-PA/NP sentiment.

Reddit: Enter a forum specifically designed to discuss PA/NP incompetence. Post a story, someone reads it, everyone starts flaming NP/PAs indiscriminately. Any thoughtful, well-balanced post is downvoted to the bottom.

SDN: While there may be a consensus demonstrated by likes, everyone's opinion is at least represented with a much less monolithic discussion.

Anyways, back to the issue at hand, I didn't read the linked post here but what I understand based on the previewed image is that a PA/NP missed a PE because the dictation of the report did not report a PE. OK. While I understand the potential glaring hypocrisy in the ABIM requiring board certification while their director is defending NP/PAs with much less training social media, I think we as physicians need to be thoughtful. I fall in the camp (and believe me, I am anti-NP/PA advancement camp) that says we should have substantial critiques against NPs/PAs when we make them. There are tons of board certified physicians who either do not know how to interpret CT-PEs or do not look at the actual PE cross sectional images on CT to confirm the radiology dictation so while we can poke fun at NP/PAs and pretend like this is something a physician would not do, it is somethng many physicians have probably done. Instead, I think we should focus on how PAs/NPs think they have seen something a million times from experience and then present an incorrect synthesis to their attending who then recommends a wrong treatment because of it. This is the biggest issues I have seen on consulting teams with PAs which probably negatively affects a lot of patients. Many attendings don't seem to care about it either as you'll notice they'll tell their PAs to do something and then a week later will cosign the PAs note in order to bill so this isn't a PA/NP issue alone.
 
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But calling it a "crushed sternum" when there was no traumatic incident and treating a sinus tach with adenosine, I find that hard to believe any 4th year med student would do that.


Here is the summary of the case! Credit to a Reddit member.

NP graduates from a family nurse practitioner program in December, testifies that all but 2 weeks of it were done online. In January, gets hired to do SOLO 24-hour shifts in an ED as her very first NP job. No on-site supervision or backup. Testifies as part of the deposition that she had never performed acute care. Had no experience as an NP in an ED. Was being paid 70 an hour (likely why they had NPs instead of MDs - can't attract a doctor to that setting). In August, was reprimanded for not getting notes done on time and needing to improve the content and style of her presentations to MDs. On September 1, they notified her she was being terminated, but could finish out her shifts for the rest of the month. This case actually occurs about two weeks after she received a termination notice. Of note, this was a 24-hour shift where she was scheduled to work until 10pm the night before at another hospital...

19 year old on OCPs came in tachycardic, hypoxic, hypotensive with systolics in the low 80s, complaining of chest pain, shortness of breath, and had passed out at home. Even the EMS documentation said they were concerned for a PE. Patient gets put on oxygen.

The NP gets a urine drug screen that's presumptive positive for methamphetamines but negative for amphetamines. That means it's a negative test - meth is metabolized into amphetamines, so you can't be truly positive for meth but negative for amphetamines. Patient, her boyfriend, and patient's mom all deny meth use. NP reruns the test and it comes back negative. Later, a blood test is also negative, but whatever.

The NP had ordered a CT (not CTA) but cancelled it once the UDS came back. And in the deposition, she actually said she ordered a CT head because of the syncope. I mean... what??

Patient eventually develops what the NP interpreted as PSVT, but what apparently was actually just appropriate sinus tachycardia. She gets adenosine. Terrible idea in someone with a PE.

She calls to admit the patient, and an NP takes that call. It seems like the second NP pointed out the abnormal vitals. After this, the NP in the ED orders a CT and a d-dimer at the same time. Not a CTA. The NP looks at the CT, interprets it as being "a crushed sternum" (???) and calls to transfer the patient. Prior to the receiving physician from the other hospital calling her back, the radiologist calls and tells her about the PEs. When the receiving physician calls back, the NP testified she told the receiving physician that the radiologist notified her about the PE.

But the only anticoagulation she ordered for the patient was prophylactic-dose Lovenox. With a total ED length of stay of 11 hours. Despite hemodynamic instability.

She ultimately did get transferred and had to get tPA, and died within two hours of landing at the receiving hospital.

ABIM Chair 100% should have done his due diligence and read up on the case before defending this as being something that just as easily could have been done by a physician. This is not a "I delivered excellent care but made a single mistake in interpreting a CT scan," as the headline implies. Because I can't really blame any hospital who hires an EM doc who screws up this bad -- this is beyond the pale for what one would expect from an EM doc. But a hospital who hires a new grad family practice NP to do UNSUPERVISED 24 HOUR SHIFTS WITHOUT ANY PRIOR ED EXPERIENCE? That hospital should know better. I wish this staffing model wasn't the reality... but it is.
And after reading this I stand corrected and failed gloriously in my assessment in my previous post. In my defense, I did make a note I was only reading the preview, but as usual there was more to the story. WTH is a crushed sternum. Now that, said, I wouldn't be surprised if there is even more to the story about a physician in the background who missed stuff too concurrently that's somehow made it to the bottom of the Reddit comment section due to downvotes, but these are my personal opinions of MedReddit.

1. Unstable vitals were ignored. You don't ignore unstable vitals unless you have chronicity+/- comorbids and other reassuring factors on your side and the patient is being monitored closely in case you're wrong.
2. A CT non-con shouldn't have been ordered. That's inexcusable. I can see how a PA/NP with only 2 weeks of clinical experience can make this mistake as a human but it's inferior care. Most decent hospitals would take the decision is out of the hands of the ED and this would go straight from EMT to ICU. I blame the infrastructure that allowed this patient to just sit in the ED with the pretest probability for an obstructive PE as high as it was.
3. That meth fact is actually interesting and I didn't know it. Maybe I'm stupid.. I can't speak for others, but I would venture a guess that it's not something every board certified physician would know. I googled "Positive Methamphetamine Negative Amphetamine", clicked this link. Differentiating Medicinal from Illicit Use in Positive Methamphetamine Results in a Pain Population. Case 5 seems close to what's being discussed. Thanks for the useful information. Next time I look at a UDS, I'll see if MAM and AMP are both reported.

Worst of all, the director of the ABIM's opinion (unlike mine) carries weight and he shouldn't even be on social media making these comments independently without thorough knowledge into the background of the situation... Speaking about medical mistakes, what about administrative mistakes? Like isn't not commenting on controversial situations when you're in a leadership position Admin 101?
 
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And after reading this I stand corrected and failed gloriously in my assessment in my previous post. In my defense, I did make a note I was only reading the preview, but as usual there was more to the story. WTH is a crushed sternum. Now that, said, I wouldn't be surprised if there is even more to the story about a physician in the background who missed stuff too concurrently that's somehow made it to the bottom of the Reddit comment section due to downvotes, but these are my personal opinions of MedReddit.

1. Unstable vitals were ignored. You don't ignore unstable vitals unless you have chronicity+/- comorbids and other reassuring factors on your side and the patient is being monitored closely in case you're wrong.
2. A CT non-con shouldn't have been ordered. That's inexcusable. I can see how a PA/NP with only 2 weeks of clinical experience can make this mistake as a human but it's inferior care. Most decent hospitals would take the decision is out of the hands of the ED and this would go straight from EMT to ICU. I blame the infrastructure that allowed this patient to just sit in the ED with the pretest probability for an obstructive PE as high as it was.
3. That meth fact is actually interesting and I didn't know it. Maybe I'm stupid.. I can't speak for others, but I would venture a guess that it's not something every board certified physician would know. I googled "Positive Methamphetamine Negative Amphetamine", clicked this link. Differentiating Medicinal from Illicit Use in Positive Methamphetamine Results in a Pain Population. Case 5 seems close to what's being discussed. Thanks for the useful information. Next time I look at a UDS, I'll see if MAM and AMP are both reported.

Worst of all, the director of the ABIM's opinion (unlike mine) carries weight and he shouldn't even be on social media making these comments independently without thorough knowledge into the background of the situation... Speaking about medical mistakes, what about administrative mistakes? Like isn't not commenting on controversial situations when you're in a leadership position Admin 101?
It's a system failure TBH, but one thing I have to say is that NPs seem to be 'braver' than docs. I am about to be a BC IM physician in a few weeks. I was trained in the biggest academic center in my state; I am about to start a hospitalist gig at a community hospital and I am already ****ting in my pants that I might harm someone if I miss something that is significant. That is [effing] brave for an NP that graduated with 500-700 hrs preceptorship to accept to be a solo provider in an ED.
 
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It's a system failure TBH, but one thing I have to say is that NPs seem to be 'braver' than docs. I am about to be a BC IM physician in a few weeks. I was trained in the biggest academic center in my state; I am about to start a hospitalist gig at a community hospital and I am already ****ting in my pants that I might harm someone if I miss something that is significant. That is [effing] brave for an NP that graduated with 500-700 hrs preceptorship to accept to be a solo provider in an ED.
“Brave” is not the descriptor I would use here.
 
“Brave” is not the descriptor I would use here.
What would you call it then?

I don't know any MS3 who would dare taking on a solo ED 4-5 months into clerkship.
 
I think it should be criminal for administrators to hire people for a job that they know these people are not equip to do.
 
I think it should be criminal for administrators to hire people for a job that they know these people are not equip to do.
Administrators are more likely to run for political office and win. They're practically immune to prosecution
 
I had an NP precept me some day. They loved to talk about "the nursing difference" because she googled an assistive device for a patient in the office. Every doctor there had to mention at least five times how brilliant the NP was and how they were the smartest person in the office.

The NP wasn't really a bad preceptor or unkind. Though I did find the way actual physicians tiptoed around them to be absolutely simpering. It feels like doctors seem almost embarrassed to say they're a physician as if they fell into it by accident and somehow didn't earn the position except by happy coincidence.
 
I had an NP precept me some day. They loved to talk about "the nursing difference" because she googled an assistive device for a patient in the office. Every doctor there had to mention at least five times how brilliant the NP was and how they were the smartest person in the office.

The NP wasn't really a bad preceptor or unkind. Though I did find the way actual physicians tiptoed around them to be absolutely simpering. It feels like doctors seem almost embarrassed to say they're a physician as if they fell into it by accident and somehow didn't earn the position except by happy coincidence.
So many physicians really like to sabotage their own profession. It's tragic.
 
I had an NP precept me some day. They loved to talk about "the nursing difference" because she googled an assistive device for a patient in the office. Every doctor there had to mention at least five times how brilliant the NP was and how they were the smartest person in the office.

The NP wasn't really a bad preceptor or unkind. Though I did find the way actual physicians tiptoed around them to be absolutely simpering. It feels like doctors seem almost embarrassed to say they're a physician as if they fell into it by accident and somehow didn't earn the position except by happy coincidence.
That is so pathetic and disgusting. Those physicians are an embarrassment to the profession.
 
That is so pathetic and disgusting. Those physicians are an embarrassment to the profession.
...and they should be stoned... and not in the California sense of this word... lolz

But in all seriousness - this is today's social climate. If a physician says something - they're entitled, arrogant, etc.
 
And after reading this I stand corrected. WTH is a crushed sternum.
Heart of a nurse brain of a doctor
I had an NP precept me some day. They loved to talk about "the nursing difference" because she googled an assistive device for a patient in the office. Every doctor there had to mention at least five times how brilliant the NP was and how they were the smartest person in the office.

The NP wasn't really a bad preceptor or unkind. Though I did find the way actual physicians tiptoed around them to be absolutely simpering. It feels like doctors seem almost embarrassed to say they're a physician as if they fell into it by accident and somehow didn't earn the position except by happy coincidence.
why is your school allowing nps as preceptors?

100% unacceptable
 
Heart of a nurse brain of a doctor

why is your school allowing nps as preceptors?

100% unacceptable
No idea. Its a "one of the good DO schools" too. Will chalk it up to rotations being slim due to COVID...
 
...and they should be stoned... and not in the California sense of this word... lolz

But in all seriousness - this is today's social climate. If a physician says something - they're entitled, arrogant, etc.
F that! We earn our title/degree; we could have taken the easy (easiest) path. I am not gonna let anyone call me a 'provider'
 
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