NP to MD

[rdonahue87]

So I know this comes up rather often but I wanted to hear the opinion of people who I think will be honest rather than talking on a nursing-oriented site where they'll tell me I'm great and can do whatever I want.


So first, my history:


I grew up my whole life wanting to be a doctor. I remember being as young as 5th grade saying I was going to grow up to be an anesthesiologist. I was a fantastic high school student and easily had well over a 4.0 without any effort whatsoever and got into all 3 universities that I applied to (UC Davis, Cal, and UCLA). I took plenty of community college and AP classes in high school so I assumed real college would be more of the same. I ended up going to UCLA and failed to adjust to a real academic setting and failed miserably....well practically. I ended up graduating in 3 years with a rather useless BA in Psychology and an atrocious 2.78 GPA. I took all the required pre-med classes but didn't bother to take the MCAT as I knew I was woefully underqualified to get admitted to anywhere.

I decided since medicine was out, I should instead focus on nursing. I applied at the local community college, got accepted, and quite easily graduated with a near 4.00. I then decided to get a BSN at a state school and once again graduated with a 4.00. After talking with a bunch of nurses I was tricked into believing that an NP was basically the same thing as a doctor so I went to NP school at the closest Cal State school to my house and graduated as an FNP with a 4.00 without even trying.

As I began practicing as an NP, I realized I felt woefully underprepared and feel I refer far too many patients to specialists than is probably necessary because I have not adequately been trained to treat them. While I am able to do many of the things the MD in my practice does, the occasional thing I cannot due is rather disheartening (last week I had a patient that needed someone to sign off on their diabetic footwear, NPs in California cannot do this).

I decided that because my BA is in psychology and most of my nursing career I have been working in a psych hospital, perhaps being a psych NP would be a better fit for me so I applied to (and was accepted) to a rather well-regarded PMHNP program (top 5 online master's nursing program in the country according to USNews). I have not yet graduated, but to my dismay, I continue to feel this training is woefully inadequate compared to what a psychiatrist would do (our entire clinical rotation is 504 hours - only 336 of which are with a psychiatrist or PMHNP, the rest are with an MSW/LMFT).

The more I progress as a nurse practitioner the more disheartening the profession becomes. I am sick of wasting classroom time debating whether an NP and physician are equal (hint: they are not) and learning about Florence Nightingale for the 500th time.

I am currently working as an RN in a psych hospital, a primary care provider / FNP at a local primary care clinic, and I am also working as a telehealth NP prescribing sexual dysfunction medications and hair loss meds. I am also about to start yet another position doing physicals for the VA. I make a very good living ($20-25k/month) but I can't help but feel there must be more to life than prescribing Viagra from my couch and referring patients to specialists. I also have no student loans so I am financially quite secure.


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Now, my dilemma:

Despite everything going on, I have never given up that dream of being a doctor (i.e., a physician - not a DNP or some other nurse "doctor").

Unfortunately I have two very huge things working against me:
I am 33 years old (34 next month)
I have a 2.78 GPA at UCLA with a science GPA that is about the same.

So I have some questions/thoughts/concerns:

Obviously my current resume is terrible and no med school would accept me as-is. I am willing to make an effort to enhance my resume, but do not know if this is actually possible.

The only university near me (Cal Poly SLO) does NOT accept second bachelor's students and does NOT allow students to take classes for personal enrichment. I am very hesitant to leave my current career to do a post-BACC program without any guarantee that I will be accepted to a med school somewhere.

Is it safe to assume taking prerequisites at a community college would serve no purpose whatsoever? I took 2nd semester organic chemistry with lab and easily obtained an A (this was 10 years ago, however).

I graduated from UCLA in 2008. Does this coursework even count?

In the age of COVID would retaking prerequisites from an actual university online be of any value?

It appears med schools want letters of recommendation. I can easily get them from physicians but there is 0 chance a professor at UCLA would write one for me as I was a mediocre student and graduated 13 years ago. Is it safe to assume a letter from an NP professor would be of no value?

While my UCLA GPA of 2.78 is atrocious, my cumulative GPA of everything I have ever taken is 3.41with a post-bac GPA of 3.82 (and a graduate level GPA of 4.00). Even though these courses are mostly in nursing / nurse practitioner coursework, would this be of any positive value?

My goal is to be admitted to an MD or DO school based anywhere in the United States. I am not willing to go to the Caribbean and I am not willing to go to a foreign country (other than maybe Canada but they almost never accept American students so this isn't really an option). There is a relatively new DO school in Fresno which would probably be high on my list of theoretically realistic goal schools as it is relatively close to my home. I would prefer the MD route but again, this is probably an even steeper uphill climb.

As mentioned earlier, I have no outstanding student loan debt. I am in the process of buying a new home while keeping my current home. If I am able to get into medical school my plan would be to sell my current home and use the equity to pay for med school while renting out the home I am trying to buy. I know that working during med school is highly discouraged, but my telehealth job is asynchronous and completely mindless so working 10 hours a week from home seems potentially feasible to pay for living expenses.

Any advice would be very much appreciated. I have other things I was going to add, but I have already rambled on for a very long time. I realize this is my first post so if anyone would like to PM me, I would be happy to provide evidence that I am actually a practicing nurse practitioner and not someone trying to start an NP vs MD/DO debate.

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[gramnegative]

Which pre-reqs have you taken? Some formal post-baccs won't accept students who have taken any med school pre-reqs already, while some schools may not accept them due to how long ago you took them. Does your cpga include your graduate classes? Adcoms are most concerned with your undergraduate gpa, since many master's programs have inflated grades. If your cpga is just your undergraduate courses, it is close to mine, though my pre-reqs were pretty much all A's, and I am an RN having a successful cycle with MD schools.

Your clinical experience will speak for itself, but admission committees will be concerned about how much you have jumped around in terms of interest, why you are making the jump now, and whether you will be teachable. However, a successful application does not just consist of grades and clinical experience - you also need non-clinical volunteering, LORs, and a good MCAT score (especially if you arw shooting for MD schools), all wrapped up in a compelling narrative describing why you should become a doctor.

 

[rdonahue87]

Which pre-reqs have you taken? Some formal post-baccs won't accept students who have taken any med school pre-reqs already, while some schools may not accept them due to how long ago you took them. Does your cpga include your graduate classes? Adcoms are most concerned with your undergraduate gpa, since many master's programs have inflated grades. If your cpga is just your undergraduate courses, it is close to mine, though my pre-reqs were pretty much all A's, and I am an RN having a successful cycle with MD schools.

Your clinical experience will speak for itself, but admission committees will be concerned about how much you have jumped around in terms of interest, why you are making the jump now, and whether you will be teachable. However, a successful application does not just consist of grades and clinical experience - you also need non-clinical volunteering, LORs, and a good MCAT score (especially if you arw shooting for MD schools), all wrapped up in a compelling narrative describing why you should become a doctor.

I have taken 1 year of English, 1 year of Bio, 1 year of general chem with lab, 1 year of organic chemistry (no lab), and 2 quarters of physics all at UCLA. I also took 1 semester of organic chemistry with lab at a community college but I would assume that is of little value.

The GPA listed (3.41) includes graduate coursework. Excluding graduate coursework my GPA is 3.33.

In terms of the jumping around you mention, I can certainly see how this would seem to be a concern. I never really felt like I was jumping around. I won't go into huge detail here as it's not particularly interesting but basically, I wanted to be a psychiatrist hence the psychology major. Once that didn't work I went to RN school and worked at a psych hospital as a psych RN. I did FNP before PMHNP because the local (relatively speaking, still a 2 hour drive) NP program required an FNP and then had a post-master's PMHNP add on. I did the FNP there and they disbanded their PMHNP program so I am now enrolled in a different post-master's program. While this does seems like a lot of jumping around, I would justify it because at least they're all health-related fields as opposed to doing something like going to architecture school, then business school, now med school. Again, you aren't the person I ultimately have to convince so I'm just speaking candidly without developing a more formal response.

My other concern is the LORs you mentioned. I honestly have no idea where I could get these. My administrative supervisors seem like a very poor option because while they would write a good one, my ability to be a good nurse does not seem relevant to being a med student. Likewise, my collaborating physicians would also be happy to write one. While these may be slightly more helpful in the sense that they are physicians and therefore more qualified to evaluate my potential as a physician, they are still evaluating me as an NP, not pre-physician. I haven't been at a prestigious university in a dozen years, I was a mediocre student, and had no relationship withy my professors there. They aren't gong to write me a letter and even if I somehow convinced one to (assuming they're even still there) they wouldn't have any recollection of me as a student and the letter would be quite generic and of little value. Perhaps the only saving grace to any of this is the collaborating physician I have the closest relationship with was a non-traditional MD student. She went to Cal and majored in nutrition sciences and then obtained an MPH. After doing that type of work she eventually switched to MD and went to UCLA Medical School at around age 30. This was in the 1980s so things were obviously different then.

 

[Dral]

I think you'll be able to get your GPA straightened out. It's already ok for DO schools. As long as you prep correctly hopefully your MCAT score won't be a problem. I'd say you should probably shoot for letters from your physician colleagues. While I interview candidates for residency/fellowship and not med school, I think I would look at your app, see you worked with physicians, and wonder why you didn't have LoRs from them. I might even think it was a little fishy that you didn't ("Is this person difficult to work with for some reason and they don't have a good relationship with their physician colleagues...hence no LoRs from them?")

 

[RangerBob]

$20-25k is a great salary. Many MDs won’t make that. Personally I might keep that and enjoy the SLO life-it’s such a great place to live.

Your pre-recs are likely too old—I think you’d have to retake them all. You could just take them at Cuesta if Cal Poly won’t allow you to do open enrollment. Community college courses aren’t as preferable but plenty of my non-read classmates took community college courses as there was no alternative.

Keep in mind that you’d likely have 1-2 years of coursework/MCAT studying, maybe another year for the application cycle depending how you time things. Plus four years of med school (and the accompanying debt), and then at least three years of residency. So it’s a decent journey and you just have to ask yourself how bad you want things.

SLO County is pretty underserved, so if you’re a psych NP you’ll have no problem finding work. Maybe it’d be better to be a psychiatrist, but an alternative is be the best psych NP you can be and deliver quality patient care. You seem to understand the limits of NP vs MD/DO, and you sound like a great self-learner, so I think you could do quite well if you continue your current route.

 

[Drsecondchance]

I wish I had more time to respond, but I just wanted to first mention that your prereqs are not too old. I took Gen Chem 1 in 1999, then all the other prereqs shortly after, and have received 1 MD and 9 DO acceptances this cycle so far (21 interview invitations). There are a handful of schools you'd need to cross off your list, but most won't care as long as you rock the MCAT. As per your science and cumulative gpas, all of your credits get averaged in together for a final cgpa, in addition to a separate only undergrad GPA, so as long as you have fixed the problems and continue to excel in classes now, you're going to be fine.The prereqs at a community college is also not a problem. They definitely count for all but maybe 2 schools across the country. You will need at least 2 science professor letters or recommendation, but I used my MPH professors in more science heavy courses (1 taught Immunology, the other Epidemiology) and that was also not a problem for me, but if you don't have letter writers that would fit from your most recent work, you might consider retaking a couple prereqs for letters. I didn't notice Biochemistry on your list, which would need to be taken at a university, so that's a good one to consider. If it's in person, go sit in the front row, stay after class, and build a relationship with your professor. If it's online, email your professor and ask for a few face-to-face virtual meetings and still build a relationship with them. It probably is a good idea to have at least one physician letter from a physician colleague in addition to your professors. Finally, I'm 37 and will be 38 when I start school this year. I'm a former science teacher. I really doubt that if you tell your story well, you'll leave many questions for adcoms that would make them run away from you. You sound like a great candidate and your clinical work history is going to impress people, so please stop calling it worthless. Whether it's worth it to give up your salary to go to med school or not is up to you. For me, there was a huge void in my life that I finally realized could only be filled by the fulfillment of my lifelong dream to be a physician, so I went for it.

 

[andrek82]

I wish I had more time to respond, but I just wanted to first mention that your prereqs are not too old. I took Gen Chem 1 in 1999, then all the other prereqs shortly after, and have received 1 MD and 9 DO acceptances this cycle so far (21 interview invitations). There are a handful of schools you'd need to cross off your list, but most won't care as long as you rock the MCAT. As per your science and cumulative gpas, all of your credits get averaged in together for a final cgpa, in addition to a separate only undergrad GPA, so as long as you have fixed the problems and continue to excel in classes now, you're going to be fine.The prereqs at a community college is also not a problem. They definitely count for all but maybe 2 schools across the country. You will need at least 2 science professor letters or recommendation, but I used my MPH professors in more science heavy courses (1 taught Immunology, the other Epidemiology) and that was also not a problem for me, but if you don't have letter writers that would fit from your most recent work, you might consider retaking a couple prereqs for letters. I didn't notice Biochemistry on your list, which would need to be taken at a university, so that's a good one to consider. If it's in person, go sit in the front row, stay after class, and build a relationship with your professor. If it's online, email your professor and ask for a few face-to-face virtual meetings and still build a relationship with them. It probably is a good idea to have at least one physician letter from a physician colleague in addition to your professors. Finally, I'm 37 and will be 38 when I start school this year. I'm a former science teacher. I really doubt that if you tell your story well, you'll leave many questions for adcoms that would make them run away from you. You sound like a great candidate and your clinical work history is going to impress people, so please stop calling it worthless. Whether it's worth it to give up your salary to go to med school or not is up to you. For me, there was a huge void in my life that I finally realized could only be filled by the fulfillment of my lifelong dream to be a physician, so I went for it.

I think this response is very important. For the doubters above, I know several NPs easily pulling in as much if not more of an income than physicians. If you are willing to put in the work the income will come. This means that this can/will not be about income. If you make the jump this needs to be about your own fulfillment. I made the jump from research and it was the right call. In terms of requirements, I would reach out to local admissions offices and see what they say. At the worst you might need a post bacc for 1 to 2 years to tighten up pre reqs. And absolutely agree with above posters that physician colleagues should write LoRs.

 

[rdonahue87]

I think you'll be able to get your GPA straightened out. It's already ok for DO schools. As long as you prep correctly hopefully your MCAT score won't be a problem. I'd say you should probably shoot for letters from your physician colleagues. While I interview candidates for residency/fellowship and not med school, I think I would look at your app, see you worked with physicians, and wonder why you didn't have LoRs from them. I might even think it was a little fishy that you didn't ("Is this person difficult to work with for some reason and they don't have a good relationship with their physician colleagues...hence no LoRs from them?")

In terms of no current letters of recommendation, I could easily get them from physician colleagues. I haven't yet as I'm not ready to apply and LORs are a cumbersome request for anyone so I don't want to ask for a letter that will be outdated by the time I need it. If and when the time comes, I have no doubt I could get a physician to write a letter for me.

New account. Makes 20-25k/month doing easy work - as you describe it. I could be wrong but this does feel like a troll post. Doctors don't bring that much home without busting ass. Lots of med students these days would kill for a gig like this. Tons of the IG/Youtube "Influencers" wish they could have a good stream of income so they can quit medicine and be like Dr. Kevin Jubball or Ali Abdaal or what have you.

If you would like I would be happy to PM you and tell you my name and link you a copy of my online license verification. In terms of my income I work 3 jobs (granted only 1 is full-time) and work probably 80 hours a week. So no, I am not making $250,000 a year on a 40 hour a week schedule. I've never worked worked only 40 hours a week in my life and I'm not sure what I would do if I had that much free time.

I worked full-time (40-60 hours a week) the entire time I was in RN school even though working at all was highly discouraged. NP school was less demanding than RN school so I increased my working hours to 60-80 hours a week and am now averaging about 80 per week while still enrolled in a post-master's program.

 

[rdonahue87]

$20-25k is a great salary. Many MDs won’t make that. Personally I might keep that and enjoy the SLO life-it’s such a great place to live.

Your pre-recs are likely too old—I think you’d have to retake them all. You could just take them at Cuesta if Cal Poly won’t allow you to do open enrollment. Community college courses aren’t as preferable but plenty of my non-read classmates took community college courses as there was no alternative.

Keep in mind that you’d likely have 1-2 years of coursework/MCAT studying, maybe another year for the application cycle depending how you time things. Plus four years of med school (and the accompanying debt), and then at least three years of residency. So it’s a decent journey and you just have to ask yourself how bad you want things.

SLO County is pretty underserved, so if you’re a psych NP you’ll have no problem finding work. Maybe it’d be better to be a psychiatrist, but an alternative is be the best psych NP you can be and deliver quality patient care. You seem to understand the limits of NP vs MD/DO, and you sound like a great self-learner, so I think you could do quite well if you continue your current route.

Well if community college courses are even somewhat useful, I think I should enroll in them rather soon. The only prereq I ever took at community college was the second semester of organic chemistry which I would say ranks amongst the more challenging of the prereqs. I got an A (not A-, just an A) so while that one good grade doesn't prove much of anything, I think it shows that I have at least some potential to do well in school. I would say 95% of my RN/NP colleagues have never taken organic chemistry (or even general chemistry) and I would doubt that half could do well in that course.



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I guess based on the responses so far this isn't a completely impossible proposition. Let's say hypothetically I spend some time, take some classes, improve my resume somewhat, and do moderately acceptable on the MCAT (505-510?) could that position me with a reasonable chance at acceptance to a lower-end MD/DO school. Assuming I enrolled in said school and did somewhere in the middle of the class, would that position me in a place to reasonably expect to match in a specialty like psychiatry?

One last bit of information that is of probably little relevance, I am a fairly good standardized test taker. I have never taken the MCAT, but I took the GRE a few years ago and scored above average in every section including the 98th percentile for analytical writing. Obviously the GRE and MCAT are very different tests, but I should also add that outside of reading the wikipedia article on the GRE the night before the test, I did not study at all which is not the approach I would take for the MCAT.

 

[RangerBob]

Well if community college courses are even somewhat useful, I think I should enroll in them rather soon. The only prereq I ever took at community college was the second semester of organic chemistry which I would say ranks amongst the more challenging of the prereqs. I got an A (not A-, just an A) so while that one good grade doesn't prove much of anything, I think it shows that I have at least some potential to do well in school. I would say 95% of my RN/NP colleagues have never taken organic chemistry (or even general chemistry) and I would doubt that half could do well in that course.

Orgo is a tough course. I remember it.

It sounds like others think your classes may not be expired. Your undergrad GPA at UCLA is very low for medicine, but I missed that you had a second bachelors and got a 4.0 there. So that's great. If your classes really aren't expired then I'm not sure there's any benefit to re-taking them. You could ask a few med school admission committees. You're in a rather unique situation, so I don't actually know whether you should go back and re-take the pre-reqs for a better grade, or not. But, I can say that taking those classes is good preparation for the MCAT. I took gen chem over a summer, and then bio/physics/ochem all at the same time, and took the MCAT two weeks later. Everything was still very fresh and I didn't feel the need to do much additional studying (just practice tests) since I had A/s'A-'s in all those courses and was essentially studying for the MCAT all year. That may be a reason to re-take the courses--to have a more structured MCAT review.

If you're really working 80hrs/week then that does sound brutal. I'm happy with my ~40hrs/week and MD salary. Only you can say if it's worth going back to school/med school/residency. There's a financial decision to be made there, but it's really a judgement call. The real decision is a personal one, and that's one only you can answer.

 

[Drsecondchance]

Orgo is a tough course. I remember it.

It sounds like others think your classes may not be expired. Your undergrad GPA at UCLA is very low for medicine, but I missed that you had a second bachelors and got a 4.0 there. So that's great. If your classes really aren't expired then I'm not sure there's any benefit to re-taking them. You could ask a few med school admission committees. You're in a rather unique situation, so I don't actually know whether you should go back and re-take the pre-reqs for a better grade, or not. But, I can say that taking those classes is good preparation for the MCAT. I took gen chem over a summer, and then bio/physics/ochem all at the same time, and took the MCAT two weeks later. Everything was still very fresh and I didn't feel the need to do much additional studying (just practice tests) since I had A/s'A-'s in all those courses and was essentially studying for the MCAT all year. That may be a reason to re-take the courses--to have a more structured MCAT review.

If you're really working 80hrs/week then that does sound brutal. I'm happy with my ~40hrs/week and MD salary. Only you can say if it's worth going back to school/med school/residency. There's a financial decision to be made there, but it's really a judgement call. The real decision is a personal one, and that's one only you can answer.

I disagree that it's necessary to retake the courses for the MCAT. I used Coursesaver and Khan Academy videos for my content review and did just fine not having had my prereqs for many years.

In terms of what MCAT score the OP needs, 500 - 510 will get you into DO schools and SOME MD depending on other factors, but 510+ would maximize chances of it being MD rather than DO.

 

[RangerBob]

I disagree that it's necessary to retake the courses for the MCAT. I used Coursesaver and Khan Academy videos for my content review and did just fine not having had my prereqs for many years.

In terms of what MCAT score the OP needs, 500 - 510 will get you into DO schools and SOME MD depending on other factors, but 510+ would maximize chances of it being MD rather than DO.

I simply meant retaking the courses could also be helpful as MCAT studying, not that they're necessary. If the OP is a self-starter review courses should be fine. But if there is a benefit to re-taking the courses so the grades are more recent (and better than what he/she obtained the first time around), then there's a secondary benefit regarding the MCAT.

 

[Osminog]

It sounds like going to medical school would be a pretty bad idea in your case. You’re working as a healthcare provider and making a physician salary. If you feel like you’d be more fulfilled if you had a more comprehensive/in-depth understanding of medicine, you can independently self-study any topic/specialty you want through online medical school study resources. Get a copy of First Aid, the Merck Manual, specialty-specific textbooks/pocket guides, etc., and read to your heart’s content.

 

[rdonahue87]

Orgo is a tough course. I remember it.

It sounds like others think your classes may not be expired. Your undergrad GPA at UCLA is very low for medicine, but I missed that you had a second bachelors and got a 4.0 there. So that's great. If your classes really aren't expired then I'm not sure there's any benefit to re-taking them. You could ask a few med school admission committees. You're in a rather unique situation, so I don't actually know whether you should go back and re-take the pre-reqs for a better grade, or not. But, I can say that taking those classes is good preparation for the MCAT. I took gen chem over a summer, and then bio/physics/ochem all at the same time, and took the MCAT two weeks later. Everything was still very fresh and I didn't feel the need to do much additional studying (just practice tests) since I had A/s'A-'s in all those courses and was essentially studying for the MCAT all year. That may be a reason to re-take the courses--to have a more structured MCAT review.

If you're really working 80hrs/week then that does sound brutal. I'm happy with my ~40hrs/week and MD salary. Only you can say if it's worth going back to school/med school/residency. There's a financial decision to be made there, but it's really a judgement call. The real decision is a personal one, and that's one only you can answer.

So, I did get a second bachelor's but it was not at an elite school like UCLA, but rather a state school nobody has ever really heard of (Minot State University). I did get a 4.00 there but my classes were all in nursing an an elective statistics course that I took in order to complete the minimum number of units required for graduation.

Speaking of working hours. I hinted at this previously and I know this is getting way ahead of myself, but....

From what I understand, med students are very, very highly discouraged form working. I have a telehealth job that allows me to work whenever I want for however long I want (literally I can log in for 3 minutes and get paid for 3 minutes) that also pays reasonably decent ($65/hr). This is much different than picking up a job like waiting tables or something like that. Would it be reckless to say I could find 75 minutes of free time daily to log into my computer and do this job? I understand med school is much more intense than anything I've ever done, but I can't imagine people don't have some spare time here and there to watch TV, play video games, and do other things that have nothing to do with med school.

It sounds like going to medical school would be a pretty bad idea in your case. You’re working as a healthcare provider and making a physician salary. If you feel like you’d be more fulfilled if you had a more comprehensive/in-depth understanding of medicine, you can independently self-study any topic/specialty you want through online medical school study resources. Get a copy of First Aid, the Merck Manual, specialty-specific textbooks/pocket guides, etc., and read to your heart’s content.

This is a dilemma I've been trying to tackle. While I think a main reason people would make a move like this is for financial benefit and you are correct in that long-term this is unlikely to be fiscally rewarding. Likewise, barring something very unanticipated, I will almost certainly end up with a residency in primary care or psychiatry which would basically have me doing the same job I am already doing with very little else.

I think a large part of my thinking here has to do with pride, and I'm not sure that's a good enough reason. I've worked with a few physicians who were truly awful. One in particular comes to mind (he was licensed, but not board eligible which probably says a lot) who was one of the most incompetent people I have ever met in my mind. The fact that he would boss me around is very upsetting because there is no way he is smarter than me. I'm not even sure I can concede he is better at medicine than me. He would ask me questions quite often because I was a "newer grad" and he had "forgotten" but they were appallingly basic for a family care physician (is lorazepam a pain med? is it a controlled substance? is it sedating? what is a good broad-spectrum antibiotic for my patient with a UTI since they report an allergy to fluoroquinolones?)

For fun I spent a few minutes on the USMLE website last night and looked at their practice step 1 and step 3 tests. I only looked at a few questions but this was also very depressing. While I certainly learned things remotely related to these topics, there is zero chance I could come even close to passing that test.

 

[RangerBob]

So, I did get a second bachelor's but it was not at an elite school like UCLA, but rather a state school nobody has ever really heard of (Minot State University). I did get a 4.00 there but my classes were all in nursing an an elective statistics course that I took in order to complete the minimum number of units required for graduation.

Speaking of working hours. I hinted at this previously and I know this is getting way ahead of myself, but....

From what I understand, med students are very, very highly discouraged form working. I have a telehealth job that allows me to work whenever I want for however long I want (literally I can log in for 3 minutes and get paid for 3 minutes) that also pays reasonably decent ($65/hr). This is much different than picking up a job like waiting tables or something like that. Would it be reckless to say I could find 75 minutes of free time daily to log into my computer and do this job? I understand med school is much more intense than anything I've ever done, but I can't imagine people don't have some spare time here and there to watch TV, play video games, and do other things that have nothing to do with med school.

I don't think working during M1/2 and parts of M4 is unreasonable. I preferred to have my free time. Most days I had at least an hour of free time--but I also didn't gun for ortho/derm (doesn't sound like would be either). I don't recall us every being discouraged from working, but I also don't know anyone that did. And half my friends were on welfare as kids and were living entirely off their loans. But, more was at stake for them as well, so the trade off of making a few extra bucks and having less time to study probably wasn't worth it for them, considering the big payday you get if you become an MD/DO.

My mentor worked as a med student--he was an ER scribe. I would not count on it though--maybe you really need that extra study time. Or maybe your school doesn't allow you to work. But maybe you can make it work--still, I would make your decision with the assumption you're not getting those extra funds. If you go to med school and end up having the free time to do it, that's great.

 

[DO2015CA]

75 mins every single day prob not. But 75 mins most days yes. But remember to take care of yourself. The difference between you working and the examples you used is that those are leisure things. Med school is a damn grind. If you have that 1-2 hours per day you need to carve out leisure activities for wellness so you don’t go insane.

 

[rdonahue87]

75 mins every single day prob not. But 75 mins most days yes. But remember to take care of yourself. The difference between you working and the examples you used is that those are leisure things. Med school is a damn grind. If you have that 1-2 hours per day you need to carve out leisure activities for wellness so you don’t go insane.

This is about what I would have expected. Again, this particular job is very different that a more typical job. I often do this job on my laptop sitting in pajamas with my feet up watching TV so it not requiring much thought. Most of the work is explaining potential side effects of finasteride to patients or answering rather basic questions about sexual dysfunction meds. This job also has a phone app so if I am standing in line at Taco Bell or something like that I can make a few dollars while I wait.


-------------

But I guess back to the real issue. It sounds like there may at least be a feasible path for what I am proposing. My biggest concern remains the LOR. These have always been the bane of my existence for every program I have ever applied to as I can't see how they can help an application (how could you possibly submit a LOR that was anything but stellar) but often require a fair amount of effort to obtain. Everyone I have ever asked to provide one for me has but I always feel like it is a burden for them to have to do this. Likewise, I have been asked to provide them for people on multiple occasions and I always oblige, but often find it quite stressful to come up with a letter than I think will help serve their needs.

Every program I have looked at wants a letter from a science professor. This seems quite difficult for me because I don't know how to get such a thing. Even in NP school we go through many different professors and never really develop a very meaningful relationship with any of them. Even if a med school would accept this letter, I have a hard time believing an NP instructor would want to write it as they spend have the curriculum lecturing us why going to med school is a complete waste of time.

I also noticed several of you have talked about community service and clinical experience. Again, I do not want to imply that my being an FNP is equivalent to being a physician, but I feel that trying to shadow a physician somewhere for hundreds (or even a thousand?) of hours is unlikely to offer significant insight when I have spent literally 15,000 hours working a paid healthcare role.

I also am under the impression med schools value serving underserved areas. While I do not consider my community rural (my town has about 30,000 residents) I think it is actually designated as such. Furthermore my FNP job is at a Federally Qualified Healthcare Center (FQHC) so I would assume that's better than working at a concierge clinic (no offense to those that do)?

 

[DO2015CA]

This is about what I would have expected. Again, this particular job is very different that a more typical job. I often do this job on my laptop sitting in pajamas with my feet up watching TV so it not requiring much thought. Most of the work is explaining potential side effects of finasteride to patients or answering rather basic questions about sexual dysfunction meds. This job also has a phone app so if I am standing in line at Taco Bell or something like that I can make a few dollars while I wait.


-------------

But I guess back to the real issue. It sounds like there may at least be a feasible path for what I am proposing. My biggest concern remains the LOR. These have always been the bane of my existence for every program I have ever applied to as I can't see how they can help an application (how could you possibly submit a LOR that was anything but stellar) but often require a fair amount of effort to obtain. Everyone I have ever asked to provide one for me has but I always feel like it is a burden for them to have to do this. Likewise, I have been asked to provide them for people on multiple occasions and I always oblige, but often find it quite stressful to come up with a letter than I think will help serve their needs.

Every program I have looked at wants a letter from a science professor. This seems quite difficult for me because I don't know how to get such a thing. Even in NP school we go through many different professors and never really develop a very meaningful relationship with any of them. Even if a med school would accept this letter, I have a hard time believing an NP instructor would want to write it as they spend have the curriculum lecturing us why going to med school is a complete waste of time.

I also noticed several of you have talked about community service and clinical experience. Again, I do not want to imply that my being an FNP is equivalent to being a physician, but I feel that trying to shadow a physician somewhere for hundreds (or even a thousand?) of hours is unlikely to offer significant insight when I have spent literally 15,000 hours working a paid healthcare role.

I also am under the impression med schools value serving underserved areas. While I do not consider my community rural (my town has about 30,000 residents) I think it is actually designated as such. Furthermore my FNP job is at a Federally Qualified Healthcare Center (FQHC) so I would assume that's better than working at a concierge clinic (no offense to those that do)?

I think you are fine for applying as long as you fix your gpa and have a good mcat. Your crappy UCLA gpa was 13 years ago. I would say that if you are worried, taking science courses at full time and acing them would put an Adcoms mind at rest. People change. 13 years is a hellavuh long time to mature. The only question would be do you have the prerequisite knowledge needed to go into med school. That can be shown by a good mcat +/- redoing prereq courses.

No one inherently hates NPs so your experiences will hold value when it comes to applying. They are not completely different career paths after all.

For shadowing, it’s really to make sure the premed knows what they are getting themselves into. You, as a practicing midlevel know what the medical field is like. You shadowing for hundreds of hours would be a waste of time. You just need to be able to articulate that NP and physicians are different and you want to be a physician. You have good reasons as to why you want to be a physician. Number 1 being the depth of knowledge. If you can articulate that without crapping on the NP field then I think that essay/interview would be really well received.

As for working at an FQHC, that’s great experience. I would much rather that than a premed with 1000 hours of volunteering at a hospital pushing patients around.

 

[rdonahue87]

I think you are fine for applying as long as you fix your gpa and have a good mcat. Your crappy UCLA gpa was 13 years ago. I would say that if you are worried, taking science courses at full time and acing them would put an Adcoms mind at rest. People change. 13 years is a hellavuh long time to mature. The only question would be do you have the prerequisite knowledge needed to go into med school. That can be shown by a good mcat +/- redoing prereq courses.

No one inherently hates NPs so your experiences will hold value when it comes to applying. They are not completely different career paths after all.

For shadowing, it’s really to make sure the premed knows what they are getting themselves into. You, as a practicing midlevel know what the medical field is like. You shadowing for hundreds of hours would be a waste of time. You just need to be able to articulate that NP and physicians are different and you want to be a physician. You have good reasons as to why you want to be a physician. Number 1 being the depth of knowledge. If you can articulate that without crapping on the NP field then I think that essay/interview would be really well received.

As for working at an FQHC, that’s great experience. I would much rather that than a premed with 1000 hours of volunteering at a hospital pushing patients around.

I really appreciate the feedback I've been getting and I must say it's not what I've expected. Lurking around this site I've always appreciated that nobody seems to sugar coat things an give unreal expectations (i.e., I'm 60 years old dropped out of high school and working on GED thinking of going premed and my last felony was 5 years ago....obviously not happening).

I want to make this transition but if I can't I can be content with what I have. I'm willing to put in a reasonable amount of effort to set myself up for this and I'm willing to make the lifestyle changes if I got into a med school, but not before. I talked to some people on the side that suggest I quit all my jobs, sell my houses, move away, and spend the next couple years going full-time retaking all the prerequisite courses and also adding an MS in something like biochemistry. While I could do that, I am not willing to sacrifice my entire life's work and move away for a pipe dream. If I did that and got accepted to nowhere and did nothing but add a second master's degree that would serve no purpose at all, I'm not sure I could ever forgive myself for such an effort.

------

Another question. Since retaking some prereqs will help me prepare for the MCAT and since community college is better than not at all, is it worth taking some community college science classes even if they are online? I know online courses are highly frowned upon but I was looking at the course catalog at the local community college and ALL of their science classes are online with a few of them having in person labs. This is rather appealing to me. Again, I am willing to make enormous life changes IF I'm in med school, but I am NOT willing to do so until then as my current lifestyle is pretty good. Hopefully that doesn't make me sound less-than-serious but I think for an early-to-mid-30's non-traditional applicant, a sense of realism is necessary rather than just going all-in. This is also a web forum so I don't think being extra candid is necessarily a bad thing and that is obviously not the approach I would take when interacting with a prospective med school.

 

[PikminOC]

In terms of no current letters of recommendation, I could easily get them from physician colleagues. I haven't yet as I'm not ready to apply and LORs are a cumbersome request for anyone so I don't want to ask for a letter that will be outdated by the time I need it. If and when the time comes, I have no doubt I could get a physician to write a letter for me.



If you would like I would be happy to PM you and tell you my name and link you a copy of my online license verification. In terms of my income I work 3 jobs (granted only 1 is full-time) and work probably 80 hours a week. So no, I am not making $250,000 a year on a 40 hour a week schedule. I've never worked worked only 40 hours a week in my life and I'm not sure what I would do if I had that much free time.

I worked full-time (40-60 hours a week) the entire time I was in RN school even though working at all was highly discouraged. NP school was less demanding than RN school so I increased my working hours to 60-80 hours a week and am now averaging about 80 per week while still enrolled in a post-master's program.

That shows you how watered down the education is that you can work so much and still be in school

 

[Drsecondchance]

I really appreciate the feedback I've been getting and I must say it's not what I've expected. Lurking around this site I've always appreciated that nobody seems to sugar coat things an give unreal expectations (i.e., I'm 60 years old dropped out of high school and working on GED thinking of going premed and my last felony was 5 years ago....obviously not happening).

I want to make this transition but if I can't I can be content with what I have. I'm willing to put in a reasonable amount of effort to set myself up for this and I'm willing to make the lifestyle changes if I got into a med school, but not before. I talked to some people on the side that suggest I quit all my jobs, sell my houses, move away, and spend the next couple years going full-time retaking all the prerequisite courses and also adding an MS in something like biochemistry. While I could do that, I am not willing to sacrifice my entire life's work and move away for a pipe dream. If I did that and got accepted to nowhere and did nothing but add a second master's degree that would serve no purpose at all, I'm not sure I could ever forgive myself for such an effort.

------

Another question. Since retaking some prereqs will help me prepare for the MCAT and since community college is better than not at all, is it worth taking some community college science classes even if they are online? I know online courses are highly frowned upon but I was looking at the course catalog at the local community college and ALL of their science classes are online with a few of them having in person labs. This is rather appealing to me. Again, I am willing to make enormous life changes IF I'm in med school, but I am NOT willing to do so until then as my current lifestyle is pretty good. Hopefully that doesn't make me sound less-than-serious but I think for an early-to-mid-30's non-traditional applicant, a sense of realism is necessary rather than just going all-in. This is also a web forum so I don't think being extra candid is necessarily a bad thing and that is obviously not the approach I would take when interacting with a prospective med school.

Specific to taking online community college prereqs, I would strongly urge you to check with the schools you would be most interested in and see whether they would accept those courses (but they may have no problem with it since you are retaking those courses to refresh yourself and don't need the credit). In this time of COVID, they probably won't care that lectures are online anyway, but still check. Honestly, this is 100% doable if you want to do it. There's nothing holding you back, you do NOT need to quit your life to get this done, but you do need to think creatively about what courses to take to get letters of recommendation, as well as how to prepare for the MCAT. I would strongly suggest self-studying rather than a prep course, as that allows you to rush through the things you know best and work slowly through things you study with. That's how I managed to pull off my 516, not as great as some around here, but not too shabby for a then 36 year old nontrad who last saw chemistry 20 years prior. If you're ready to do this, stop telling yourself you can't and go for it!

 

[rdonahue87]

Specific to taking online community college prereqs, I would strongly urge you to check with the schools you would be most interested in and see whether they would accept those courses (but they may have no problem with it since you are retaking those courses to refresh yourself and don't need the credit). In this time of COVID, they probably won't care that lectures are online anyway, but still check. Honestly, this is 100% doable if you want to do it. There's nothing holding you back, you do NOT need to quit your life to get this done, but you do need to think creatively about what courses to take to get letters of recommendation, as well as how to prepare for the MCAT. I would strongly suggest self-studying rather than a prep course, as that allows you to rush through the things you know best and work slowly through things you study with. That's how I managed to pull off my 516, not as great as some around here, but not too shabby for a then 36 year old nontrad who last saw chemistry 20 years prior. If you're ready to do this, stop telling yourself you can't and go for it!

Just for curiosity's sake, how do med schools know if you take a class online vs in person? I have taken lots of classes online at schools that offer the class both online and in person. Nowhere on the transcript does it say "online content" or anything like that. Granted, before COVID most online classes were things like humanities and other subjects that worked very well in an online format and lab courses were never offered online.

Also, how heavily do the schools penalize you for retaking courses? I would assume someone that has 3 F's in organic chemistry followed with an A is less desirable than someone that got a B+ in their only attempt.

Likewise, if I remember correctly repeated attempts at the MCAT is not looked at favorably? In high school I think I took the SAT 3 times because colleges didn't care. It didn't serve much purpose as my score barely changed, but I did see a slight improvement each time. Obviously the MCAT is not a fun test to take but having a "pretest" version to get a better idea as to how far I need to go every few months seems like something that may be worth doing unless this is something that is discouraged.

 

[RangerBob]

Just for curiosity's sake, how do med schools know if you take a class online vs in person? I have taken lots of classes online at schools that offer the class both online and in person. Nowhere on the transcript does it say "online content" or anything like that. Granted, before COVID most online classes were things like humanities and other subjects that worked very well in an online format and lab courses were never offered online.

Also, how heavily do the schools penalize you for retaking courses? I would assume someone that has 3 F's in organic chemistry followed with an A is less desirable than someone that got a B+ in their only attempt.

Likewise, if I remember correctly repeated attempts at the MCAT is not looked at favorably? In high school I think I took the SAT 3 times because colleges didn't care. It didn't serve much purpose as my score barely changed, but I did see a slight improvement each time. Obviously the MCAT is not a fun test to take but having a "pretest" version to get a better idea as to how far I need to go every few months seems like something that may be worth doing unless this is something that is discouraged.

I don’t think they know it’s online unless the transcript specified it or if you took the courses at an online school. I took two online courses in undergrad from my main institution and it wasn’t clear anywhere on the transcript that they were online.

 

[rdonahue87]

I don’t think they know it’s online unless the transcript specified it or if you took the courses at an online school. I took two online courses in undergrad from my main institution and it wasn’t clear anywhere on the transcript that they were online.

I really do wonder that. My BSN program was completely online. The transcript doesn't say this anywhere but it's pretty obvious it must have been online if it was taken in North Dakota and was working in California at the same time. Likewise, my current PMHNP program is 100% online through the University of Cincinnati but this also looks the same as if I took the class in person on the transcript.

I think some of the UC's (University of California, not University of Cincinnati) or CSUs offer online science classes. These would theoretically be feasible to commute to if they were in person so it wouldn't be quite as obvious that they were taken online. They are of course vastly more expensive than the community college route but university courses are almost certainly a better option I would assume, even for a repeat?

 

[zamba]

I will also be your age when I start. I am coming from Ph.D. to M.D. It can be done and it has been done in the past.

 

[pharmacist.throwaway]

I will also be your age when I start. I am coming from Ph.D. to M.D. It can be done and to has been done in the past.

Curious OP, is there family in the picture...because that is an important part of this plan.

 

[zamba]

Curious OP, is there family in the picture...because that is an important part of this plan.

I know. I am currently single and I have accepted the fact that I may not be able to have a family.

 

[zamba]

I know. I am currently single and I have accepted the fact that I may not be able to have a family.

But, I feel that I am single either way at this point. I am considering freezing my eggs.

 

[DO2015CA]

I know. I am currently single and I have accepted the fact that I may not be able to have a family.

I don’t think med school would stop that anyway. I had female classmates where they had kids during 3rd and 4th year.

 

[rdonahue87]

Curious OP, is there family in the picture...because that is an important part of this plan.

So this is a valid point. While the idea of having a family may appeal to me, this has never really felt like something I had planned on. I won't go into tons of irrelevant details about my personal life but this just doesn't seem like something I plan on doing. However, my father was 45 when I was born and I am the oldest child so if I followed his family path, I would be about 45 when I finish residency so I could theoretically copy him (I am male as that is obviously relevant to this point).

I think I have decided I should at least pursue doing some MCAT preparation. I'm going to start adding a few pre-med science (and maybe English) classes at the local college as this seems relatively simple to do. From talking to everyone here my plan here seems at least plausible.

I don't want to start a huge DO vs MD debate as I always considered either option suitable for my plans, but some of the threads I've seen here have me at least somewhat concerned that there are a lot of new DO schools but not a lot of new residencies. I would hate to go through all this effort and then end up a DO without a match as that doesn't really put me in a much better position than I'm already in. Do residency spots seem to be more difficult for DOs now than they were 5-10 years ago?

I think I would rather do MD anywhere in the US/Puerto Rico and would probably limit my DO search to California/AZ/OR/WA/NV. I'm not sure it would make a huge difference but I am (almost) fluent in Spanish which is a useful skill considering my family ancestry is mostly Irish/English. I don't think it counts, but my dad was born in Puerto Rico so if that helps me for a Puerto Rican MD school it may be worth noting. My dad lived there a few weeks and was not otherwise Puerto Rican so I think it's quite a hard sell that I'm in any way tied to Puerto Rico.

Another question (sorry, I can't stop thinking about all this). I'm currently in a PMHNP program. Since I'm leaning towards psychiatry I would assume finishing this program would make more sense than not finishing? I have about a year left and I won't be ready to take the MCAT for at least 6-12 months so I don't see how dropping this program would really benefit me and if I score a 480 on the MCAT this would be a decent thing to fall back on.

Also, as I have hinted at before, psychiatry is my most likely target match. From what I understand this is a fairly feasible specialty to match in from both the DO/MD route as a non-traditional student? I am intrigued by the clinical rotations because I have essentially no exposure to any specialty areas and if there are any less competitive specialty areas that I end up enjoying I could sort of see myself trying for that as well.

 

[gramnegative]

Are there no Cal State schools nearby that you can take some upper division bio classes at? That'd be a good way to show your ability to handle the curriculum and get some LORs from professors. I would really work on your narrative regarding 'why', especially in a way that isn't disparaging to midlevels and avoids criticizing past doctors that you have worked with, since that can come across as arrogant. While this is more aimed at MD graduates, the following link can help you determine what you will need to do to match in each specialty: Charting Outcomes in the Match:Senior Students of U.S. MD Medical Schools. Psychiatry is neither the most competitive nor the least specialty to match into.

 

[drducky.]

So this is a valid point. While the idea of having a family may appeal to me, this has never really felt like something I had planned on. I won't go into tons of irrelevant details about my personal life but this just doesn't seem like something I plan on doing. However, my father was 45 when I was born and I am the oldest child so if I followed his family path, I would be about 45 when I finish residency so I could theoretically copy him (I am male as that is obviously relevant to this point).

I think I have decided I should at least pursue doing some MCAT preparation. I'm going to start adding a few pre-med science (and maybe English) classes at the local college as this seems relatively simple to do. From talking to everyone here my plan here seems at least plausible.

I don't want to start a huge DO vs MD debate as I always considered either option suitable for my plans, but some of the threads I've seen here have me at least somewhat concerned that there are a lot of new DO schools but not a lot of new residencies. I would hate to go through all this effort and then end up a DO without a match as that doesn't really put me in a much better position than I'm already in. Do residency spots seem to be more difficult for DOs now than they were 5-10 years ago?

I think I would rather do MD anywhere in the US/Puerto Rico and would probably limit my DO search to California/AZ/OR/WA/NV. I'm not sure it would make a huge difference but I am (almost) fluent in Spanish which is a useful skill considering my family ancestry is mostly Irish/English. I don't think it counts, but my dad was born in Puerto Rico so if that helps me for a Puerto Rican MD school it may be worth noting. My dad lived there a few weeks and was not otherwise Puerto Rican so I think it's quite a hard sell that I'm in any way tied to Puerto Rico.

Another question (sorry, I can't stop thinking about all this). I'm currently in a PMHNP program. Since I'm leaning towards psychiatry I would assume finishing this program would make more sense than not finishing? I have about a year left and I won't be ready to take the MCAT for at least 6-12 months so I don't see how dropping this program would really benefit me and if I score a 480 on the MCAT this would be a decent thing to fall back on.

Also, as I have hinted at before, psychiatry is my most likely target match. From what I understand this is a fairly feasible specialty to match in from both the DO/MD route as a non-traditional student? I am intrigued by the clinical rotations because I have essentially no exposure to any specialty areas and if there are any less competitive specialty areas that I end up enjoying I could sort of see myself trying for that as well.

I would’t worry about not being able to get a residency spot if you get into a DO school.

Although if I were you, i’d take the 200k+ salary as a NP and enjoy life, travel, etc instead of grinding away 7+ years of life just to have more autonomy.

 

[rdonahue87]

Are there no Cal State schools nearby that you can take some upper division bio classes at? That'd be a good way to show your ability to handle the curriculum and get some LORs from professors. I would really work on your narrative regarding 'why', especially in a way that isn't disparaging to midlevels and avoids criticizing past doctors that you have worked with, since that can come across as arrogant. While this is more aimed at MD graduates, the following link can help you determine what you will need to do to match in each specialty: Charting Outcomes in the Match:Senior Students of U.S. MD Medical Schools. Psychiatry is neither the most competitive nor the least specialty to match into.

There is one University (Cal Poly - SLO) that is near my house (25-30 minute drive) but they will NOT accept any students looking for a 2nd bachelor's or personal enrichment course. The only way I can take upper division courses there is to get accepted to a master's program. My BA is in Psychology so the only master's program they would probably entertain is psychology. I can't imagine upper division psychology courses would impress a med school committee?

Outside of this, Cal State Bakersfield, Fresno State, San Jose State, UCSB, and UC Merced are all about 2-2.5 hours away by car.

I agree that narrative is a fine line. Basically I want to do something more meaningful and the NP role doesn't quite get there. I'm currently multi-tasking between responding to this message and discussing Viagra with a 24-year-old who probably just needs a little psychological help instead of sildenafil and I think the physician route is more likely to provide what I'm after. I've wanted to be a physician since before junior high and I just can't get it out of my head. I also hate the fact that I almost did everything right - I went to an elite university straight out of high school but I panicked trying to be alone and on my own in a huge city and wasn't quite ready at age 18-21 to do it right. I've rarely (if ever) met another midlevel that went to an elite university out of high school or has any desire to go to med school - they're all quite content. If I can't be, maybe it's the wrong choice for me?

I would’t worry about not being able to get a residency spot if you get into a DO school.

Although if I were you, i’d take the 200k+ salary as a NP and enjoy life, travel, etc instead of grinding away 7+ years of life just to have more autonomy.

I can't complain about my life and I totally see your point. I think at this point I have nothing to lose than at least going through all the efforts and seeing what happens. I suppose if I do this and the only school I get accepted to is some very low-end school in a location that sounds awful maybe I can reevaluate and decide it's a bad idea.

I think if nothing else I have to at least try. If I make an honest effort for the next year or so and end up with a 490 MCAT then at least I can say I gave it one last shot, did all the steps, and gave it my best. The "what if" has tormented me for the last dozen years. Yeah, my UCLA grades were awful, but maybe I would have had a great MCAT and with a year or so of grade boosting after graduation I could have been a good candidate. I didn't take the test and I'll forever wonder.

The travel thing sounds nice, but an 8 year break might be nice from that as that's what I've spent a lot of my free money on the last decade or so while traveling to all 50 states and 50+ countries. My collaborating physician has never traveled east of Kansas City, MO so my lifestyle isn't all bad.

 

[drducky.]

There is one University (Cal Poly - SLO) that is near my house (25-30 minute drive) but they will NOT accept any students looking for a 2nd bachelor's or personal enrichment course. The only way I can take upper division courses there is to get accepted to a master's program. My BA is in Psychology so the only master's program they would probably entertain is psychology. I can't imagine upper division psychology courses would impress a med school committee?

Outside of this, Cal State Bakersfield, Fresno State, San Jose State, UCSB, and UC Merced are all about 2-2.5 hours away by car.

I agree that narrative is a fine line. Basically I want to do something more meaningful and the NP role doesn't quite get there. I'm currently multi-tasking between responding to this message and discussing Viagra with a 24-year-old who probably just needs a little psychological help instead of sildenafil and I think the physician route is more likely to provide what I'm after. I've wanted to be a physician since before junior high and I just can't get it out of my head. I also hate the fact that I almost did everything right - I went to an elite university straight out of high school but I panicked trying to be alone and on my own in a huge city and wasn't quite ready at age 18-21 to do it right. I've rarely (if ever) met another midlevel that went to an elite university out of high school or has any desire to go to med school - they're all quite content. If I can't be, maybe it's the wrong choice for me?





I can't complain about my life and I totally see your point. I think at this point I have nothing to lose than at least going through all the efforts and seeing what happens. I suppose if I do this and the only school I get accepted to is some very low-end school in a location that sounds awful maybe I can reevaluate and decide it's a bad idea.

I think if nothing else I have to at least try. If I make an honest effort for the next year or so and end up with a 490 MCAT then at least I can say I gave it one last shot, did all the steps, and gave it my best. The "what if" has tormented me for the last dozen years. Yeah, my UCLA grades were awful, but maybe I would have had a great MCAT and with a year or so of grade boosting after graduation I could have been a good candidate. I didn't take the test and I'll forever wonder.

The travel thing sounds nice, but an 8 year break might be nice from that as that's what I've spent a lot of my free money on the last decade or so while traveling to all 50 states and 50+ countries. My collaborating physician has never traveled east of Kansas City, MO so my lifestyle isn't all bad.

You sound smart and you’ve done well since your undergrad messup so I’m sure you can get in and match into a residency. But you have to make sure it’s really what you want because you’re giving up a lot.

Best of luck in whatever path you choose.

 

[rdonahue87]

You sound smart and you’ve done well since your undergrad messup so I’m sure you can get in and match into a residency. But you have to make sure it’s really what you want because you’re giving up a lot.

Best of luck in whatever path you choose.

I appreciate that. Thank you. My persistent thought is even though I've done things since my undergrad messup, maybe I haven't actually improved anything. Even though I've added a second bachelor's, a master's, and taken tons of classes for no reason other than to ease my boredom, none of these classes were even remotely difficult while pretty much everything I did at UCLA seemed difficult. Either the big name university really is that much harder or maybe the only classes that count are the only ones that are too hard for me (although I'm not sure this is completely accurate as I very easily got an A in 2nd semester Ochecm at a junior college despite a C- in the first semester version at UCLA).

And yeah, I would be giving up a lot and I think that's why I would be at least a little picky. I know when you're up against the ropes, being selective isn't a good idea, but there's zero chance I would even consider a foreign medical school (and probably out of state DO school) because what I have right now is a pretty good fall back.

The other thing I would really like to stop dealing with is having to hear several patients a day say to me "you're basically a doctor" or refuse to call me by my first name and instead insist on "Doctor" even after I tell them over and over that this is not accurate. I've thought about getting a DNP just because it would be something to do, but I really don't think it's smart to introduce one's self as a doctor if you have a DNP. I suppose if you were that concerned you could say something like "Hi, my name is Ryan and I am a nurse practitioner with a doctorate in nursing" but that never happens.

 

[DO2015CA]

I would not worry about not getting a residency at a DO. Its an unfounded fear

 

[Drsecondchance]

I appreciate that. Thank you. My persistent thought is even though I've done things since my undergrad messup, maybe I haven't actually improved anything. Even though I've added a second bachelor's, a master's, and taken tons of classes for no reason other than to ease my boredom, none of these classes were even remotely difficult while pretty much everything I did at UCLA seemed difficult. Either the big name university really is that much harder or maybe the only classes that count are the only ones that are too hard for me (although I'm not sure this is completely accurate as I very easily got an A in 2nd semester Ochecm at a junior college despite a C- in the first semester version at UCLA).

And yeah, I would be giving up a lot and I think that's why I would be at least a little picky. I know when you're up against the ropes, being selective isn't a good idea, but there's zero chance I would even consider a foreign medical school (and probably out of state DO school) because what I have right now is a pretty good fall back.

The other thing I would really like to stop dealing with is having to hear several patients a day say to me "you're basically a doctor" or refuse to call me by my first name and instead insist on "Doctor" even after I tell them over and over that this is not accurate. I've thought about getting a DNP just because it would be something to do, but I really don't think it's smart to introduce one's self as a doctor if you have a DNP. I suppose if you were that concerned you could say something like "Hi, my name is Ryan and I am a nurse practitioner with a doctorate in nursing" but that never happens.

Keep an open mind. Some of the best DO schools are in other states, like CCOM, AZCOM, MSUCOM, TCOM, KCUCOM, KCOM, UNECOM, etc. You can afford to be picky, but don't let being picky make you stay in state at a new DO school over going out of state somewhere stronger.

 

[Ultimax]

Kudo to you for thinking of going back to medical school. I am an NP myself and currently MS1, I started MD school at age 34 so I understand your motivation and your frustration with NP training. It is not an understatement to say that you and your patients will benefit greatly by going to medical school . I am still practicing as an NP during school (part-time, only 6 hours per week) at a family medicine clinic and rounding with a Nephrologist at a hospital, and I am very happy with how much my medical knowledge has expanded since then. I feel that my supervising physician treats me differently now that I am a medical student, he seems to go much deeper into pathophysiology (or maybe its my delusion). I am able to understand much more about basic medical sciences concepts, things that I will never be able to learn. DO or MD schools do not matter to some extent depending on which specialty you desire, but what truly matters is your attitude in medical school. I feel that being an older medical student give me an advantage somewhat, as I deal with uncertainties with a calm manner, and sometimes my classmates look up to me just because I have background as an ICU nurse. I help teach them do phlebotomy, suturing, and other stuffs. Money is not everything (I truly believe your were making more 200k as I was making 160k), and at our age, we dont have much time left. I told myself that I would rather try getting into medical school and fail, so I know that I have attempted to pursue something that I dream of, than not doing it at all. Good luck to you in your journey, and please feel free to email me if there is anything I can do to help!

 

[zamba]

Kudo to you for thinking of going back to medical school. I am an NP myself and currently MS1, I started MD school at age 34 so I understand your motivation and your frustration with NP training. It is not an understatement to say that you and your patients will benefit greatly by going to medical school . I am still practicing as an NP during school (part-time, only 6 hours per week) at a family medicine clinic and rounding with a Nephrologist at a hospital, and I am very happy with how much my medical knowledge has expanded since then. I feel that my supervising physician treats me differently now that I am a medical student, he seems to go much deeper into pathophysiology (or maybe its my delusion). I am able to understand much more about basic medical sciences concepts, things that I will never be able to learn. DO or MD schools do not matter to some extent depending on which specialty you desire, but what truly matters is your attitude in medical school. I feel that being an older medical student give me an advantage somewhat, as I deal with uncertainties with a calm manner, and sometimes my classmates look up to me just because I have background as an ICU nurse. I help teach them do phlebotomy, suturing, and other stuffs. Money is not everything (I truly believe your were making more 200k as I was making 160k), and at our age, we dont have much time left. I told myself that I would rather try getting into medical school and fail, so I know that I have attempted to pursue something that I dream of, than not doing it at all. Good luck to you in your journey, and please feel free to email me if there is anything I can do to help!

Did you have children before med school?

 

[Ultimax]

Did you have children before med school?

I have 2 kids (5 years old and 2 years old)

 

[zamba]

I have 2 kids (5 years old and 2 years old)

That's amazing! Has it been hard to manage everything?

 

[mommieofthree]

So I know this comes up rather often but I wanted to hear the opinion of people who I think will be honest rather than talking on a nursing-oriented site where they'll tell me I'm great and can do whatever I want.


So first, my history:


I grew up my whole life wanting to be a doctor. I remember being as young as 5th grade saying I was going to grow up to be an anesthesiologist. I was a fantastic high school student and easily had well over a 4.0 without any effort whatsoever and got into all 3 universities that I applied to (UC Davis, Cal, and UCLA). I took plenty of community college and AP classes in high school so I assumed real college would be more of the same. I ended up going to UCLA and failed to adjust to a real academic setting and failed miserably....well practically. I ended up graduating in 3 years with a rather useless BA in Psychology and an atrocious 2.78 GPA. I took all the required pre-med classes but didn't bother to take the MCAT as I knew I was woefully underqualified to get admitted to anywhere.

I decided since medicine was out, I should instead focus on nursing. I applied at the local community college, got accepted, and quite easily graduated with a near 4.00. I then decided to get a BSN at a state school and once again graduated with a 4.00. After talking with a bunch of nurses I was tricked into believing that an NP was basically the same thing as a doctor so I went to NP school at the closest Cal State school to my house and graduated as an FNP with a 4.00 without even trying.

As I began practicing as an NP, I realized I felt woefully underprepared and feel I refer far too many patients to specialists than is probably necessary because I have not adequately been trained to treat them. While I am able to do many of the things the MD in my practice does, the occasional thing I cannot due is rather disheartening (last week I had a patient that needed someone to sign off on their diabetic footwear, NPs in California cannot do this).

I decided that because my BA is in psychology and most of my nursing career I have been working in a psych hospital, perhaps being a psych NP would be a better fit for me so I applied to (and was accepted) to a rather well-regarded PMHNP program (top 5 online master's nursing program in the country according to USNews). I have not yet graduated, but to my dismay, I continue to feel this training is woefully inadequate compared to what a psychiatrist would do (our entire clinical rotation is 504 hours - only 336 of which are with a psychiatrist or PMHNP, the rest are with an MSW/LMFT).

The more I progress as a nurse practitioner the more disheartening the profession becomes. I am sick of wasting classroom time debating whether an NP and physician are equal (hint: they are not) and learning about Florence Nightingale for the 500th time.

I am currently working as an RN in a psych hospital, a primary care provider / FNP at a local primary care clinic, and I am also working as a telehealth NP prescribing sexual dysfunction medications and hair loss meds. I am also about to start yet another position doing physicals for the VA. I make a very good living ($20-25k/month) but I can't help but feel there must be more to life than prescribing Viagra from my couch and referring patients to specialists. I also have no student loans so I am financially quite secure.


----------

Now, my dilemma:

Despite everything going on, I have never given up that dream of being a doctor (i.e., a physician - not a DNP or some other nurse "doctor").

Unfortunately I have two very huge things working against me:
I am 33 years old (34 next month)
I have a 2.78 GPA at UCLA with a science GPA that is about the same.

So I have some questions/thoughts/concerns:

Obviously my current resume is terrible and no med school would accept me as-is. I am willing to make an effort to enhance my resume, but do not know if this is actually possible.

The only university near me (Cal Poly SLO) does NOT accept second bachelor's students and does NOT allow students to take classes for personal enrichment. I am very hesitant to leave my current career to do a post-BACC program without any guarantee that I will be accepted to a med school somewhere.

Is it safe to assume taking prerequisites at a community college would serve no purpose whatsoever? I took 2nd semester organic chemistry with lab and easily obtained an A (this was 10 years ago, however).

I graduated from UCLA in 2008. Does this coursework even count?

In the age of COVID would retaking prerequisites from an actual university online be of any value?

It appears med schools want letters of recommendation. I can easily get them from physicians but there is 0 chance a professor at UCLA would write one for me as I was a mediocre student and graduated 13 years ago. Is it safe to assume a letter from an NP professor would be of no value?

While my UCLA GPA of 2.78 is atrocious, my cumulative GPA of everything I have ever taken is 3.41with a post-bac GPA of 3.82 (and a graduate level GPA of 4.00). Even though these courses are mostly in nursing / nurse practitioner coursework, would this be of any positive value?

My goal is to be admitted to an MD or DO school based anywhere in the United States. I am not willing to go to the Caribbean and I am not willing to go to a foreign country (other than maybe Canada but they almost never accept American students so this isn't really an option). There is a relatively new DO school in Fresno which would probably be high on my list of theoretically realistic goal schools as it is relatively close to my home. I would prefer the MD route but again, this is probably an even steeper uphill climb.

As mentioned earlier, I have no outstanding student loan debt. I am in the process of buying a new home while keeping my current home. If I am able to get into medical school my plan would be to sell my current home and use the equity to pay for med school while renting out the home I am trying to buy. I know that working during med school is highly discouraged, but my telehealth job is asynchronous and completely mindless so working 10 hours a week from home seems potentially feasible to pay for living expenses.

Any advice would be very much appreciated. I have other things I was going to add, but I have already rambled on for a very long time. I realize this is my first post so if anyone would like to PM me, I would be happy to provide evidence that I am actually a practicing nurse practitioner and not someone trying to start an NP vs MD/DO debate.

Hi,

Well, you are I are quite similar except I was a PA in the ED for 16 yrs prior to returning to medical school. It sounds like our paths back to training are for the same reasons.

I had great grades, but they were considered “out of date”. Regardless, I think its the same as having a <3.0.

Don’t downplay your clinical experience. It will help you a lot, especially on clinical rotations. However, I can tell you that after my experience trying to get into medical school, its likely you will need to repeat some undergraduate level 4 + courses or just rock the MCAT. DO programs are more likely to consider your application. I recommend reaching out to the schools you are interested to see what they think the deficits are in your application before you apply. Don’t assume you know what those deficits are. It will save you a lot of time and heartache.

Going the DO is not a bad option, I’m having a great time and learning a lot. I took both USMLE and Comlex and did fine. There is another PA in my class that is as “experienced” as me and we have 2 others in the class below me, and I think another entering. There are PA and NP friendly programs out there, but you have to seek them out and might have to move from your state. Its a big sacrifice, but you can get there if you really want it.

Your instincts are correct. Being a NP/PA is not the same as being a doctor. I know plenty of PAs who have their doctoral degree and many NPs that have their doctoral degrees. These degrees do not have a primary focus on the pathophysiology of disease, which is why you feel unprepared sometimes. You learn a little but not enough. They focus on the other aspects of medicine that are not clinically based, but are important in the regards to the care of the patient.

Many hospitals are looking to replace physicians with NPs/PAs to pay less money, as they are relying on algorithms to guide the treatment of patients. 75% of physicians are employees of hospitals now, which is a huge swing from past practice. Their job security is more vulnerable now than ever before. I think may allied health professionals believe the idea because hospitals are making these swinging employment changes that means they are equal and that hospitals admin respect them. They don’t respect physicians, so why would they respect someone who is less medically trained. Its just about finding a “cheaper” monkey to plug into the schedule and has nothing to do with quality of patient care. So, if you want to be a stronger provider, go back to school and pave a way into real independent practice. But, if you just want some reassurance, stay where you are as you will likely have job security for a long time. You will just get beat down with patient volume loads by demanding hospital admin who will eventually focus on how to pay you less money, just like they do to physicians.

One doc told me, the practice of medicine is like a pendulum...it will start to swing back towards focus on the care of the patient. I really believe in the long term, patients will demand better care and outcomes and I don’t think “independent” allied health professional of any stripe will be able to completely meet that demand as each field is constantly growing, and at a rapid pace. There is just too much to know and having a strong foundation is the sciences is key to moving forward. Also, standardized residency training is very important which is not really provided in our current professions. Residency is where students really learn to be a doctor.

My current profession allowed me to develop my love of medicine and paid me well. However, I wanted to grow clinically and felt like I hit a ceiling. Maybe you feel the same way? I’ve had the privledge of working with amazing PA/NPs who are clinically very strong, but I grew to notice the large disparity in clinical practice as not all mid levels are created equal, and the clinical disparity amongst physicians was less apparent. You don’t have to be super smart to be doctor, but the training is more extensive and allows for a better understanding of what is going on with the patient.

Good luck on your decision...hope I provided another perspective! If I can do it, you can do it!

 

[petomed]

So I know this comes up rather often but I wanted to hear the opinion of people who I think will be honest rather than talking on a nursing-oriented site where they'll tell me I'm great and can do whatever I want.


So first, my history:


I grew up my whole life wanting to be a doctor. I remember being as young as 5th grade saying I was going to grow up to be an anesthesiologist. I was a fantastic high school student and easily had well over a 4.0 without any effort whatsoever and got into all 3 universities that I applied to (UC Davis, Cal, and UCLA). I took plenty of community college and AP classes in high school so I assumed real college would be more of the same. I ended up going to UCLA and failed to adjust to a real academic setting and failed miserably....well practically. I ended up graduating in 3 years with a rather useless BA in Psychology and an atrocious 2.78 GPA. I took all the required pre-med classes but didn't bother to take the MCAT as I knew I was woefully underqualified to get admitted to anywhere.

I decided since medicine was out, I should instead focus on nursing. I applied at the local community college, got accepted, and quite easily graduated with a near 4.00. I then decided to get a BSN at a state school and once again graduated with a 4.00. After talking with a bunch of nurses I was tricked into believing that an NP was basically the same thing as a doctor so I went to NP school at the closest Cal State school to my house and graduated as an FNP with a 4.00 without even trying.

As I began practicing as an NP, I realized I felt woefully underprepared and feel I refer far too many patients to specialists than is probably necessary because I have not adequately been trained to treat them. While I am able to do many of the things the MD in my practice does, the occasional thing I cannot due is rather disheartening (last week I had a patient that needed someone to sign off on their diabetic footwear, NPs in California cannot do this).

I decided that because my BA is in psychology and most of my nursing career I have been working in a psych hospital, perhaps being a psych NP would be a better fit for me so I applied to (and was accepted) to a rather well-regarded PMHNP program (top 5 online master's nursing program in the country according to USNews). I have not yet graduated, but to my dismay, I continue to feel this training is woefully inadequate compared to what a psychiatrist would do (our entire clinical rotation is 504 hours - only 336 of which are with a psychiatrist or PMHNP, the rest are with an MSW/LMFT).

The more I progress as a nurse practitioner the more disheartening the profession becomes. I am sick of wasting classroom time debating whether an NP and physician are equal (hint: they are not) and learning about Florence Nightingale for the 500th time.

I am currently working as an RN in a psych hospital, a primary care provider / FNP at a local primary care clinic, and I am also working as a telehealth NP prescribing sexual dysfunction medications and hair loss meds. I am also about to start yet another position doing physicals for the VA. I make a very good living ($20-25k/month) but I can't help but feel there must be more to life than prescribing Viagra from my couch and referring patients to specialists. I also have no student loans so I am financially quite secure.


----------

Now, my dilemma:

Despite everything going on, I have never given up that dream of being a doctor (i.e., a physician - not a DNP or some other nurse "doctor").

Unfortunately I have two very huge things working against me:
I am 33 years old (34 next month)
I have a 2.78 GPA at UCLA with a science GPA that is about the same.

So I have some questions/thoughts/concerns:

Obviously my current resume is terrible and no med school would accept me as-is. I am willing to make an effort to enhance my resume, but do not know if this is actually possible.

The only university near me (Cal Poly SLO) does NOT accept second bachelor's students and does NOT allow students to take classes for personal enrichment. I am very hesitant to leave my current career to do a post-BACC program without any guarantee that I will be accepted to a med school somewhere.

Is it safe to assume taking prerequisites at a community college would serve no purpose whatsoever? I took 2nd semester organic chemistry with lab and easily obtained an A (this was 10 years ago, however).

I graduated from UCLA in 2008. Does this coursework even count?

In the age of COVID would retaking prerequisites from an actual university online be of any value?

It appears med schools want letters of recommendation. I can easily get them from physicians but there is 0 chance a professor at UCLA would write one for me as I was a mediocre student and graduated 13 years ago. Is it safe to assume a letter from an NP professor would be of no value?

While my UCLA GPA of 2.78 is atrocious, my cumulative GPA of everything I have ever taken is 3.41with a post-bac GPA of 3.82 (and a graduate level GPA of 4.00). Even though these courses are mostly in nursing / nurse practitioner coursework, would this be of any positive value?

My goal is to be admitted to an MD or DO school based anywhere in the United States. I am not willing to go to the Caribbean and I am not willing to go to a foreign country (other than maybe Canada but they almost never accept American students so this isn't really an option). There is a relatively new DO school in Fresno which would probably be high on my list of theoretically realistic goal schools as it is relatively close to my home. I would prefer the MD route but again, this is probably an even steeper uphill climb.

As mentioned earlier, I have no outstanding student loan debt. I am in the process of buying a new home while keeping my current home. If I am able to get into medical school my plan would be to sell my current home and use the equity to pay for med school while renting out the home I am trying to buy. I know that working during med school is highly discouraged, but my telehealth job is asynchronous and completely mindless so working 10 hours a week from home seems potentially feasible to pay for living expenses.

Any advice would be very much appreciated. I have other things I was going to add, but I have already rambled on for a very long time. I realize this is my first post so if anyone would like to PM me, I would be happy to provide evidence that I am actually a practicing nurse practitioner and not someone trying to start an NP vs MD/DO debate.

You are making $240,000 to $300,000 per year right now as a NP. Sure, there are some limitations to your practice capabilities right now. But NP's will only gain more independence as time goes on. You mentioned that you feel inadequately trained right now compared to a doctor. That will never go away. It's like the M.S. student who compares themselves to a PhD. However, in five years you will have found your groove and likewise hashed out the boundaries of your capabilities. You will get better at your job, just like everyone else, as you accumulate more experience. Considering you've found your way into what must be the 95th percentile of salary at your age with your education and that you are already "practically" a doctor, I would not recommend pursuing medicine unless you feel you honestly have no other possible way to be happy with your life.

But if you do pursue medicine, I wouldn't do more than you have to. The intangibles portion of your resume is likely already taken care of because of your being a practicing NP. Take any pre-req's you're missing. Study really hard and nail the MCAT. I would only re-take outdated coursework if you knew all the schools you were applying to required it, or if you are certain your application will be screened out due to a low cumulative GPA.

 

[rdonahue87]

Hi,

Well, you are I are quite similar except I was a PA in the ED for 16 yrs prior to returning to medical school. It sounds like our paths back to training are for the same reasons.

I recommend reaching out to the schools you are interested to see what they think the deficits are in your application before you apply. Don’t assume you know what those deficits are. It will save you a lot of time and heartache.


My current profession allowed me to develop my love of medicine and paid me well. However, I wanted to grow clinically and felt like I hit a ceiling. Maybe you feel the same way? I’ve had the privledge of working with amazing PA/NPs who are clinically very strong, but I grew to notice the large disparity in clinical practice as not all mid levels are created equal, and the clinical disparity amongst physicians was less apparent. You don’t have to be super smart to be doctor, but the training is more extensive and allows for a better understanding of what is going on with the patient.

You brought up two points I especially want to discuss.

You mentioned reaching out to prospective MD/DO programs. Is this something as simple as sending an email and talking to them? Maybe I'm naïve, but I've never done anything like this for any program as I always assume the response will be something like "our requirements are clearly outlined. Apply and we'll let you know if we're interested". Like I've said before I don't have to go back to school but I want to at least consider it. If I reach out to a bunch of schools that I would consider reasonably plausible and they tell me something like I have zero chance at admission or success, that would be rather helpful.

You also talked about hitting a ceiling and job security and what not. This is probably my own fault, but one of my biggest problems is my only full-time job I don't even work as an NP, but rather a psych RN at a very large hospital. I despite this job but it offers tremendous flexibility in terms of scheduling, it pays okay (much less than my NP jobs) but also offer fantastic benefits plus a pension. If I went back to med school and became a physician, I could eventually work there which would substantially boost my pension as it based exclusively on your highest base salary (and not your average salary). I often think of quitting that job but I'm an actual employee (no 1099's) so I know it is safe. I have 2-3 other positions right now which seem relatively secure, but they are all based on productivity and this method of compensation scares me a bit.

Perhaps part of my problem is I'm just a "career student". I have never had any student debt but even when there is no apparent reason to be enrolled in college courses I take things just because For some reason unbeknown to me, I am currently working on an AA in film studies from a community college in Santa Barbara. I have also considered applying for an ENP (Emergency Nurse Practitioner) or MPH program just because I feel like at my age I can't be done with formal growth and learning. Med school would obviously be a substantial improvement from the aforementioned options, but I'm not sure that's a good reason (at least on paper).

The intangibles portion of your resume is likely already taken care of because of your being a practicing NP.

I often wonder about this. Talking to doctors (as in actual physicians) I get very varying responses as to what value an NP education serves but unless you really sit and talk with said physician I feel like their first instinct is often one of two extremes - "if you're going to let the NP practice medicine, you might as well let the janitors since they're about equally trained" or "I wish I would have been an NP because it's faster, cheaper, easier, and it's basically the same thing".

I just wonder how heavily I would want to stress this experience if I were to apply to a med school program. Again, I'm not one to really defend NPs, but I think thousands of hours of NP experience trumps a few hundred hours shadowing a physician as an undergrad. I'm not nearly as well-trained as a physician but there are a lot of patients that need very routine treatments and come to primary care with very textbook presentations that can very easily be managed by an NP.

 

[PikminOC]

You brought up two points I especially want to discuss.

You mentioned reaching out to prospective MD/DO programs. Is this something as simple as sending an email and talking to them? Maybe I'm naïve, but I've never done anything like this for any program as I always assume the response will be something like "our requirements are clearly outlined. Apply and we'll let you know if we're interested". Like I've said before I don't have to go back to school but I want to at least consider it. If I reach out to a bunch of schools that I would consider reasonably plausible and they tell me something like I have zero chance at admission or success, that would be rather helpful.

You also talked about hitting a ceiling and job security and what not. This is probably my own fault, but one of my biggest problems is my only full-time job I don't even work as an NP, but rather a psych RN at a very large hospital. I despite this job but it offers tremendous flexibility in terms of scheduling, it pays okay (much less than my NP jobs) but also offer fantastic benefits plus a pension. If I went back to med school and became a physician, I could eventually work there which would substantially boost my pension as it based exclusively on your highest base salary (and not your average salary). I often think of quitting that job but I'm an actual employee (no 1099's) so I know it is safe. I have 2-3 other positions right now which seem relatively secure, but they are all based on productivity and this method of compensation scares me a bit.

Perhaps part of my problem is I'm just a "career student". I have never had any student debt but even when there is no apparent reason to be enrolled in college courses I take things just because For some reason unbeknown to me, I am currently working on an AA in film studies from a community college in Santa Barbara. I have also considered applying for an ENP (Emergency Nurse Practitioner) or MPH program just because I feel like at my age I can't be done with formal growth and learning. Med school would obviously be a substantial improvement from the aforementioned options, but I'm not sure that's a good reason (at least on paper).



I often wonder about this. Talking to doctors (as in actual physicians) I get very varying responses as to what value an NP education serves but unless you really sit and talk with said physician I feel like their first instinct is often one of two extremes - "if you're going to let the NP practice medicine, you might as well let the janitors since they're about equally trained" or "I wish I would have been an NP because it's faster, cheaper, easier, and it's basically the same thing".

I just wonder how heavily I would want to stress this experience if I were to apply to a med school program. Again, I'm not one to really defend NPs, but I think thousands of hours of NP experience trumps a few hundred hours shadowing a physician as an undergrad. I'm not nearly as well-trained as a physician but there are a lot of patients that need very routine treatments and come to primary care with very textbook presentations that can very easily be managed by an NP.

Can't wait until you're in med school and residency and realize how much you don't know. The more I know the more I don't know. Please keep us updated here

 

[rdonahue87]

Can't wait until you're in med school and residency and realize how much you don't know. The more I know the more I don't know. Please keep us updated here

What are some recommendations for MCAT prep? I spent about 10 minutes randomly googling MCAT practice questions and that was a very depressing exercise. Is it worth the time/effort to take a practice one right off the bat just to sort of see where I'm starting from? Obviously I'm not going to do the real thing because if I go out and score a 480 that's pretty much a death sentence. But at the same time it would be nice to know if I'm starting somewhere in the 475-480 range or maybe at the slightly less pathetic 490.

Unrelated, I think it's kind of interesting that when I discuss this with people I know in real life over the past week I've had 3 different sets of responses:

Physicians: "You could definitely be a doctor. There's no doubt in my mind. My concern is you make a lot of money right now and it's a very long road ahead to get back to the lifestyle you already have"

NP Friends: "That's the stupidest idea I have ever heard. You literally couldn't do anything stupider than that"

Everyone else: "You should totally go for it"

The question is, who's right?

My concern is if I don't do med school I'm just going to waste a lot of time, effort, and money in something that makes no sense. There's some garbage law school near where I live. I have no desire at all to be a lawyer but I'm running out of educational opportunities as an NP so I've thought about doing that because I'm inexorably drawn to spending my life in school.

 

[PikminOC]

What are some recommendations for MCAT prep? I spent about 10 minutes randomly googling MCAT practice questions and that was a very depressing exercise. Is it worth the time/effort to take a practice one right off the bat just to sort of see where I'm starting from? Obviously I'm not going to do the real thing because if I go out and score a 480 that's pretty much a death sentence. But at the same time it would be nice to know if I'm starting somewhere in the 475-480 range or maybe at the slightly less pathetic 490.

Unrelated, I think it's kind of interesting that when I discuss this with people I know in real life over the past week I've had 3 different sets of responses:

Physicians: "You could definitely be a doctor. There's no doubt in my mind. My concern is you make a lot of money right now and it's a very long road ahead to get back to the lifestyle you already have"

NP Friends: "That's the stupidest idea I have ever heard. You literally couldn't do anything stupider than that"

Everyone else: "You should totally go for it"

The question is, who's right?

My concern is if I don't do med school I'm just going to waste a lot of time, effort, and money in something that makes no sense. There's some garbage law school near where I live. I have no desire at all to be a lawyer but I'm running out of educational opportunities as an NP so I've thought about doing that because I'm inexorably drawn to spending my life in school.

Neither is right. Its up to you to get in and thru

 

[petomed]

I'm just going to waste a lot of time, effort, and money in something that makes no sense.

You are making $240,000 to $300,000/yr right now as a NP. How exactly are you ‘wasting money’? Why does being a nurse practitioner make no sense? Yes, you are more than likely going to need sign-off and will, just like any other physician, need to refer patients to other specialties—but no one is preventing you from reading the same books as a medical student. It won’t be formal, but you have at your disposal and endless sea of case-studies from which to become more competent, if that is your big gripe.

There's some garbage law school near where I live. I have no desire at all to be a lawyer but I'm running out of educational opportunities as an NP so I've thought about doing that because I'm inexorably drawn to spending my life in school.

Running out of educational opportunities? Putting law school on the same plane as medical school, simply because you either enjoy being miserably overwhelmed or because you truly enjoy learning? Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted your paragraph here , but if I haven’t, you really need to discover why you must go to medical school. Your life is owned by books, your institution, and your patients for at least 7 years. The debt you’re likely to acquire during that time isn’t something you can just walk away from if your interests change. I’m not saying don’t pursue your dreams, but you really need to establish if, and why, they are actually your dreams first.

 

[rdonahue87]

Running out of educational opportunities? Putting law school on the same plane as medical school, simply because you either enjoy being miserably overwhelmed or because you truly enjoy learning? Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted your paragraph here , but if I haven’t, you really need to discover why you must go to medical school. Your life is owned by books, your institution, and your patients for at least 7 years. The debt you’re likely to acquire during that time isn’t something you can just walk away from if your interests change. I’m not saying don’t pursue your dreams, but you really need to establish if, and why, they are actually your dreams first.

Sorry, I think I mispresented what I meant with that section. I don't want to say I enjoy being miserable or overwhelmed with school. I just meant that I want to continue pursuing learning but my main goal is pursuing learning related to healthcare, medicine, and such. There's clearly a huge deficit in my learning and that's a reason med school makes sense to me. Realistically even if I were a licensed physician, I would probably pursue random academic interests that served no real purpose - I'm very close to an associate's degree in Spanish and that's something that would be of some value to me because it would demonstrate some competence in a foreign language despite no family heritage to the Spanish-speaking world.

The law school reference was probably a bit of an exaggeration. The medical director at the psych hospital I work for went to law school at one point. He is not a practicing lawyer as far as I can tell but he likes to occasionally add his unnecessary degree when sending memos right next the the MD he also earned.

Medicine and healthcare is what interests me since the time I was in late elementary school (for a while in 7th grade I considered architecture but we can ignore that) so I don't think I'm going to lose interest in this notion. Obviously at my age and with my current lifestyle, there is a lot of soul-searching that I would need to do.

At this point I think I have made the decision that I should at least pursue going to medical school because the actual decision of whether or not I want to go through with all of the effort is not something that I need to make a final decision today. There is a lot of soul-searching that is still necessary but I can do that while I do MCAT prep and improve my application. If I am going to try to make this happen, the sooner I get started the better. Waiting 5 years to decide this is a good idea will only diminish the final returns. Taking some prerequisite classes and studying for the MCAT isn't really going make a huge change in my current life but it will at least give me a far better perspective as to whether this option is worth pursuing. Based on everyone's opinions so far there seems to be a plausible chance that this could work. I think that was my main reason for posting here. I half expected most people to say something along the lines of I'm too old, too stupid, and too ill-prepared so I should just stop. Not a single person has said that so that at least means something.

 

[zamba]

Sorry, I think I mispresented what I meant with that section. I don't want to say I enjoy being miserable or overwhelmed with school. I just meant that I want to continue pursuing learning but my main goal is pursuing learning related to healthcare, medicine, and such. There's clearly a huge deficit in my learning and that's a reason med school makes sense to me. Realistically even if I were a licensed physician, I would probably pursue random academic interests that served no real purpose - I'm very close to an associate's degree in Spanish and that's something that would be of some value to me because it would demonstrate some competence in a foreign language despite no family heritage to the Spanish-speaking world.

The law school reference was probably a bit of an exaggeration. The medical director at the psych hospital I work for went to law school at one point. He is not a practicing lawyer as far as I can tell but he likes to occasionally add his unnecessary degree when sending memos right next the the MD he also earned.

Medicine and healthcare is what interests me since the time I was in late elementary school (for a while in 7th grade I considered architecture but we can ignore that) so I don't think I'm going to lose interest in this notion. Obviously at my age and with my current lifestyle, there is a lot of soul-searching that I would need to do.

At this point I think I have made the decision that I should at least pursue going to medical school because the actual decision of whether or not I want to go through with all of the effort is not something that I need to make a final decision today. There is a lot of soul-searching that is still necessary but I can do that while I do MCAT prep and improve my application. If I am going to try to make this happen, the sooner I get started the better. Waiting 5 years to decide this is a good idea will only diminish the final returns. Taking some prerequisite classes and studying for the MCAT isn't really going make a huge change in my current life but it will at least give me a far better perspective as to whether this option is worth pursuing. Based on everyone's opinions so far there seems to be a plausible chance that this could work. I think that was my main reason for posting here. I half expected most people to say something along the lines of I'm too old, too stupid, and too ill-prepared so I should just stop. Not a single person has said that so that at least means somethDo you