NP to MD

[David Memmoli]

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Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on how med schools view NPs who apply to become MDs?

I'm a family NP with both surgical and ER experience. Average ok 3.4, taking MCAT in August and practice tests are again, just ok, 24-27.

Great recs and essay. But I don't know if I'm overvaluing being an NP in the admissions process.

How much does it add/count being an NP trying to go to med school?

Thanks.

 

[wolverinepwns]

I've worked in a hospital for a few years now, and I work with quiet a few NPs and this topic was brought up! there is no programs in the US, there is a NP to MD program in Australia but its not accredited in the US. But, what I found interesting was that non of the NPs at my hospital were even remotely interested in doing such a program, they all agreed it wasn't worth it for them to do it, so I'm curious as to why you are considering it?

 

[apolito2321]

I've worked in a hospital for a few years now, and I work with quiet a few NPs and this topic was brought up! there is no programs in the US, there is a NP to MD program in Australia but its not accredited in the US. But, what I found interesting was that non of the NPs at my hospital were even remotely interested in doing such a program, they all agreed it wasn't worth it for them to do it, so I'm curious as to why you are considering it?

I think that the OP is asking if we know of any NPs who applied to and were accepted to medical school and whether being an NP facilitated their admission, not whether there was a type of NP to MD bridge program...

To the OP: At one of the schools I interviewed at there were two nurses interviewing as well, though I'm not sure whether they were at the NP level. That being said, I'm sure that many NPs have gone this route, and that their experience was beneficial. However, don't think for a second that it will make up for a subpar GPA/MCAT. You'll need to score higher than the range you are hitting on your practice tests with your GPA being on the low side. Is there a particular reason why you aren't considering DO programs as well?

 

[wolverinepwns]

I think that the OP is asking if we know of any NPs who applied to and were accepted to medical school and whether being an NP facilitated their admission, not whether there was a type of NP to MD bridge program...

Ohhh, my bad! I know two nurses that had BSNs, and both took the MCAT and applied! (one DO, one MD actually) and both got in! It definitely helped them, since they were already in the field and knew exactly what they wanted and were motivated! So although I don't know of any NPs that have done this (I only know 5-6 NPs so its not many), but I would imagine that would be even better than someone with a BSN! Hell, if a Math teacher or English teacher decides to become a doctor and does it, Being and NP and deciding to go MD/DO route should be much easier!

 

[David Memmoli]

Wolverinepwns,

Thanks for your input, but that's not the question I asked. I am NOT looking for a NP-to-MD program. I am looking to go back to medical school formally, I have all the prereqs and taking the MCAT in August.

I am looking to know what medical schools think of NPs applying and how much weight being an NP can have on acceptance.
Does this clarify what I am asking?

 

[David Memmoli]

apolito2321,

THanks for responding. I am looking for the MD credential, if I am going to go the DO route I think I would honestly move to Australia and just become a resident there. I still find in my associations as an NP that DOs are still looked at subpar, and if I am not going to be an MD< I might as well stay an NP.

I am curious though if anyone has direct knowledge from an admissions person, because I read all the time how 3.4 and 26 MCAT people get in, and 3.8 and 35 MCAT people dont. So what is the difference in these people's applications. Is being an NP a big deal and I would be one of those 3.4 25 MCAT people accepted.

THis is what I need to make sense. OBviously anyone can say higher grades and MCATs improve your chances, I can figure that out myself. What I am looking for is what makes the "lower scoring" applicant get in, and the "higher scoring" not get in? What is it about their application that is unique, and is being an NP something that med school admissions look on favorably, and if so how much does it mean?

Does this help clarify what info I am looking for?

 

[David Memmoli]

Wolveriinepwns,

This is my thinking as well, but I'm wondering if there is any direct knowledge of this form an NP or an admissions person. If you see the NPs you know, would you mind asking them?

Thanks.

 

[apolito2321]

Unfortunately, the scores you are ranging in combined with your GPA are just average for DO, and as you made clear in your post you are aware that they are subpar for MD. I am not an adcom, but from what I saw and heard in my interviews, people with masters and even doctorates were given no greater preference. For you to believe that just by being an NP adcoms will set your application into the "special pile" is foolish.

Also, I understand your lack of desire to pursue DO if you want to practice internationally. However, from your post it seems like you are less interested in becoming a physician and more concerned about how others perceive you. Don't forget that DOs have an unlimited scope of practice and equal rights to MDs in the US. I find it absurd that you would rather stay an NP (NON-physician) if denied MD acceptance rather than attempt to become a DO (Physician).

Edit: Posting from iphone FTL.

apolito2321,

THanks for responding. I am looking for the MD credential, if I am going to go the DO route I think I would honestly move to Australia and just become a resident there. I still find in my associations as an NP that DOs are still looked at subpar, and if I am not going to be an MD< I might as well stay an NP.

I am curious though if anyone has direct knowledge from an admissions person, because I read all the time how 3.4 and 26 MCAT people get in, and 3.8 and 35 MCAT people dont. So what is the difference in these people's applications. Is being an NP a big deal and I would be one of those 3.4 25 MCAT people accepted.

THis is what I need to make sense. OBviously anyone can say higher grades and MCATs improve your chances, I can figure that out myself. What I am looking for is what makes the "lower scoring" applicant get in, and the "higher scoring" not get in? What is it about their application that is unique, and is being an NP something that med school admissions look on favorably, and if so how much does it mean?

Does this help clarify what info I am looking for?

 

[David Memmoli]

apolito2321,

I am looking for information, not your self righteous judgment. To be an actively practicing NP with surgical and ER experience doing basically exactly what the physicians do, is not "foolish" to think that being a pseudo-doctor might offer an advantage and put me in a "special pile". PAs and NPs are unique in that they are already working as practitioenrs, unlike what other applicant may be able to offer.

Not wanting to become a DO is my own personal choice and has nothing to do with how I think others perceive me. If that IS what I cared about, I'd become a DO, since it is a step up from an NP.

Since reviewing this site, I have found two things that are consistent:

1) people like to tell others what they think of them without any basis or understanding of that person.

2) everybody's golden advice for "What are my chances" is better GPA and better MCAT. What idiot can't figure that out for themselves?

Unfortunately, this site has not turned out to be useful for gaining insight as I had hoped.

 

[apolito2321]

Not wanting to become a DO is my own personal choice and has nothing to do with how I think others perceive me.

Seriously? Right after you posted this?

I still find in my associations as an NP that DOs are still looked at subpar, and if I am not going to be an MD< I might as well stay an NP.

Once again, I think that it is foolish to believe that you will be given special admissions consideration based on your current status as a nurse practitioner. Is it good that you have clinical experience? Sure. Is that going to make up for a poor MCAT and GPA? I'd say no. Everyone is competing for the same spots.

This site is good for what it is advertised as - "Student Doctor Network", not "ask an adcom". This is exactly the type of response you will get. I am a person who applied, interviewed, and was accepted at both MD and DO programs. I met people similar to you and kept in touch with them afterwards, and was merely offering what advice I could based on my own and their experiences. I am not on the admissions committee, and I have no absolute knowledge of how they will perceive applicants who are also NPs. Take it for what it's worth, and maybe try posting in the NP/PA forums to see if you can find someone in a situation similar to yours.

 

[Salient]

There are a few posters on this site that are or were on adcoms. You can try PMing them. Unfortunately most of the posters here are pre-meds like me who don't know any more than you do, but will offer our opinions anyway.

From what I've seen from browsing around for the last few years, though, ECs will primarily help you only if you already have competitive stats. Your GPA is okay, but a mid-20s MCAT is still pretty low.

Your experience will make up for being on the low end of the score spectrum, but you still need to be in the competitive range. A 28-30 will give you a much better shot than a 25 will.

 

[David Memmoli]

apolito,

Saying, "I still find in my associations as an NP that DOs are still looked at subpar, and if I am not going to be an MD< I might as well stay an NP." Does not mean I care about whether people perceive me as an NP or DO, it means, for me, my personal choice is not to be a DO and remain an NP. It is unfortunate that you are not correctly interpreting what is being said. . . . seriously.

Clearly you hold DOs in high regard . . . .good for you!

Once again, let me clarify so you can understand the question that is actually being asked.

What value, to what degree does being an NP add or not to an applicant's chances of acceptance?

Is this clearer for you, apolito?

 

[David Memmoli]

Salient,

I hear that, and it is not that I disagree that better scores help. However, I continually see postings be people who have been accepted to MD programs with mid to high 20s on their MCATs. So what else did they have that made them get in? THis is what I am hoping to find out.

CLearly, when a school releases its stats of GPA 3.61 and MCAT 30Q for example, these are averages. Obviously someone got in with less than a 3.6 and less than a 30 MCAT. I understand I am on the low end of the bell curve, so what else do these other students have that get in with lower scores?

 

[apolito2321]

Saying, "I still find in my associations as an NP that DOs are still looked at subpar, and if I am not going to be an MD< I might as well stay an NP." Does not mean I care about whether people perceive me as an NP or DO, it means, for me, my personal choice is not to be a DO and remain an NP.

...because of how it relates to your perception among your NP associations. If I'm misinterpreting this, it's because the sentence was poorly worded. Don't take my replies personally, I am not attacking you.

I have already answered your question to the best of my ability and experience. I believe that being a NP will be beneficial to the extent that you have clinical experience, but that's it. I don't think that it will get you special consideration, and you certainly shouldn't rely on it as a crutch for poor scores. Rather than lulling yourself into a false sense of security, you should be working all the harder to make yourself a more competitive applicant. As you said, everybody knows the importance of scores in the admissions process.

 

[Lokhtar]

Salient,

I hear that, and it is not that I disagree that better scores help. However, I continually see postings be people who have been accepted to MD programs with mid to high 20s on their MCATs. So what else did they have that made them get in? THis is what I am hoping to find out.

They generally had higher GPA. Not universally of course, there are people at every school who are below in both GPA and MCAT, but it's not the norm.

CLearly, when a school releases its stats of GPA 3.61 and MCAT 30Q for example, these are averages. Obviously someone got in with less than a 3.6 and less than a 30 MCAT. I understand I am on the low end of the bell curve, so what else do these other students have that get in with lower scores?

Not necessarily. They may have had a higher GPA and a lower MCAT, or vice versa. Being low on both counts is much harder to overcome. According to MSAR, your GPA and MCAT would give you around 20% chance of successful matriculation to medical school.

 

[Doodledog]

What value, to what degree does being an NP add or not to an applicant's chances of acceptance?

It will MOST LIKELY add a little, probably not much to your overall application. There is no easy generalization here because these sorts of things are seen very differently by different individuals, even within one school. Like non-NP RNs and other health care practitioners you will be asked about and your response carefully evaluated as to why you are making this change. In general, however, it will not make up for a low GPA, low MCAT or otherwise poor essay, interview, etc. Tell a good story in your essays and your interview and it'll help, but it won't overcome numbers in a substantial way. Folks who got in with low numbers would generally not have done so because of previous health care experience, in my opinion.

I am both an adcom and someone who is aware of several NPs who applied to medical school. No PMs please asking for details.

 

[David Memmoli]

Lokhtar,

20%? I'll take it!!! What is this MSAR?

 

[David Memmoli]

Tildy,

Thanks for your input. MY recs are from very high profile physicians and surgeons, and have been told my essay is very good - a tear jerker. And fortunately I am a good interviewee. Where I AM weak is the GPA and MCAT. Let's hope the other stuff is enough.

Again, thanks for your input!

 

[David Memmoli]

Tildy,

Actually, if I may ask how post grad work is viewed. My masters as an NP was 3.8, but when I was young and, well young I didn't do well initially in college and a D and few C's have brought down my undergrad GPA to this 3.4. Since the AMCAS doesn't average in the graduate degree into my GPA, how do committees see this?

My apologies if this is considered asking for details.

 

[apolito2321]

Lokhtar,

20%? I'll take it!!! What is this MSAR?

Medical School Admission Requirements. It's a text detailing the statistics of students accepted to each US medical school individually.

http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/msar.htm

 

[Mbeas]

edit: apolito said it before me

 

[David Memmoli]

Thanks apolito!

 

[SpecialmED]

I was in a DNP program before I came to medical school, I interviewed a quite a few schools and was never asked once about being a nurse or mid-level practitioner. So I'd imagine its the same as everyone else, a numbers game.


Sorry if this was already answered I didn't read anyone else's replies....

 

[apolito2321]

Thanks apolito!

No problem. Through that site, you can see pages like this that another poster referenced:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpagridall2007-09.pdf

That grid details individual statistics of people who applied with a given GPA/MCAT combination for 2007-2009. You can see that for people such as yourself who are stuck in a specific GPA range, increasing your MCAT score will have a tremendous impact on your chance of acceptance (obviously).

 

[millepora]

All they are going to do is look at it as a solid extracurricular. Don't expect it to have much more weight than someone who was a BSN, a EMT, etc. You go to medical to learn everything from scratch. Intellect is precedent to everything else. Sure solid medical experience will help you will some of second year, and probably a lot of third year, but the people who have the mental capacity to learn quickly are the ones who end up learning and retaining the most. That is why medical school admissions are more than happy to accept music majors or art majors who have 35 MCATs.

 

[Doodledog]

Tildy,

Actually, if I may ask how post grad work is viewed. My masters as an NP was 3.8, but when I was young and, well young I didn't do well initially in college and a D and few C's have brought down my undergrad GPA to this 3.4. Since the AMCAS doesn't average in the graduate degree into my GPA, how do committees see this?

My apologies if this is considered asking for details.

They'll note it, but it won't be a major factor.

 

[wolverinepwns]

Honestly, In order for med schools to take a look at your ECs and your other qualification, they first have to go through your GPA and MCAT (as in they look at your stats first and then if thats on par with their standards then they move to everything else). Which I personally don't feel is the best way to pick the future physicians, but its the way its done! So if you can get passed that level, then being an NP will be beneficial!

 

[David Memmoli]

wolverinepwns,

I completely agree. As an NP I have seen countless interns and residents that frankly are just idiots. Here I am doing the exact same thing, but because I have trouble calculating friction coefficents and heats of vaporization, I'm left at the disadvantage. Frankly, I would think med schools would relish the idea of having someone who is practically trained already.

These "doctors" come out and start their intern year and are clueless, and some of them pick it up and some don't.

And considering the shortage of physicians predicted in the next 10-15 years (about 100,000 physician shortage by 2025) I would like to know why they would continue to add to the growing dominance of the NP profession. If the shortage continues it is only going to lead to NPs becoming more independent then they are now. There are already legislative bills to abolish collaboration agreements with physicians and make the DNP the degree for NPS (eliminating the masters level).

I appreciate everything Tildy had to offer, it just strikes me how it can matter so little.

 

[boggvir]

The problem is one of spots. If there were more spots and the competition was less, then they might be able to accept more people. Right now, you're competing against thousands of people who have 3.7+/32+, as well as good ECs. For every point less in GPA or MCAT you have, there has to be some justification for the med schools to pick you over them.