NRMP data question

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GAdoc

GAdoc
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This thread may belong in the "general residency issues" forum, but since I'm interested in a surgical specialty, I wanted yall's opinion.

I was looking over NRMP data. Why is it that some very competitive specialties always have a few unmatched spots. ENT was only 98% filled. Ortho was only 97% filled. How does this occur? Are there not US med grads who scramble into these spots? I mean, there are like 9 or 10 people who apply on average for each spot. Do they just settle on other things rather than scramble?
 
Depends on what you are talking about. Some programs go unfilled during the original match process. For competitive programs, this is because they got cocky and didn't rank very many people, or possibly because of a clerical error entering in their rank list. These positions are then offered to people participating in the scramble. These positions generally get filled. However, some programs take their time in deciding who to take. On Match Day they may still show as unfilled, but they get filled when the program makes their decision (one program took a week and a half to decide last year when I went through the process). Other times, the spots may go completely unfilled, because the program is not accepting any intern spots (as happened last year with the Wayne State ortho program shutting down). That probably doesn't happen a ton, but could skew the match data.
 
Thanks for the input. It just didn't make sense to see some of these competitive specialties with unmatched spots.
 
the ortho unmathched spots where because Wayne State/DMC was still in the match, even though their residency had been shut down...therefore, they could take no applicants. things like this happen every year.

-tm
 
the ortho unmathched spots where because Wayne State/DMC was still in the match, even though their residency had been shut down...therefore, they could take no applicants. things like this happen every year.

-tm

Not all the ortho spots were from Wayne State. There were 8 legitimate available spots, though I think a few must have been because one program had a snafu with their rank list.
 
So does that theoretically mean that if I had applied to ortho this past year I definately would've gotten it? I mean, even if I had had to scramble it seems like if there were available positions, they would've gone to somebody. Hospitals don't take residents just as a favor to the medical profession! I mean, it's a great source of cheap labor for them.
 
So does that theoretically mean that if I had applied to ortho this past year I definately would've gotten it? I mean, even if I had had to scramble it seems like if there were available positions, they would've gone to somebody. Hospitals don't take residents just as a favor to the medical profession! I mean, it's a great source of cheap labor for them.

Ummm, no. Those 8 spots got filled by one of the many people that tried to get into ortho, but were unsuccessful. In 2005 there were 859 applicants for 610 positions. I'm sure then numbers were similar last year and in years past. Therefore there were probably at least 250 people competing for those 8 spots. How do you like those odds?
 
OK, I see...so there are not STILL 8 spots open, those spots are the ones that were scrambled for? That makes sense. So what about everyone else? If 250 people scrambled for 8 spots, then what did the 242 end up doing? Did they take a year off or take and internal medicine spot somewhere?
 
Depends, but the majority of people I talked to either did a prelim surgery year (may or may not count as an ortho intern year, you might be able to get a 2nd year spot if one opens up-most just reapply for a 1st year ortho spot), or a research year (some more official than others, some pay you-probably not living large though). If you are set on a specialty, you probably aren't going to settle for something else your first time around. Some people might be happy in a different specialty. They can either scramble into one of those spots, or apply for a backup (that gives you more choice in the matter, but means you can't try to scramble into any open spots in the specialty you originally wanted).
 
I'm guessing there are plenty of prelim. surgery spots (since I see quite a few match into them on school match lists). However, if I understand you correctly, there is no guarantee that you would match the second year. Don't some programs have dedicated prelim spots (i.e. not a categorical slot, but if you complete the prelim year, you get a categorical slot starting in year two)?
 
I'm guessing there are plenty of prelim. surgery spots (since I see quite a few match into them on school match lists).

There are always more preliminary surgical positions available than there are applicants. Many who have the option of a Prelim Medicine or Surgery year (ie, Rads, Anesthesia) will choose Medicine.

However, if I understand you correctly, there is no guarantee that you would match the second year.

There are never any guarantees. This is why you have to have a "Plan B" in the possibility that you don't match into Ortho one, two, or more years in a row.

Don't some programs have dedicated prelim spots (i.e. not a categorical slot, but if you complete the prelim year, you get a categorical slot starting in year two)?

No. There are designated preliminary surgery positions, but no dedicated ones. A designated preliminary surgery position is for those subspecialties which require 1 year of general surgery before going onto advanced training - ie, Urology, ENT, Neurosurg, Ortho, etc. Almost always these positions are applied to at the same time as the advanced position (during the 4th year) and at the same program. Thus, a designated position would only be open if there was an opening in the advanced standing program for the following year.

For example, say I have 10 designated preliminary positions and 5 non-designated preliminary positions. So, perhaps 2 of the designated positions go to Uro interns, 3 go to ENT, 2 go to Neurosurg and 3 to Ortho - all of these residents have a position in their respective specialty for the PGY2 year.

3 of the non-designated prelim positions go to people who do not have a job after the completion of their intern year - some want to get into categorical general surgery, some one of the surgical subspecialties. And say the remaining 2 of the non-designated prelim positions were given to Anesthesia residents who for some reason decided to do a surgical rather than medical intern year.

Now if you are one of the non-designated prelims, you can work your behind off and hopefully impress the program and be offered a categorical spot for your PGY2 year. However (and this is big), it does not necessarily mean that you will start at the second year. If the program doesn't have space for you in the 2nd year, they may offer you the position on the basis that you: 1)repeat your intern year, 2) go into the lab for a year or 3) even do another Prelim year, waiting for a spot to open up. It is not unheard of for people to do 3 years of Preliminary surgery before getting offered a Categorical spot - however, they have finished the program. You also need to know that starting this year, the ACS will not give board certification to anyone who has trained at more than 3 programs, so you want to stay at one, or at most 2.

Getting a designated prelim spot which is left open can be difficult - it would have to occur in the scramble (because a program didn't fill) or because someone leaves a program. It does happen, the trick is hearing about it. Keep in mind that many will not offer you the Prelim position unless you have matched into an advanced spot for the following year, either at that program or another. So you would have to take the Non-designated spot, if available.

Does that make sense? Essentially the answer to your last question is that there are no guaranteed spots in which you start as a prelim and get a categorical position the next year unless a) you have matched into the categorical spot the same year (ie, a designated prelim) or b) you work your butt off and get offered a spot (ie, the non-designated - which is not by any means predictable or a sure thing).
 
Thanks for the good information. I guess the bottom line is if you want a more competitive residency....do well on Step 1 so you can get a Categorical Slot!
 
I read what you wrote a little more carefully, and it caused me to have a couple more questions.

First, how do people wind up in a designated preliminary year? Do they TRY to match into it, or are they placed into it if they don't get the categorical spot?

If you didn't get the designated spot, would you automatically be placed in the non-designated slot or would they ask you first whether you wanted to do that?

Let's say for example I want to do ENT. Say my resume is not terrible and I interview at several programs, but it is such that I couldn't match directly in to a categorical slot. When I get ready to list programs for the match, would I list only the ENT slots where I interviewed, or would I also list some designated prelim slots as well?

Say I got a dedicated prelim slot, would it DEFINATELY lead to a pgy2 slot in ENT or would I have to re-enter the match for a pgy2 slot? If it did guarantee a pgy2 slot, where...at the same program or a different program?
 
You have to specifically apply to a prelim year.

If you apply to a categorical spot and don't match, you can try to scramble into open spots but there are no guarantees.

You have to match into the dedicated prelim spot as well as the categorical spot, or else there is no guaranteed job for you the following year.

You indicate in the match process which programs you would be willing to go to and which category of program you would be willing to match into (categorical, prelim, research track, etc) by clicking boxes when you apply, and entering them into your rank list.
 
I read what you wrote a little more carefully, and it caused me to have a couple more questions.

First, how do people wind up in a designated preliminary year? Do they TRY to match into it, or are they placed into it if they don't get the categorical spot?

You have to match into BOTH the designated prelim year and the advanced categorical (PGY2) year at the same time. Many programs will not take you for the designated prelim year unless you have matched into an advanced position., although it is not unheard of to get the prelim spot and not the advanced spot. Programs are increasingly offering their own prelim years so as to do away with the problem of people getting a designated prelim spot but not matching into the advanced position.

If you didn't get the designated spot, would you automatically be placed in the non-designated slot or would they ask you first whether you wanted to do that?

No. If you didn't match into a designated prelim position, you are generally not offered a non-designated slot - these are entirely different categories. You would have to scramble for a prelim position, and hopefully the program at which you matched for the advanced position would be of some assistance. However, it is not automatic that you would be offered one of the non-designated slots.

If you match to an advanced position which offers designated prelim years, you pretty much have a guarantee that you get the prelim spot there. The problem arises when you apply for a prelim spot at a program different from the one which you rank for your advanced training - there is less they can do to help you if you don't match at the former, as all the designated spots will presumably be filled.

Let's say for example I want to do ENT. Say my resume is not terrible and I interview at several programs, but it is such that I couldn't match directly in to a categorical slot. When I get ready to list programs for the match, would I list only the ENT slots where I interviewed, or would I also list some designated prelim slots as well?

You have to either only rank advanced training positions which also offer the prelim year at the same program, or else you rank designated and advanced positions together (but at different programs). If you do not rank any prelim spots and the programs to which you apply for advanced training do not offer them, then you will be SOL and have to scramble for your prelim year. You must rank both.

Say I got a dedicated prelim slot, would it DEFINATELY lead to a pgy2 slot in ENT or would I have to re-enter the match for a pgy2 slot?

Absolutely not. You must match into both the prelim and the advanced standing programs at the same time. As I noted above, many prelim programs will not take you (ie, you won't match) if you aren't matched into the advanced program at the same time - they don't want to have to deal with you moping around. However, many do. And yes, in that case, you have to reapply through the match BUT since the match for advanced standing is two years ahead - if you don't match during your 4th year (for a program starting your PGY2 year) and you can't scramble into a position you will have to either sit out a year or do a 2nd prelim year because applying for the advanced training match during your intern year means applying for "PGY2" spots which won't open up for 2 years (as they have already been previously filled) - or your PGY3 spot. There may be some advanced spots which open up because a program fires someone, they leave or die, or a program starts up and it was too late to participate in the match. Therefore, you need to keep in close touch with those in your field of choice who may know about open positions if you don't match. Whew...

If it did guarantee a pgy2 slot, where...at the same program or a different program?

As above, many programs offer both the prelim and the advanced standing positions. So, if you match into 1, you match into the other. However, some do not and there is no guarantee that if you match into 1 you will get the other - especially if there are at different programs.
 
Why would a program offer pgy2 (advanced training) spots? Wouldn't it just make more sense for them to offer all categorical slots and cut out the nonsense of having to possibly do a prelim year at a different institution, then moving AGAIN?

So, if I'm getting this, the key is to assess your own ability. If I doubt whether I can match directly into a competitive specialty like ENT, I would also rank a dedicated prelim. spot AND my top choice for advanced training?
 
Lots of programs separate the intern year from the rest of the residency. Maybe they don't have enough work to have a bunch of prelims around, maybe they just don't want to train them. You can adjust your ranking of prelim programs to go with your advanced programs, to try to minimize moving.

For ENT, I am not sure they have a separate prelim year you need to do. A quick look at the FREIDA site showed me a bunch of categorical programs. So you would just apply to those programs. You apply to so prelim programs as a backup, but I don't know what you chances would be of getting an advanced position. You would likely have to reapply for a 1st year spot in a categorical program. However, that is not what I am applying to so I haven't looked into it that closely. The ENT forum might have some useful info you can search for.
 
Ummm, no. Those 8 spots got filled by one of the many people that tried to get into ortho, but were unsuccessful. In 2005 there were 859 applicants for 610 positions. I'm sure then numbers were similar last year and in years past. Therefore there were probably at least 250 people competing for those 8 spots. How do you like those odds?


Unless those folks matched into a back-up specialty.
 
Why would a program offer pgy2 (advanced training) spots? Wouldn't it just make more sense for them to offer all categorical slots and cut out the nonsense of having to possibly do a prelim year at a different institution, then moving AGAIN?

So, if I'm getting this, the key is to assess your own ability. If I doubt whether I can match directly into a competitive specialty like ENT, I would also rank a dedicated prelim. spot AND my top choice for advanced training?


I think I have suceeded in confusing you.

If ENT is not an advanced match anymore (ie, you match directly into the categorical program but you WILL spend your first year as a Designated ENT Prelim general surgery resident - that is, you don't start doing all ENT until your second year), then you need only to apply to those programs.

If you don't think you will match, then you can 1) apply for non-designated Prelim spots just to get a year of training under your belt - and list these last after all your ENT programs, 2) scramble into an ENT position
3) not rank any prelim spots and scramble into one if you don't match into ENT 4) take the year off and reassess.

Remember there is no such thing as a dedicated prelim spot. There are designated prelim spots which are reserved for those who have matched into an advanced residency position at the same program.

If you don't think you will match into ENT but you have interviewed, rank all of your ENT programs you can see yourself doing residency in and if you care to do so, rank some Prelim (these will not be the designated positions as those will be reserved for those who match, but rather the non-designated) programs at the bottom of your list to increase your chances of matching somewhere, into something.

So the situation may be different for ENT just as it may be for some other advanced match specialties. Using Anesthesiology as an example, again you need to match into your Prelim year at the same time as you match for your CA-1 (OR Categorical 1st year position in Anesthesia). Many Anesthesia programs will offer the Prelim year to you as well as the categorical spot, but many do not and YES, you do have to move after a year. It can be a drag, but sometimes programs don't offer intern positions.

Does that make sense? I hope so because I'm getting tired!:laugh:
 
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