NRMP Server Crashed

[NotAProgDirector]

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What a total catastrophe. My program filled, so I was only following this peripherally.

Both ERAS and NRMP are going to be in the hot seat, by both programs and applicants.

Next year's SOAP won't really fix anything. Yes, getting your call in first won't be critical because decisions won't happen for the first 48 hours. But you can bet that everyone will still want to be first, hence the onslaught immediately upon the list release.

It will be interesting to see if there really was a DOS attack on the NRMP server today, rather than simply thousands of scrambling applicants endlessly refreshing their screens.

 

[Jwax]

What a total catastrophe. My program filled, so I was only following this peripherally.

Both ERAS and NRMP are going to be in the hot seat, by both programs and applicants.

Next year's SOAP won't really fix anything. Yes, getting your call in first won't be critical because decisions won't happen for the first 48 hours. But you can bet that everyone will still want to be first, hence the onslaught immediately upon the list release.

It will be interesting to see if there really was a DOS attack on the NRMP server today, rather than simply thousands of scrambling applicants endlessly refreshing their screens.

So my solution when helping scrambling classmates today was to email the program director or coordinator since ERAS was dead in the water... from a program director's view point, is that reasonable? I refused to let us just sit there b/c the computer system wasn't working and faxing is so... 1990's.

It was insane today. I'm a girl, and my girly desires to just give our scramblers hugs to make it all better were barely controllable today. What a cluster. Good news, of our ~10 or so scramblers, most found something today. for tomorrow's resumed fiasco. I couldn't handle helping a second day when the desperation has increased dramatically...

 

[peppy]

so how does the scramble work tomorrow? do programs start at a specific time? I don't know what to do anymore? Do I keep calling? when do I call it a day?

There is no specific time when it starts. I'd say just start trying to call again first thing during normal business hours. I'd say keep trying to call places until you've exhausted every option you'd consider or until the end of the week. After that, I'd say keep an eye on places like residentswap for new open spots that may come up over the next few months (remember that not everyone who matches will end up actually starting residency, so some vacancies will show up).
to everyone who still needs a spot. This situation really is unfair to you guys. It's like salt in the wound to have to deal with the frustration of not being able to get the website to work like it should.

 

[pathstudent]

Again, please do not post, request or offer to share copyrighted information from the NRMP. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Why not people post photograps images and articles that are copyrighted ad naueseum. Why is this different?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Why not people post photograps images and articles that are copyrighted ad naueseum. Why is this different?

We remove copyrighted material at the request of the copyright holder.

 

[fiji128]

I deal with copyright issues all the time in my current position (I am not a lawyer). Anyone can claim anything is copyrighted. This does not mean that it is actually copyrightable. There are certain standards that need to be meet for something to actually be protected by copyright. Things like the alphabet, math equations, statement of facts and even tables/graphs of data do not meet these standards and are not copyrightable. I highly suspect publishing a list of residency programs with unfilled slots does not come anywhere close to meeting the standards needed to make an item copyrightable. However, I guess we all agreed to abide by the rules of the NRMP, which clearly states that we would not distribute/publish this list, which means you are not legally allowed to do this. But the point I'm trying to make is that a simple list of the names of programs with unfilled positions is not something that is actually copyrightable.

 

[smq123]

I deal with copyright issues all the time in my current position (I am not a lawyer). Anyone can claim anything is copyrighted. This does not mean that it is actually copyrightable. There are certain standards that need to be meet for something to actually be protected by copyright. Things like the alphabet, math equations, statement of facts and even tables/graphs of data do not meet these standards and are not copyrightable. I highly suspect publishing a list of residency programs with unfilled slots does not come anywhere close to meeting the standards needed to make an item copyrightable. However, I guess we all agreed to abide by the rules of the NRMP, which clearly states that we would not distribute/publish this list, which means you are not legally allowed to do this. But the point I'm trying to make is that a simple list of the names of programs with unfilled positions is not something that is actually copyrightable.

Tell it to the NRMP.

In any case, you're right, it IS in the match agreement. Whether or not it is truly copyrighted something that is not up for debate, nor is it something that any of the admins on SDN would really care to waste their time over. Just don't post it, don't ask for it, don't offer to tell people where they can see a copy of the list. Done.

 

[Eat Oatmeal]

Tell it to the NRMP.

In any case, you're right, it IS in the match agreement. Whether or not it is truly copyrighted something that is not up for debate, nor is it something that any of the admins on SDN would really care to waste their time over. Just don't post it, don't ask for it, don't offer to tell people where they can see a copy of the list. Done.

I think this would be a HUGE distinction though. If this were true then SDN would not be required to remove such posts because they are not bound by the match agreement.

The other question I had is regarding when the NRMP asked SDN to remove the regional match statistics due to copyright violations. Yes I understand the web page was copyrighted, but it is on an unaltered, unprotected link from NRMP. This was posted on SDN and removed for copyright violations. This link was the same from previous years also. Are they allowed to claim copyright?

In no way am I asking for a list (I already matched) but I would be interested any input from copyright professionals about this as it would have many ramifications in other contexts.

 

[smq123]

I think this would be a HUGE distinction though. If this were true then SDN would not be required to remove such posts because they are not bound by the match agreement.

No, but technically someone who DID sign the match agreement is illegally providing that list...and again, no one at SDN wants to be the middle-man in that shady agreement.

I mean, how willing would you be to sell a watch or a car that you KNEW was stolen? I would bet that most people would want nothing to do with such a situation.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I think this would be a HUGE distinction though. If this were true then SDN would not be required to remove such posts because they are not bound by the match agreement.

The other question I had is regarding when the NRMP asked SDN to remove the regional match statistics due to copyright violations. Yes I understand the web page was copyrighted, but it is on an unaltered, unprotected link from NRMP. This was posted on SDN and removed for copyright violations. This link was the same from previous years also. Are they allowed to claim copyright?

In no way am I asking for a list (I already matched) but I would be interested any input from copyright professionals about this as it would have many ramifications in other contexts.

The regional match statistics are not currently available to the public, only to those registered with NRMP. Reposting that content was a violation of the NRMP's copyright and the Match Agreement. If at some time they become available to the general public, it will be acceptable to link to them, but not to reproduce them entirely on this site.

We want to protect SDN from costly legal entanglements that interfere with our nonprofit, educational mission. It costs money to go to court, even if you win. We also want to protect our members from actions that could potentially damage their careers and future in the medical field. Thus, we are disallowing the posting of proprietary information related to ERAS and the NRMP match.

 

[Eat Oatmeal]

No, but technically someone who DID sign the match agreement is illegally providing that list...and again, no one at SDN wants to be the middle-man in that shady agreement.

I mean, how willing would you be to sell a watch or a car that you KNEW was stolen? I would bet that most people would want nothing to do with such a situation.

I agree with you whole heatedly. I guess a better suggestion would have been an unmoderated or poorly moderated forum. Regardless of this, my true question is the copyright law surrounding all this.

 

[Eat Oatmeal]

The regional match statistics are not currently available to the public, only to those registered with NRMP. Reposting that content was a violation of the NRMP's copyright and the Match Agreement. If at some time they become available to the general public, it will be acceptable to link to them, but not to reproduce them entirely on this site.

We want to protect SDN from costly legal entanglements that interfere with our nonprofit, educational mission. It costs money to go to court, even if you win. We also want to protect our members from actions that could potentially damage their careers and future in the medical field. Thus, we are disallowing the posting of proprietary information related to ERAS and the NRMP match.

The last thing I want is SDN to be "entangled" in anything legal. I just want to start a discussion about the copyright issues surrounding what happened. I am not advocating anything, I am just inquiring. And what you said is the heart of my question. The link they provided was unprotected meaning that if I type in the URL I do not need to login or provide verification. Do they have some sort of statement saying that the regional statistics is only intentioned for applicants that allows them to do this?

I guess my question is: does the copyright symbol on the bottom of any page prevent you from sharing a site that could otherwise be accessed freely, given that you have the link?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

The last thing I want is SDN to be "entangled" in anything legal. I just want to start a discussion about the copyright issues surrounding what happened. I am not advocating anything, I am just inquiring. And what you said is the heart of my question. The link they provided was unprotected meaning that if I type in the URL I do not need to login or provide verification. Do they have some sort of statement saying that the regional statistics is only intentioned for applicants that allows them to do this?

I guess my question is: does the copyright symbol on the bottom of any page prevent you from sharing a site that could otherwise be accessed freely, given that you have the link?

1) I don't think the regional match statistics are available to the public. When I follow the link that was provided, I am rerouted to the NRMP login page.

2) The fact that a page is copyrighted does not prevent one from sharing the page (via linking to it) but it is probably best to avoid reproducing or copying the content of that page on another site.

 

[Eat Oatmeal]

1) I don't think the regional match statistics are available to the public. When I follow the link that was provided, I am rerouted to the NRMP login page.

2) The fact that a page is copyrighted does not prevent one from sharing the page (via linking to it) but it is probably best to avoid reproducing or copying the content of that page on another site.

Hmmm..You are right. They may have changed it after noticing that. That answers a lot lol.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Hmmm..You are right. They may have changed it after noticing that. That answers a lot lol.

It was the case on 3/14/2011 when we received the request from the NRMP. The person who posted the reproduced information from the NRMP site even stated that he or she was posting it for "those who can't access it." That is a violation of the match agreement and is mostly an issue between the student and the NRMP, although as smq stated, SDN would prefer not to be the middleman in such transactions. That the information (which is copyrighted) was taken in its entirity from the NRMP site and reproduced on SDN is a legal issue for this website. We like to avoid those.

 

[Hernandez]

It was the case on 3/14/2011 when we received the request from the NRMP. The person who posted the reproduced information from the NRMP site even stated that he or she was posting it for "those who can't access it." That is a violation of the match agreement and is mostly an issue between the student and the NRMP, although as smq stated, SDN would prefer not to be the middleman in such transactions. That the information (which is copyrighted) was taken in its entirity from the NRMP site and reproduced on SDN is a legal issue for this website. We like to avoid those.

so let me get this straight, in the midst of a huge screw up on nrmp's part where many medical students can not access the scramble list who legitimately need it because they didn't match, the nrmp was browsing sdn to stop the sharing of the list? on paper that sounds like a really egregious waste of their time and powers.....

 

[Maybeknot]

And what you said is the heart of my question. The link they provided was unprotected meaning that if I type in the URL I do not need to login or provide verification. Do they have some sort of statement saying that the regional statistics is only intentioned for applicants that allows them to do this?

I guess my question is: does the copyright symbol on the bottom of any page prevent you from sharing a site that could otherwise be accessed freely, given that you have the link?

This is an interesting question, and I am not a lawyer (thankfully). The question of whether "deep linking" to a website is legal or not has been brought before courts before, and their rulings have been ambiguous.

Suffice it to say, the NRMP can make this a big headache for anyone who crosses it's path. And given that all of this information will be made public in a week or two anyways, it doesn't seem like a battle worth fighting.

let me get this straight, in the midst of a huge screw up on nrmp's part where many medical students can not access the scramble list who legitimately need it because they didn't match, the nrmp was browsing sdn to stop the sharing of the list? on paper that sounds like a really egregious waste of their time and powers.....

The copyright violation notice came before the scramble (and ensuing catastrophe) started.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

so let me get this straight, in the midst of a huge screw up on nrmp's part where many medical students can not access the scramble list who legitimately need it because they didn't match, the nrmp was browsing sdn to stop the sharing of the list? on paper that sounds like a really egregious waste of their time and powers.....

They're a business. They don't care about the students, they just care about their money and their "copyrights"

 

[fiji128]

The last thing I want is SDN to be "entangled" in anything legal. I just want to start a discussion about the copyright issues surrounding what happened. I am not advocating anything, I am just inquiring. And what you said is the heart of my question. The link they provided was unprotected meaning that if I type in the URL I do not need to login or provide verification. Do they have some sort of statement saying that the regional statistics is only intentioned for applicants that allows them to do this?

I guess my question is: does the copyright symbol on the bottom of any page prevent you from sharing a site that could otherwise be accessed freely, given that you have the link?

You can always provide a link to someone or publish the link even if it directs to copyrighted materiel, this is 100% kosher. Also, another interesting example of something that is not copyrightable is the white pages of the phone book, which is just a list of facts (ie people's name and numbers).

 

[anatolyk]

Regarding "copyrightability" of the list. NRMP just put so much money into making everybody scared of copyright violation. I heard of NRMP mailing nasty letters to forum owners threatening them for posting copyrighted information and requesting names and IP addresses of the violators. I was also told that drafting a letter like this by the law firm that they use costs about $10K.

At the same time I doubt anybody has obligations to release information to NRMP unless there is a court subpoena, which even a $10K letter won't make happen. Just because of this, most forums have a short log retention policy - logs get purged avery other day. Worst - NRMP requests forum admin to remove violating material, which usually admins comply with because unlike NRMP, which declares itself as a non-profit, forums really aren't moneymakers.

Homework:A server costs $1K. There are 10 active forums. Use cost of "fear me now" letter from NRMP to calculate how many additional servers could be added to their datacenter to accomodate the load.
Extra credit: 1 server should be able to handle ~500 applicants. There are ~30K applicants participating in the Match. Would just these additional servers on their own be enough to accomodate ALL applicants?

 

[Rocketman90251]

Is anyone else as pissed as I am? I had to scramble and didn't get a copy of the scramble list until after 5pm Tuesday because there servers were down. By then, virtually all programs were filled and I wasn't able to get into a program.

Now, because of this lousy Match/Scramble idiocy I'll have to wait until next year and try again.

Does anyone know if ACGME or NRMP plans to do anything for the people who weren't able to match because of this Fiasco?

 

[Rocketman90251]

I didn't match and I didn't get a position in the Scramble because I didn't get a copy of the scramble list until late Tuesday evening. By then, almost all programs were filled.

SO, I can say with certainty that at least one person got ROYALLY SCREWED.