Nucleophilicity question

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anyusernamenottaken

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in the EK book pg 80 in chem I have a question that I don't understand. it asks which molecule is a better nucleophile. ethanol or ethanethiol and says ethanol is a better one b/c is more electronegative.

am I wrong but aren't electronegivity and nucleophallcity opposing terms? don't they follow opposing trends on the p-table? IE electroneg increases up and to the right and nucleophalicity increasing down and to the left of the p-table

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Not quite opposing. Lets take for example an Sn1 reaction (leaving group has left and nucleophile is attracted to carbocation). Since we're working with a carbocation here (+ charge) you want something with a negative charge to satisfy it (more negative the better). How do you get a more negative charge you ask -> electronegative atom. In this case, you are right that you need to follow periodic table trends to see that Oxygen is more negative than Sulfur. Therefore, ethanol is a better nucleophile.
 
Not quite opposing. Lets take for example an Sn1 reaction (leaving group has left and nucleophile is attracted to carbocation). Since we're working with a carbocation here (+ charge) you want something with a negative charge to satisfy it (more negative the better). How do you get a more negative charge you ask -> electronegative atom. In this case, you are right that you need to follow periodic table trends to see that Oxygen is more negative than Sulfur. Therefore, ethanol is a better nucleophile.
but I thought I read that high electro neg also ment that the atom wouldn't want to share the e- with the carbocation since they are more tightly help in electro neg atoms....or am I completely wrong
 
It doesn't necessarily want to but the carbocation is just gonna nab it because of how unhappy a carbocation is. The strength of the nabbing is dependent on how great the magnitude of the two charges is (more electronegative -> more negative partial charge -> greater charge disparity -> more nabbing power)
 
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but I thought I read that high electro neg also ment that the atom wouldn't want to share the e- with the carbocation since they are more tightly help in electro neg atoms....or am I completely wrong
However, an electronegative atom won't want to share electrons with something its already bonded to. Once the electronegative atom (nucleophile) completes the Sn1/2 reaction, there will most likely (depending on structure) still be some partial charges because the electronegative atom is still electronegative.
 
It doesn't necessarily want to but the carbocation is just gonna nab it because of how unhappy a carbocation is. The strength of the nabbing is dependent on how great the magnitude of the two charges is (more electronegative -> more negative partial charge -> greater charge disparity -> more nabbing power)
ok thank you... so nucleophacility is somewhat synonymous with electronegivity?
 
Erm, only if you're talking about that single atom. For example, an oxygen is a good nucleophile, but a carbon next to a carbonyl is a decent electrophile (and this has nothing to do with the electronegativity of the carbon itself, only its position on the molecule)
 
Not quite opposing. Lets take for example an Sn1 reaction (leaving group has left and nucleophile is attracted to carbocation). Since we're working with a carbocation here (+ charge) you want something with a negative charge to satisfy it (more negative the better). How do you get a more negative charge you ask -> electronegative atom. In this case, you are right that you need to follow periodic table trends to see that Oxygen is more negative than Sulfur. Therefore, ethanol is a better nucleophile.

but I thought I read that high electro neg also ment that the atom wouldn't want to share the e- with the carbocation since they are more tightly in electro neg atoms....or am I completely wrong

Erm, only if you're talking about that single atom. For example, an oxygen is a good nucleophile, but a carbon next to a carbonyl is a decent electrophile (and this has nothing to do with the electronegativity of the carbon itself, only its position on the molecule)

Several good points have been raised here. I'll try to address them in turn. Here's the bottom line if you don't want to read further. Thiols are more nucleophilic than alcohols, all else being equal.

Here's the more nuanced explanation. Nucleophilicity and electronegativity are not equivalent concepts. Electronegativity is one thing to consider when looking at nucleophilicity but it does not by itself determine nucleophilicity. Since nucleophilicity is a kinetic phenomenon, you also have to consider steric environment, solvent caging, etc. when determining how nucleophilic something is. For instance, a potent nucleophile placed in a protic solvent will have its nucleophilicity attenuated due to solvation effects. So when you're comparing nucleophilicity, you need to keep all aspects of a molecule equivalent. That is, you couldn't fairly compare the nucleophilicity of tert-butyl-hydroxide with ethanethiol.

In this case, we can assume that these are in similar solvents and we know that they are similar sterically. So the only difference here is the atom - oxygen versus sulfur. Now, it doesn't make sense to talk about nucleophilicity of an atom. There's no such thing. No atom is ever by itself in a reaction (almost). Nucleophilicity of a single atom is meaningless. But we should look at electronegativity differences between those atoms. Sulfur is less electronegative than oxygen and therefore will hold onto its electrons less tightly. The direct corollary of this fact is that it will also more readily donate its electrons away. Thus, based on this fact and this fact alone, thiols will be more nucleophilic than alcohols and thiolates will be more nucleophilic than alkoxides. This is why nature chose to use acetyl-CoA as the quintessential natural nucleophile.

For a more thorough treatment, see here: Thiols And Thioethers — Master Organic Chemistry
 
I follow your logic but it is directly opposing the answer in the book.

The answer in the book is wrong. For several reasons. Not only is sulfur less electronegative than oxygen but also it is bigger so therefore more polarizable. The book may be confusing basicity and nucleophilicity. Alkoxides are more basic than thiolates (pka of ~16 vs. ~10.5).
 
in the EK book pg 80 in chem I have a question that I don't understand. it asks which molecule is a better nucleophile. ethanol or ethanethiol and says ethanol is a better one b/c is more electronegative.

am I wrong but aren't electronegivity and nucleophallcity opposing terms? don't they follow opposing trends on the p-table? IE electroneg increases up and to the right and nucleophalicity increasing down and to the left of the p-table

I'm pretty sure the book is wrong. Thiols are more nucleophilic than alcohols. So ethanethiol is a better nucleophile than ethanol.

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The problem with these books is that the explanations are not always written by PhD chemists. Any PhD chemist worth his salt should be able to answer this question correctly.
 
ok thank you all.
also the book just makes a broad statement like rank these molecules in order of nucleophilicity. wouldn't you need to know if the solvent is protic/aprotic in order to answer these types of questions?
 
ok thank you all.
also the book just makes a broad statement like rank these molecules in order of nucleophilicity. wouldn't you need to know if the solvent is protic/aprotic in order to answer these types of questions?
Yes, you are correct that it depends on many factors. The original question #80: "it asks which molecule is a better nucleophile. ethanol or ethanethiol"...did they give any other information? Because, if you are reacting ethanol and ethanethiol with a tertiary alkyl halide, ethanol is the better nucleophile. Question 80 seems to implying that it is a case of solvolysis (where the solvent is the nucleophile) which occurs predominately in SN1 reactions with tertiary alkyl halides. If that is the case, their answer is correct: ethanol has a higher dielectric constant and is the better nucleophile. They did not mention alkoxides and thiolates; if they did, then thiolates are better nucleophiles in polar protic solvents due the reasons mentioned above (larger molecules are less solvated, and therefore, are easier to strip off the solvated molecules to become naked in order to do a backside attack via SN2). In polar aprotic solvents, alkoxides are better nucleophiles than thiolates since stronger bases are better nucleophiles in polar aprotic solvents. Of course, the more hindered the alkyl halide substrate is (secondary or tertiary), the more likely it is to go via E2 with a strong base like alkoxides. As mentioned previously by others, it depends on the nature of the solvent, nucleophile, and type of alkyl halide substrate (methyl, primary, secondary, or tertiary). It is a continuum based on several factors. The original question that the book asked was a poor question if they did not give any other information.
 
Because, if you are reacting ethanol and ethanethiol with a tertiary alkyl halide, ethanol is the better nucleophile. Question 80 seems to implying that it is a case of solvolysis (where the solvent is the nucleophile) which occurs predominately in SN1 reactions with tertiary alkyl halides. If that is the case, their answer is correct: ethanol has a higher dielectric constant and is the better nucleophile.

Neither will be the "better" nucleophile in an SN1 reaction. Nucleophilicity is measured by reaction rate since it is a kinetic phenomenon. By definition, a stronger nucleophile will increase the reaction rate. Since the rate-limiting step in SN1 reactions is the departure of the leaving group, increased nucleophilicity will not increase the rate of an SN1 reaction. If you go and measure SN1 reaction rates in a lab, you'll get the same kobs for strong and weak nucleophiles in SN1 reactions.

They did not mention alkoxides and thiolates; if they did, then thiolates are better nucleophiles in polar protic solvents due the reasons mentioned above (larger molecules are less solvated, and therefore, are easier to strip off the solvated molecules to become naked in order to do a backside attack via SN2). In polar aprotic solvents, alkoxides are better nucleophiles than thiolates since stronger bases are better nucleophiles in polar aprotic solvents.

Thiols and alcohols are directly analogous to their thiolates and alkoxides in terms of nucleophilicity because the same factors come into play. Solvation works in both cases.
 
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