"NYC doctor suicides raise concerns about treatment of resident physicians at Bronx hospital."

[Splenda88]

Residents have zero leverage in this game and that makes them easy target to be abused by bad programs. It's a sad state of affair.

NYC doctor suicides raise concerns about treatment of resident physicians at Bronx hospital

Their deaths have rocked Lincoln, part of the city’s public Health+Hospitals network, and have raised questions about the rigors — and management — of the residency program there.

www.nydailynews.com

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not that this takes away from it at all, but someone on Reddit says they know the guy on the right personally, and claims he actually died in a swimming accident, not suicide.

Regardless, one physician suicide is bad enough.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

It's the infamous Lincoln Medical Center.

I'm surprised more people haven't killed themselves at that malignant **** hole.

 

[Splenda88]

It's the infamous Lincoln Medical Center.

I'm surprised more people haven't killed themselves at that malignant **** hole.

This program seems to have a lot of issues, so why ACGME has not put a microscope on them.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

This program seems to have a lot of issues, so why ACGME has not put a microscope on them.

Beats me. Everyone knows that place has had issues for a long ass time. I refused to apply there for my prelim intern year because I heard the horror stories. And that was 6 years ago.

But, they could be gaming their ACGME surveys by threatening the residents if they say anything bad about the program. A lot of these bottom of the barrel programs are full of FMGs who feel that they will be SOL if they get kicked out.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Beats me. Everyone knows that place has had issues for a long ass time. I refused to apply there for my prelim intern year because I heard the horror stories. And that was 6 years ago.

But, they could be gaming their ACGME surveys by threatening the residents if they say anything bad about the program. A lot of these bottom of the barrel programs are full of FMGs who feel that they will be SOL if they get kicked out.

On Reddit, the consensus is they blackmail the FMGs who need visas.

 

[FutureInternist]

On Reddit, the consensus is they blackmail the FMGs who need visas.

Could they not report after they have graduated?
It wouldn’t make their training moot, and still give ACGME the “ammo” they need

Also… did they really add a ping-pong table to the break room after the Chinese resident committed suicide?!?!?

 

[Splenda88]

Could they not report after they have graduated?
It wouldn’t make their training moot, and still give ACGME the “ammo” they need

The sad thing is that most people usually move on and forget about the ones that are left behind after graduation.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Could they not report after they have graduated?
It wouldn’t make their training moot, and still give ACGME the “ammo” they need

Also… did they really add a ping-pong table to the break room after the Chinese resident committed suicide?!?!?

I think for most of them, it's just like a gut through it and then forget about it when it's over kind of thing. People are trying to encourage them to record meetings they have with PDs, etc. since NY is a 1-party state, that way they have evidence they can give to ACGME.

 

[deleted1081396]

There should really be a crowdsourced document that tracks resident suicides by program.

 

[Chelsea FC]

Could they not report after they have graduated?
It wouldn’t make their training moot, and still give ACGME the “ammo” they need

Also… did they really add a ping-pong table to the break room after the Chinese resident committed suicide?!?!?

People kinda just dont want to rock the boat. After finishing u just wanna forget it happens and move on.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

There should really be a crowdsourced document that tracks resident suicides by program.

Probably should be one. I get the feeling that some programs/hospitals want to keep suicides under wraps because it's bad PR.

 

[Lawpy]

Probably should be one. I get the feeling that some programs/hospitals want to keep suicides under wraps because it's bad PR.

Yet the same evil programs are willing to waste everyone's time by requiring wellness lectures

 

[FutureInternist]

Yet the same evil programs are willing to waste everyone's time by requiring wellness lectures

Wellness lectures in school, residency, fellowship and now my job are ALL the same.

How can YOU deal with stress better?
Never how can WE help reduce your stress?

It’s a “check mark” thing that they have to do since it “shows they care”

Also…… NEVER use your program’s recommended psychiatrist or go to anyone that they know, cos just the act of asking for help is enough for them to use against you when they want to

 

[Lawpy]

Wellness lectures in school, residency, fellowship and now my job are ALL the same.

How can YOU deal with stress better?
Never how can WE help reduce your stress?

It’s a “check mark” thing that they have to do since it “shows they care”

Also…… NEVER use your program’s recommended psychiatrist or go to anyone that they know, cos just the act of asking for help is enough for them to use against you when they want to

... i don't think programs can get away with breaking HIPAA

 

[FutureInternist]

... i don't think programs can get away with breaking HIPAA

Jobs always ask you if you have ever rec’d mental health treatment.
If one were to go to the PD and ask for recs etc then its not protected.

Between those two, best not to tell anyone

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Happens a lot in investment banking, private equity, big law as well. I think it’s probably due to high stress of these careers

 

[deleted1064759]

Imagine busting your arse for the Steps as an MD/attending in a foreign country with the glimmer of hope of one day coming to the US, only to come here and find out that residencies treat you terribly.

Genuinely feel for those at hospital systems that use VISAs to control FMGs.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

Not that this takes away from it at all, but someone on Reddit says they know the guy on the right personally, and claims he actually died in a swimming accident, not suicide.

Regardless, one physician suicide is bad enough.

I saw that too.. But on his social media right before he died he wrote something like " Dont ever forget me"

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I saw that too.. But on his social media right before he died he wrote something like " Dont ever forget me"

Yeah I read that. Hard to say. People sometimes just write angsty stuff on Facebook when they’re feeling sad. It’s possible the person on Reddit just doesn’t want to believe it though.

 

[Thesimplelifeofamyloid]

Yeah I read that. Hard to say. People sometimes just write angsty stuff on Facebook when they’re feeling sad. It’s possible the person on Reddit just doesn’t want to believe it though.

Serious question. Is there the possibility that some residents don't want their program to go under negative light in fears it might shut down? If a program shuts down, is it easy to be put in a different program, especially if you're a IMG?

 

[Animalcules]

This program needs to be closed. Disgusting.

 

[El-Rami]

But, they could be gaming their ACGME surveys by threatening the residents if they say anything bad about the program. A lot of these bottom of the barrel programs are full of FMGs who feel that they will be SOL if they get kicked out.

Then the obvious solution is to reform the entire system so people are less vulnerable to abuse by malicious actors.

Some ideas:

1. Have enough GME spots to guarantee that every AMG gets a position.
2. Set aside a set number of GME spots for foreign graduates and create a separate match system.
3. In addition to the above, abolish the US Caribbean IMG - US GME pipeline so that US citizens can no longer be exploited by Caribbean schools, thus eliminating the economic impact of taking out federal loans (funded by taxpayers) for people to go to expensive offshore schools, with about half of those people even getting a residency.
4. Better support infrastructure for residents and greater oversight of how programs treat their residents.
5. Consider decelerating post-graduate medical training to look more like the European model where residents work fewer hours over a longer timeframe.

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

Could they not report after they have graduated?
It wouldn’t make their training moot, and still give ACGME the “ammo” they need

Also… did they really add a ping-pong table to the break room after the Chinese resident committed suicide?!?!?

They could report after they graduate. The issue is that any state license or job will need a verification letter from them…for life, often needing the signature of the program director. You could go out guns blazing blasting the program but you don’t want them dragging their feet when you need them years down the road. They still own a small piece of you after you leave unfortunately.

 

[CleverAdvisor]

Yikes.. definitely removed Lincoln from my saved programs on ERAS

As an IMG I think we have the mindset of "If I can only get into residency everything will be fine!" How wrong that is..

 

[El-Rami]

They could report after they graduate. The issue is that any state license or job will need a verification letter from them…for life, often needing the signature of the program director. You could go out guns blazing blasting the program but you don’t want them dragging their feet when you need them years down the road. They still own a small piece of you after you leave unfortunately.

Then they need to change that. That gives the program too much power over people, even after they graduate.

 

[FutureInternist]

They could report after they graduate. The issue is that any state license or job will need a verification letter from them…for life, often needing the signature of the program director. You could go out guns blazing blasting the program but you don’t want them dragging their feet when you need them years down the road. They still own a small piece of you after you leave unfortunately.

Wait.. really?
I haven’t had to get in touch with my PD for any reason.
Maybe FMGs have different requirements…
Even so, it could be done anonymously could it not?

 

[Lawpy]

They could report after they graduate. The issue is that any state license or job will need a verification letter from them…for life, often needing the signature of the program director. You could go out guns blazing blasting the program but you don’t want them dragging their feet when you need them years down the road. They still own a small piece of you after you leave unfortunately.

Man we need massive reform. State laws are broken if malignant PDs have this much power

 

[FutureInternist]

Then the obvious solution is to reform the entire system so people are less vulnerable to abuse by malicious actors.

Some ideas:

1. Have enough GME spots to guarantee that every AMG gets a position.
2. Set aside a set number of GME spots for foreign graduates and create a separate match system.
3. In addition to the above, abolish the US Caribbean IMG - US GME pipeline so that US citizens can no longer be exploited by Caribbean schools, thus eliminating the economic impact of taking out federal loans (funded by taxpayers) for people to go to expensive offshore schools, with about half of those people even getting a residency.
4. Better support infrastructure for residents and greater oversight of how programs treat their residents.
5. Consider decelerating post-graduate medical training to look more like the European model where residents work fewer hours over a longer timeframe.

Agree with all EXCEPT 5.
Training is already so long.

If someone does Peds, its 3 years, IM is 3 years, but MedPeds is 4 years?!?
So how much learning does one miss out on and does it really matter?

Just like 4th year of medical school… or for sure after the match, there’s lots of downtime in our training that can be streamlined.

I know some places are doing a faster school and Residency if you commit to FM, perhaps something like that for folks who know what they want to do?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Wait.. really?
I haven’t had to get in touch with my PD for any reason.
Maybe FMGs have different requirements…
Even so, it could be done anonymously could it not?

You haven't, but I'd be surprised if none of the credentialing people at the jobs you've had didn't.

 

[Splenda88]

Agree with all EXCEPT 5.
Training is already so long.

If someone does Peds, its 3 years, IM is 3 years, but MedPeds is 4 years?!?
So how much learning does one miss out on and does it really matter?

Just like 4th year of medical school… or for sure after the match, there’s lots of downtime in our training that can be streamlined.

I know some places are doing a faster school and Residency if you commit to FM, perhaps something like that for folks who know what they want to do?

The argument will be: If we do spend only 8 yrs (3 prereqs, 3 med school and 2 residency) for IM/FM/Peds etc.., there nothing that differentiate us from NP/PA. I think it is a flaw argument because what differentiate us from mid levels is depth of knowledge, drive, humility etc...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The argument will be: If we do spend only 8 yrs (3 prereqs, 3 med school and 2 residency) for IM/FM/Peds etc.., there nothing that differentiate us from NP/PA. I think it is a flaw argument because what differentiate us from mid levels is depth of knowledge, drive, humility etc...

Exactly. Some PA programs are 3 years long. That doesn’t make them equivalent to MDs/DOs because it’s not the time, it’s the depth.

 

[futureapppsy2]

... i don't think programs can get away with breaking HIPAA

They can, in a number of loopholes.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The argument will be: If we do spend only 8 yrs (3 prereqs, 3 med school and 2 residency) for IM/FM/Peds etc.., there nothing that differentiate us from NP/PA. I think it is a flaw argument because what differentiate us from mid levels is depth of knowledge, drive, humility etc...

I always appreciate how you assume that these other specialties for which you have minimal knowledge can be cut by a year with no adverse effects.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I always appreciate how you assume that these other specialties for which you have minimal knowledge can be cut by a year with no adverse effects.

I think he’s saying you can’t cut them.

 

[Splenda88]

I think he’s saying you can’t cut them.

I am saying you CAN...

 

[Splenda88]

I always appreciate how you assume that these other specialties for which you have minimal knowledge can be cut by a year with no adverse effects.

I probably have minimal kowledge of peds, but not FM. Of course I have some knowledge of IM since I am an internist.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I am saying you CAN...

Oh, duh.

 

[BidingMyTime]

... i don't think programs can get away with breaking HIPAA

There are LOTS of exceptions to HIPAA. HIPAA is not some sacrosanct principle. One exception, is if the public would potentially be in danger by keeping the medical information private. This is pretty vague, but would allow any counselor/psychologist/psychiatrist you see to contact your program.

 

[Mass Effect]

Not that this takes away from it at all, but someone on Reddit says they know the guy on the right personally, and claims he actually died in a swimming accident, not suicide.

Regardless, one physician suicide is bad enough.

Swimming death doesn't necessarily mean it was an accident or that it wasn't a suicide. The Reddit poster may want to believe that though.

To whoever brought it up, program directors are not restricted by HIPAA. HIPAA applies to your healthcare providers, not your boss who you voluntarily told about seeking help.